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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26393066 - 12/20/19 08:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
I read it...



The way you view Trump's conduct is reasonable and I take no issue with your motivation or logic. I personally do not share your conclusions and, more importantly, neither do the elected representatives of one of the two major political parties. Which is what makes the analysis of what is in the transcript off the topic of this thread.

Since the Dems control the House and GOP contributed no votes the impeachment was exactly the effort to "promote Congress’ political agenda" - the agenda being trying to get rid of Trump. Rather than being "politically neutral" the process was dripping in partisanship. I am not saying that the Dems reading of the events is wrong but merely that impeachment was not meant to be a vehicle of partisan politics and if the floor debate and vote count were not partisan I do not know what is.

Tulsi took a principled stand - Trump messed up but, in absence of the GOP support, the impeachment effort is unconstitutional.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393091 - 12/20/19 08:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Another opinion piece which outlines the same argument using different phrasing:

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/473849-two-house-articles-of-impeachment-fail-to-meet-constitutional-standards

Both (articles of impeachment) raise the “greatest danger,” in the words of Alexander Hamilton, that the decision to impeach will be based on the “comparative strength of parties” rather than on “innocence or guilt"


Given the partisan nature of the floor debate and subsequent vote the outcome indeed simply reflected the “comparative strength of parties”


Edited by Metoo (12/20/19 08:33 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 2
    #26393094 - 12/20/19 08:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Lol Alan Dershowitz. Child rapist defending another child rapist. Maybe we should ask Prince Andrew what he thinks.


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NotSheekle said
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Edited by koods (12/20/19 08:23 PM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393216 - 12/20/19 09:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm afraid that the nature of the system renders this sort of outcome being likely to occur at some point.

It's a partisan system.

There was one former republican who would certainly have voted with the democrats had he not renounced his party affiliation and became an independent.  It's not much but there is that.

"in the words of Alexander Hamilton, that the decision to impeach will be based on the “comparative strength of parties” rather than on “innocence or guilt"

I'd like to see what he would have to say about this situation.

Throughout this impeachment the Republicans have been trying everything from crashing meetings to ignoring subpoenas to comparing Trump to Jesus Christ in just a ridiculous display of blind partisanship.

The Dems aren't non-partisan either, but what they said made sense at least.  They were able to establish facts that illustrated an abuse of power.

That quote from Alexander Hamilton is a vaguely defined concern, and in order to invalidate this impeachment we are going to need something more concrete than that.  A statement from hundreds of years ago addressing a hypothetical situation is just that. 

As for Alan Dershowich, he has quite a long and sordid history of lending approval to despicable things.  I don't really value his opinion or anything.  He doesn't even make the case here that it's purely partisanship that playing out.  He just kind of implies it, because there is no evidence presented to indicate that it was partisan.  He does not address the facts of the case.

And neither do any of these people who oppose the impeachment.  They will not address the revelations of the testimony.


Going the way it did, with no republicans voting to impeach could just as easily illustrate the partisanship Alexander Hamilton was concerned with, and if anything the display put on by the republicans indicates that.


Edited by JohnRainy (12/20/19 10:15 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393239 - 12/20/19 10:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The independent did vote to impeach so it was bi-partisan. Maybe op will demand it was supposed to be tri-partisan now.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393250 - 12/20/19 10:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
I'm afraid that the nature of the system renders this sort of outcome being likely to occur at some point.




Agreed but we can still either accept it as a new normal or not. To me constitutional law is more like ethics it sets the high level guidelines but does not judge any particular acts or situations. If you think that one independent voting for impeachment makes the process non partisan good luck to you.

Your personal assessment of Trump's and GOP actions is interesting but not that relevant. In my world the nature of the House consensus was clearly partisan and impeachment was specifically not meant to be an exercise of partisan power so that is where it ends.

Of course if you believe that the Constitution is outdated then all of this does not matter - to you. All I am saying is that the whole process was completely partisan and as such violated the Constitutional parameters for impeaching a sitting president.


Edited by Metoo (12/20/19 10:44 PM)


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393257 - 12/20/19 10:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The independent did vote to impeach so it was bi-partisan. Maybe op will demand it was supposed to be tri-partisan now.




Bi-partisan: "involving the agreement or cooperation of two political parties that usually oppose each other's policies."


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26393307 - 12/20/19 11:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

If they wanted such a high standard, they would have made impeachment subject to a supermajority, like they prescribed for the senate. By making it a simple majority, they put up no barrier to purely partisan impeachments. That’s why the senate has more rigorous requirements.

I was reading the federalist papers and it’s interesting that the reason Hamilton supported holding the trial in the senate was because senators were not beholden to the electorate. We changed from appointing senators to electing them but never understood how that changed the nature of the senate as an impartial body.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393335 - 12/21/19 12:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There is nothing to directly indicate that this was driven primarily by partisanship.  Even if a handful of republicans would have gone along with it neither is that an indication that it wasn't driven primarily by partisanship.

Its a very unscientific accounting of phenomenon to characterize them strictly according to your fears.

The fact that 0 republicans voted in favour of impeachment is just a one dimensional fact with no depth to it to indicate anything one way or the other. 

Trump sympathizers are just throwing stuff out there now, FOXNEWS had Laura Ingram mischaracterize Noah Feldman as 'the democrat's lawyer', with the words "America's first fake impeachment" in the corner of the screen, and say "One could make the argument that Trump wasn't really impeached.  (pause)  At least not yet" then mischaracterize the Dems follow up to the impeachment vote while selectively quoting Mr. Feldman to make it sound like a procedural violation had occurred because the articles have not been sent to the senate yet.





You can read what Noah Feldman actually said here.

He was making the point that Pelosi's attempts to influence the senate trial are pointless because the senate can do whatever it wants here.  And if she never sends them over then I guess he's never impeached.  But there is nothing to indicate she won't do that eventually.

It's just more crap.  More injecting of confusion into the public narrative.  Like how GWB won Florida, or global warming is a hoax.  No addressing of the question. 

The votes never were counted in Florida, and the fact that CO2 absorbs infrared light that otherwise would head out to space, but rather is re-emitted sometimes to earth is never acknowledged.  And Trump's activities as revealed in the testimony are likewise not acknowledged.

You're free to judge the world according to your wit, as am I.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26393354 - 12/21/19 12:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
There is nothing to directly indicate that this was driven primarily by partisanship.  Even if a handful of republicans would have gone along with it neither is that an indication that it wasn't driven primarily by partisanship.
(...)
You're free to judge the world according to your wit, as am I.



We are indeed free to judge what we see as we please. Just for the benefit of my education: if during the Senate trial all Democrats vote for and all Republicans against deposing Trump you also will not view it as partisan?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393365 - 12/21/19 01:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe belief in the grounds for impeachment was bipartisan,  but resistance to impeachment was partisan.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393366 - 12/21/19 01:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Not partisan in the sense that there is nothing more to it than Trump isn't a Democrat so therefore they impeached him.

If the Repub's senate just rubber stamp his acquittal with no witnesses, and no proving his actions were not an abuse of power, and no nothing,  Id's use the word corrupt to describe it.

The Dems established a case.

It would be nice if the republicans could do the same.


Edited by JohnRainy (12/21/19 01:14 AM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393371 - 12/21/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You know what they say “the House of Representatives could impeach a ham sandwich”


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26393382 - 12/21/19 01:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Not partisan in the sense that there is nothing more to it than Trump isn't a Democrat so therefore they impeached him.

If the Repub's senate just rubber stamp his acquittal with no witnesses, and no proving his actions were not an abuse of power, and no nothing,  Id's use the word corrupt to describe it.

The Dems established a case.

It would be nice if the republicans could do the same.




Got it - so if the Senate vote splits along party lines it will not be partisan because who knows why all Democrats happened to vote yes and all Republicans no. If all Republicans vote against the motion without first meeting your standard of evidence they will be corrupt but still not partisan.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26393383 - 12/21/19 01:29 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn’t matter. The house has sole power of impeachment. Their actions are not subject to judicial review. Impeachment is whatever the house says it is.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393390 - 12/21/19 01:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
It doesn’t matter. The house has sole power of impeachment. Their actions are not subject to judicial review. Impeachment is whatever the house says it is.



No

If the House votes to impeach President Trump on grounds not authorized by the Constitution, its action, in the words of Hamilton, is void.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 3
    #26393402 - 12/21/19 01:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Says who

Hamilton is dead and he forgot to put that in the constitution


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26393406 - 12/21/19 01:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Characterizing a partisan outcome that a partisan system produced as being 'partisan' is redundant. 

It's a partisan system.  And the republican's votes in the house on this impeachment can be characterized in the same way.  Partisan.  They are both apparently behaving in a partisan fashion.  Any misgivings about the partisan quality of this outcome cuts each way equally, therefore it is pointless.

Id like to see the senate make their case is all.  Because the congress did actually do that. 

He is accused by Congress of abuse of power.  Witnesses testimony and expert opinion back this up.  It's a case.

The senate can address this, or the majority can turn it into something where they say he's just like Jesus or whatever and then maybe Trump will start complaining that appliances in this day and age don't use enough water.  Or whatever song and dance they pull to not address the question.

I want to know how a president can take his country's policy hostage for his own little games.  I'd like them to explain that to me.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26393414 - 12/21/19 02:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

New FOIA document dump from pentagon shows the White House put Ukraine aid on hold one hour after Trump’s perfect July 25 call with zelensky 🤔

https://publicintegrity.org/national-security/digging-ukrainedocs-omb-foia/this


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26393417 - 12/21/19 02:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
An angle not covered by the mainstream media:

So the Dems won the House and ended up with considerable political powers. But it cuts both ways - these powers are meant to be used only as prescribed in the Constitution.

It is clear that the Founding Fathers envisaged impeachment as a process applicable in transgressions so compelling that addressing them attracts bipartisan support. Despite no bipartisan support for the current motion the Dems pressed on and impeached Trump.

Now a question - was this not abuse of powers vested in the Dems by the voters?




Was the Clinton impeachment bipartisan?

is the impeachment process for Trump bipartisan, or is the support for him that sought to obstruct impeachment bipartisan?
Would there have been a threshhold for Trump's activities that qualified him for impeachment that the Republicans would have actually sided with, or is Impeachment going to be bipartisan as long as the system is two-party?


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