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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26424874 - 01/09/20 02:56 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

I mean it says “high crimes and misdemeanors” which is really vague, so it’s hard to argue the wording doesn’t include one crime or another...


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26424896 - 01/09/20 03:06 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

There weren't parties yet at that time although ideological factions existed


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: feldman114]
    #26424903 - 01/09/20 03:09 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
I mean it says “high crimes and misdemeanors” which is really vague, so it’s hard to argue the wording doesn’t include one crime or another...



I agree that an argument along these lines can be mounted - largely based on the analysis of the legal meaning of language, historical context and other writings of the Fathers but Psilynut2 expected me to produce a direct quote from the Constitution in support of a claim that impeachment should be bipartisan so let's see what he can come up with here...


Edited by Metoo (01/09/20 06:50 PM)


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26424970 - 01/09/20 03:56 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Andrew Johnson was impeached and almost removed for firing his war secretary. He needed approval from congress to do it . He was 1 vote away from being removed in his senate trial .
  Did the radical republicans at the time abuse their power for doing this to him?


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26424976 - 01/09/20 04:00 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Andrew Johnson was impeached and almost removed for firing his war secretary. He needed approval from congress to do it . He was 1 vote away from being removed in his senate trial .
  Did the radical republicans at the time abuse their power for doing this to him?




I have already answered a number of your questions so please do me a favour and offer your response to this one:

Where in the Constitution does it say that "abuse of power" or "obstruction of congress" are impeachable offenses? Please provide direct quotes featuring these exact terms in your response.


Edited by Metoo (01/09/20 04:03 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26424989 - 01/09/20 04:10 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Then why don’t you care about the exact words relating to impeachment . There nothing that says the opposing party has to like it .



I do - along with the historical context like other writings of the Fathers etc. This is what helps establish the intent of any document.

I have answered a few of your questions so here is one for you. Where is the Constitution does it say that "abuse of power" or "obstruction of congress" are impeachable offenses? Please provide direct quotes featuring these exact terms in your response.




Misdemeanor means bad behavior.

The house gets to say what is an impeachable offense


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26425005 - 01/09/20 04:19 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Where in the Constitution does it say that "abuse of power" or "obstruction of congress" are impeachable offenses? Please provide direct quotes featuring these exact terms in your response.






“””

Edit
Abuse of power or abuse of authority, in the form of "malfeasance in office" or "official misconduct", is the commission of an unlawful act, done in an official capacity, “””

Or a misdemeanor .

“” Obstruction of justice, in United States jurisdictions, is a crime consisting of obstructing prosecutors, investigators, or other government officials. Common law jurisdictions other than the United States tend to use the wider offense of perverting the course of justice.””

Obstruction of congress is simply obstruction of justice . A serious crime .
 

  Do you think there’s room  on the constitution to list every possible crime ? No thats why they put high crimes and misdemeanors. 
That’s a really stupid question .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (01/09/20 05:55 PM)


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26425030 - 01/09/20 04:32 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Where in the Constitution does it say that "abuse of power" or "obstruction of congress" are impeachable offenses? Please provide direct quotes featuring these exact terms in your response.






“””

Edit
Abuse of power or abuse of authority, in the form of "malfeasance in office" or "official misconduct", is the commission of an unlawful act, done in an official capacity, “””

Or a misdemeanor .

“” Obstruction of justice, in United States jurisdictions, is a crime consisting of obstructing prosecutors, investigators, or other government officials. Common law jurisdictions other than the United States tend to use the wider offense of perverting the course of justice.””

Obstruction of congress is simply obstruction of justice . A serious crime .
 

  Do you think there’s room  on the constitution to list every possible crime ? No that why they put high crimes and misdemeanors. 
That’s a really stupid question .




Can you quote the part of the constitution that lists "abuse of power" and "obstruction of congress" as impeachable crimes? If not what you said is just an opinion and that makes your posts irrelevant bullshit.


Edited by Metoo (01/09/20 04:33 PM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26425083 - 01/09/20 05:03 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

Article I, Section 2, Clause 5 provides: The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment. ...

That gives the house of reps authority to impeach on what it perceives to be high crimes and misdemeanours, as the constitution broadly defines it.

Within the above concept, abuse of power and obstruction of congress are valid charges.

What is the point of wanting it to say abuse of power and obstruction of congress specifically?  We all know it that doesn't.  Does that prove something?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 3
    #26425088 - 01/09/20 05:07 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

You don’t need a crime to be impeached. It’s not a criminal proceeding. It’s a political one.

What if the president just stopped working and he sleeps most days and plays video games. He hasn’t been to the office in two months. He won’t sign bills.

None of these things are crimes, but anyone can recognize that he should be impeached.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (01/09/20 05:09 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods] * 1
    #26425187 - 01/09/20 06:12 PM (4 years, 20 days ago)

You already said the whole deal.  Misdemeanor means bad behavior, as it did in english common law before the constitution was written.  Examples of misdemeanors that people have historically been impeached for include failure to spend lawfully appropriated funds.

Obviously bad behavior can be defined in the moment amd doesn't rely solely on precedence.

Also obviously, the lack of existing parties at the time of the constitutional convention precludes any constitutional mandate for bi, tri, or poly-partisan consensus


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26425329 - 01/09/20 07:46 PM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Article I, Section 2, Clause 5 provides: The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment. ...

That gives the house of reps authority to impeach on what it perceives to be high crimes and misdemeanours, as the constitution broadly defines it.

Within the above concept, abuse of power and obstruction of congress are valid charges.

What is the point of wanting it to say abuse of power and obstruction of congress specifically?  We all know it that doesn't.  Does that prove something?




It depends. Psilynut2 insisted that I produced a direct, literary quote from the Constitution in support of my claim that the Fathers envisaged impeachment to be a bipartisan process or else this thread is "irrelevant bullshit". In the discussion I never put quotation marks around bipartisan because it is not a direct quote from the Constitution but rather what I believe to be the best contemporary term embodying the intent of the Fathers. Just like the Constitution never used the term "abuse of power" it also never used "bipartisan" - in both cases we have to interpret the intent of the Fathers in the contemporary framework to establish what the text prescribes for the situation at hand.

I posit that the intent was not to initiate impeachment unless the case had universal support, beyond the political fractures, at the risk of the vote becoming a Presidential support poll in the Congress:

"In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt." (Hamilton)

In the current two-party system non-political effectively means bipartisan and this is the term I used, as best representing the spirit of the above text. Pelosi agreed (before being mobbed by her caucus):

“Unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path, because it divides the country”

As I twice pointed out to Psilynut2, two lawyers went on public record in support of this very interpretation of the Constitution which adds weight to my claims. All this fell on deaf ears and Psilynut2 was only interested in whether the word "bipartisan" is in the Constitution so I asked him to reflect if the articles of impeachment themselves have a literary support in the text (they do not).


Edited by Metoo (01/09/20 08:14 PM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26425387 - 01/09/20 08:31 PM (4 years, 19 days ago)

If the founding fathers were so adamant that an impeachment should be bipartisan, why didn't they say a vote to impeach should include representation from all parties that may form along these pre-existing factions Alex Ham spoke about?  Even he didn't say that it should and he was considering these things and supposedly is a man who knew what he was talking about.

The constitution gives the houses of reps broad powers of impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanours.  That addresses abuse of power and obstruction of congress in a way that's just because it's left open.  There is nothing anywhere that addresses this bipartisan requirement you keep thinking should exist.

Nancy Pelosi can have her thoughts and GWB era cretins will likely be crawling out from behind the fridge saying all kinds of crazy things for years to come too, if these lawyers are who I think you're talking about.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26425420 - 01/09/20 08:55 PM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Ha - exactly what I have been wondering about. Then I took it a step further and tried to write a legal clause which would encapsulate what we are discussing and failed! Whatever I came up with either was not general enough or could be too restrictive in some situations. Your attempt would fail in the current balance of power if both major parties agreed to impeach but Trump managed to bribe one of the independents into starting a party and opposing the motion.

So my current theory is that Hamilton found the best available solution - put extensive reasoning behind the brief mention of impeachment in the Constitution in the Papers. Please note that this issue is not incidental or of only oblique relevance - he is running a detailed and extensive analysis of the balance of power between the branches, explaining why alternatives to his preferred model are inferior. The guy was not dumb!


Edited by Metoo (01/09/20 09:09 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26425456 - 01/09/20 09:15 PM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Yeah, this isn't the United States of Hamilton.  A few other guys were in on the deal


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26425679 - 01/09/20 11:57 PM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Hamilton was a terrible President. I liked Franklin better.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26426076 - 01/10/20 06:51 AM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Hamilton was a terrible President. I liked Franklin better.




They were the two best Presidents ever. How else could they get their face on money.


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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26426103 - 01/10/20 07:28 AM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Hamilton wasn't a President, so Franklin would have to have been a better President by definition.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Enlil]
    #26426110 - 01/10/20 07:37 AM (4 years, 19 days ago)

I was going on my impression that they both were not Presidents. And I wanted to make fun of anyone who thought differently, cause that's what I do.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26426113 - 01/10/20 07:39 AM (4 years, 19 days ago)

Then I'll make fun of you for not knowing that Benjamin Franklin was President of Pennsylvania.

NOOB.


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