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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26393421 - 12/21/19 02:27 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Characterizing a partisan outcome that a partisan system produced as being 'partisan' is redundant. 

It's a partisan system.  And the republican's votes in the house on this impeachment can be characterized in the same way.  Partisan.  They are both apparently behaving in a partisan fashion.  Any misgivings about the partisan quality of this outcome cuts each way equally, therefore it is pointless



You are losing me. Let me go back over the ground already covered in case I am missing something. I think we first agreed that the Constitution describes impeachment as a non partisan measure?

Then you explained that, in your view, the Dems impeachment motion in the House was not partisan. Although the vote went largely along party lines, to attribute a partisanship motivation to the Democrats initiating it would be one dimensional and have no depth.

Then, presented with a hypothetical scenario of a similar voting outcome in the Senate, you claimed that it would still not be partisan but if the Republicans did not manage to convert  you to their viewpoint they would be corrupt. However, when pressed further, you are now admitting that all outcomes produced by the current political system are partisan. Where am I misinterpreting your views?

Sorry if it looks like I am ignoring your comments on the merits of the impeachment case. I am just trying to keep this thread focused on whether the impeachment process was the right vehicle to use in this case, and not on what Trump did or did not do.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26393427 - 12/21/19 02:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:

Was the Clinton impeachment bipartisan?

is the impeachment process for Trump bipartisan, or is the support for him that sought to obstruct impeachment bipartisan?
Would there have been a threshhold for Trump's activities that qualified him for impeachment that the Republicans would have actually sided with, or is Impeachment going to be bipartisan as long as the system is two-party?




There were five Democrats voting to impeach Clinton so in that sense it was bipartisan.

The motion to impeach Trump was partisan because no Republican representatives supported it. His defence was less partisan because a handful of Dems crossed the floor. Impeachment was devised as a bipartisan measure to prevent this exact scenario i.e. one party controlling the House impeaching a president without any support from the opposition representatives.

There is no threshold of guilt above which a partisan impeachment becomes constitutional. My speculation is that the Fathers assumed that an obvious act of high crimes or misdemeanor will always generate bipartisan pushback. It clearly did not happen in this case.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 4
    #26393428 - 12/21/19 02:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This is completely made up. Trump has been impeached. Deal with it.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393433 - 12/21/19 03:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The partisanship quality is redundant to take note of within a partisan system.  It's often going to be apparently partisan. 

Of course the republican congress voted unanimously.  They already know he's getting acquitted by the senate, and they know he'll spend the rest of his life saying horrible things about them, especially anytime they are trying to get elected.

That's your partisan influence here.

The impeachment was based on what came out of a whistleblower's complaint, not on the fact that Trump is not a Democrat.  If the democrats case was 'trump is not a republican therefore he must be impeached', that would not be constitutionally valid.  Neither would trying to remove him because it would facilitate their agenda.

The constitution does not say all parties have to agree or even that there must be support from another party.

Alexander Hamilton said impeachable offences “are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men … from the abuse or violation of some public trust.”

I think that's validating to this impeachment.


Edited by JohnRainy (12/21/19 03:08 AM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 2
    #26393437 - 12/21/19 03:04 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:

Was the Clinton impeachment bipartisan?

is the impeachment process for Trump bipartisan, or is the support for him that sought to obstruct impeachment bipartisan?
Would there have been a threshhold for Trump's activities that qualified him for impeachment that the Republicans would have actually sided with, or is Impeachment going to be bipartisan as long as the system is two-party?




There were five Democrats voting to impeach Clinton so in that sense it was bipartisan.

The motion to impeach Trump was partisan because no Republican representatives supported it. His defence was less partisan because a handful of Dems crossed the floor. Impeachment was devised as a bipartisan measure to prevent this exact scenario i.e. one party controlling the House impeaching a president without any support from the opposition representatives.

There is no threshold of guilt above which a partisan impeachment becomes constitutional. My speculation is that the Fathers assumed that an obvious act of high crimes or misdemeanor will always generate bipartisan pushback. It clearly did not happen in this case.




So ultimately it appears to be the case that partisan split on impeachment is not meaningful
as one party can completely stall legitimate process by voting against it, even if it is a sound measure for impeachment
it's not about what is best for the country or what citizens want, it becomes an issue of two-party tug of war
:shrug:

Think that Tulsi Gabbard had the "best" opposition position by voting present rather than against
she recognized the issue was not valid to vote against, but did not want to be involved in a partisan split
it seems that Republicans that similiarily cared about their country, more than about sticking it to the Democrats, would have also opted to vote present rather than against


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26393448 - 12/21/19 03:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
The partisanship quality is redundant to take note of within a partisan system.  It's often going to be apparently partisan. 

(...)

The impeachment was based on what came out of a whistleblower's complaint, not on the fact that Trump is not a Democrat.  If the democrats case was 'trump is not a republican therefore he must be impeached', that would not be constitutionally valid.  Neither would trying to remove him because it would facilitate their agenda.

(...)

Alexander Hamilton said impeachable offences “are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men … from the abuse or violation of some public trust.”





The partisan / bipartisan distinction is fully relevant in a partisan political system. Bipartisan motions, as rising above the political divisions, carry more authority and can be expected to attract a wider popular support. This is why impeachment, which would otherwise stir social divisions, was meant to be an exclusively bipartisan proposition.

The impeachment was not put in motion by the whistleblower but by the Dems - without any bipartisan support. They did it precisely to facilitate their political agenda of, well - getting rid of Donalds Trump.

Alexander Hamilton said that impeachment is not supposed to be a partisan motion, which this one clearly was


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26393453 - 12/21/19 03:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
So ultimately it appears to be the case that partisan split on impeachment is not meaningful
as one party can completely stall legitimate process by voting against it, even if it is a sound measure for impeachment
it's not about what is best for the country or what citizens want, it becomes an issue of two-party tug of war
:shrug:

Think that Tulsi Gabbard had the "best" opposition position by voting present rather than against
she recognized the issue was not valid to vote against, but did not want to be involved in a partisan split
it seems that Republicans that similiarily cared about their country, more than about sticking it to the Democrats, would have also opted to vote present rather than against




Impeachment was supposed to be an exclusively bipartisan notion precisely to prevent it from becoming a political tug-of-war. As I speculated above, the Fathers probably assumed that a "legitimate" process would always attract bipartisan support.

I also mentioned in one of my posts that Tulsi took the moral high ground in the whole affair.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393455 - 12/21/19 03:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
So ultimately it appears to be the case that partisan split on impeachment is not meaningful
as one party can completely stall legitimate process by voting against it, even if it is a sound measure for impeachment
it's not about what is best for the country or what citizens want, it becomes an issue of two-party tug of war
:shrug:

Think that Tulsi Gabbard had the "best" opposition position by voting present rather than against
she recognized the issue was not valid to vote against, but did not want to be involved in a partisan split
it seems that Republicans that similiarily cared about their country, more than about sticking it to the Democrats, would have also opted to vote present rather than against




Impeachment was supposed to be an exclusively bipartisan notion precisely to prevent it from becoming a political tug-of-war. As I speculated above, the Fathers probably assumed that a "legitimate" process would always attract bipartisan support.

I also mentioned in one of my posts that Tulsi took the moral high ground in the whole affair.




assuming bipartisan support seems like a strong, well, assumption

Does the house have any third-party or non-affiliated/non-partisan representatives not beholden to party voting lines?

would think that their positions prolly serve as the most powerful barometer for relative validity of impeachment in this scenario
as they don't have to worry about ostracization by their party for not following a party position
they are outside of the tug of war

to my comprehension, third-party is basically forced out of the US political system tho

agree with Tulsi taking the moral high ground tho, it is a shame so many Republicans insisted on partisan tactics instead of recognition of the issues at play


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26393458 - 12/21/19 03:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The one independent in the house voted for impeachment.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393461 - 12/21/19 03:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The one independent in the house voted for impeachment.




that would more or less settle it in my mind, then

can prolly be assumed from the start that Republicans would not vote to impeach one of their (recently adopted) own

someone who does not have to answer to the elite of the party before the people of the nation is prolly the most in line with the Founding Fathers' values


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393463 - 12/21/19 03:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Impeachment was supposed to be an exclusively bipartisan notion




You are making this up.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26393464 - 12/21/19 03:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

koods said:
The one independent in the house voted for impeachment.




that would more or less settle it in my mind, then

can prolly be assumed from the start that Republicans would not vote to impeach one of their (recently adopted) own

someone who does not have to answer to the elite of the party before the people of the nation is prolly the most in line with the Founding Fathers' values



He left the Republican Party earlier this year. He’s actually quite conservative and was originally elected as a tea party candidate.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods] * 1
    #26393470 - 12/21/19 04:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

koods said:
The one independent in the house voted for impeachment.




that would more or less settle it in my mind, then

can prolly be assumed from the start that Republicans would not vote to impeach one of their (recently adopted) own

someone who does not have to answer to the elite of the party before the people of the nation is prolly the most in line with the Founding Fathers' values



He left the Republican Party earlier this year. He’s actually quite conservative and was originally elected as a tea party candidate.




Most awesome Republican I've known decided he would rather die early than support Trump as the party candidate
:zappaisgod:


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393473 - 12/21/19 04:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Alexander Hamilton wrote

Quote:

impeachment “will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other.”

And: “In such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.”




That's not even about republicans and democrats.  He's talking about the breakdown of reason as people consolidate into camps of opinion on an inflaming question at hand.

There is nothing in the constitution that says all parties must be represented in an affirmative vote to impeach.  Its a majority in congress that is required.

And there were demonstrations of guilt, as Alexander Hamilton would have wanted.  The Senate has not yet resolved to demonstrate any innocence though, even thought it plans to acquit.  Why is the senate not demonstrating innocence as Alexander Hamilton would have wanted?  The senate's behaviour is Hamilton's fear.  It's using comparative strength of parties rather than demonstrating innocence to get Trump's acquittal.

As Mr Hamilton said, impeachments should not be partisan.  They should demonstrate guilt or innocence to reach their conclusions.  The congress has done that, the senate plans not to.


Edited by JohnRainy (12/21/19 04:17 AM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393483 - 12/21/19 04:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

He seems to be just observing that there will be a partisan divide, but the strength of the case is what matters.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393488 - 12/21/19 04:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The nature of the parties he's talking about here is derived from the effect the impeachment will have on the 'whole community'.

This quote would indicate that he considers a congress made up of whatever parties the 'whole community', rendering affiliation to a political party irrelevant, since the feared irrational parties that 'seldom fail' to form here during impeachment come from 'friendly or inimical' tendencies, rather than political party affiliation, which conveniently invalidates this latest diversion from the question at hand that Trump wants to make sure nobody thinks about.

Yes there will be partisanship but not the kind based on being an R or a D.  It's partisanship of inimicals and friendlies.

Trump does not want the senate to demonstrate his innocence.  The senate does not want demonstrate his innocence.  Alexander Hamilton was afraid this might happen.


Edited by JohnRainy (12/21/19 05:30 AM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393703 - 12/21/19 08:31 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Its an intereating viewpoint. Did the Dems of the House "abuse" their powers by leading impeachment? Or did the Republicians abuse their power by supporting Trump's actions?

It would appear that both sides are biased in their views. Of course i side with Democrats as i see Trump clearly abusing his Position as President for personal gain in the 2020 election then covering it up by blocking access from Congress. That is clear to me.

You would think that Republicans would also see this clear abuse of power by Trump, but from the House vote, this is clearly not the case and it highlights the bias nature of both political parties. If Trump was a Democratic (purely hypothetical), would the House votes be just the opposite? With Democrats supporting him and Republicans wanting impeachment? Its hard to say but it would seem yes, it would be partisan support.

To me, the soley Democratic support for impeachment shows how the US political system is broken and needs a new design. To have only Democratic support in the House shows that there is clearly bias in the interpretation of what is considered "Presidental Abuse of Power" and Republicans are just not seeing the bigger issue at hand here.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26393718 - 12/21/19 08:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Trump could never have succeeded as a democrat


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393894 - 12/21/19 11:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'll ask an open question for anyone on the left about whether you think Clinton should have been impeached or not?

(I personally think it was a stupid issue to go after Clinton for, but then again, it seems he did lie under oath.)


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393955 - 12/21/19 12:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy wrote:

That's not even about republicans and democrats.  He's talking about the breakdown of reason as people consolidate into camps of opinion on an inflaming question at hand.

(...)

As Mr Hamilton said, impeachments should not be partisan.  They should demonstrate guilt or innocence to reach their conclusions.  The congress has done that, the senate plans not to.




This is precisely about the GOP and Dems - the two "pre-existing factions" enlisting "all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other.”

Whether the Senate convinces you or anyone else of Trumps innocence is besides the focus of this thread but, for what it is worth, there are those who believe there is no case to answer. Mr Hamilton wanted impeachment to be bipartisan to take the politically motivated judgement bias out of the equation as much as possible.


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