Home | Community | Message Board

Magic Mushrooms Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineCountHTML
Stranger
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/24/18
Posts: 557
Loc: Maine
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 1
    #26389103 - 12/18/19 04:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think that psychedelics can dismantle and/or destabilize the identity / personality structures of people with relatively poorly developed egos. This dismantling can persist following the trip. I have observed this first hand. This is certainly not the norm for most trippers. I suppose this is distinct from ego death, which a lot of people in the psychedelic community assume any breakdown of everyday perception of time and space must be ego death. Also seems to be a shiny ego badge of sorts, having “been there.”

Without any ego, we would not be able to navigate the world. So ego death I suppose is a bit of a misnomer. I think that dissolution, or even simply perturbation, which occurs in gradations, may be a better term.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSmartattack
C'mon man
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/21/18
Posts: 3,776
Loc: A thought
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: CountHTML]
    #26389187 - 12/18/19 05:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'd say something that sort of fits as a definition does happen. However people throwing it around is super annoying and likely many haven't reached that point or want to sound cool. I've never used the words personally and never will but.....

Also don't give two shits what most people say. :shrug:


--------------------
* Smarts videos :teacher:
* :thumbup: Planet of the APES:thumbup:
 
I'm a fungal white supremacist.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAldebaran
Psilo-Scribe
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 1,323
Loc: Altered States of Europe
Last seen: 5 days, 4 hours
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: footpath] * 1
    #26390385 - 12/19/19 09:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

footpath wrote: But, we, as a culture of thinkers and explorers who have an unquenchable thirst for better explanations, have moved on from every bit of mysticism we could.




Personally, I am not really interested in using mystical states to explain anything, I am more interested in how science attempts to explain mystical states. Far from having 'moved on' from mysticism, it is only very recently that neuroscience has developed any techniques that could investigate this type of conscious experience and see how it correlates with physical states in the brain.

:acidfire:

I think the term "mystical experience", as defined by William James in his The Varieties of Religious Experience may be a better candidate than 'ego death' to give a general definition of the kind of experiences we are talking about:

Quote:


From Wikipedia
James devotes two lectures to mysticism and in the lectures outlines four markers of mystical experience. These are:

    Ineffable: the experience is incapable of being described and must be directly experienced to be understood.
    Noetic: the experience is understood to be a state of knowledge through which divine truths can be learned.
    Transient: the experience is of limited duration.
    Passivity: the subject of the experience is passive, unable to control the arrival and departure of the experience.[10]

He believed that religious experiences can have "morbid origins" in brain pathology and can be irrational but nevertheless are largely positive.





'Ego death' is a type of mystical experience, but mystical experiences don't have to involve 'ego death'. I think one problem with the term 'ego death' is that it is either too broad (used in a general way to describe any kind of mystical or heavily dissociative state experienced on psychedelics) or too narrow (identifying it with bardo states of Tibetan Buddhism and very complicated conceptions of the state of 'no self').

As defined by James, you don't have to accept that these mystical states provide any 'authentic' religious experience, or link them to any particular religion, you are merely accepting that these states can be experienced.

Quote:

footpath wrote:
In the meantime, I have no objection to more mundane terms like perception distortion or psychic disorientation.
It puts a gauge on it without attaching grandiosity.
Saying, 'my perception was heavily distorted,' or, 'my psyche was fully disoriented,' isn't really giving way to any of those weird psychedelic accolades.




The problem with this is that the experience is not mundane or merely disorienting; people will happily use the term 'mindfuck' to express this. The states I am talking about are frequently grandiose and can be experienced as a very extreme state of mystical rapture and revelation. I think there are specific brain states coming into play which have a perceived effect as though someone was turning up a bunch of dials to eleven marked "profound experience!" "mystical ecstasy!" "presence of God!" and so on.

:owl:

I have a hunch that the mind generates these feelings due to whatever underlying brain activity is going on, and then "fills in" some of the content to match - i.e. your thoughts suddenly seem incredibly profound and then snowball into delusion. Not so much during any state of 'ego death' itself, when your internal 'train of thought' is suspended in some way, but certainly in other stages of this type of  trip.

Personally I don't have a problem using terms like depersonalization, de-realization, dissociation, delusion, mania and psychosis to describe these states, and they are usually how I describe my own trips in my trip journals. But describing them this way and having a very materialist outlook doesn't do anything to prevent (sometimes unwanted) mystical experiences occurring, which I then go on to express in vague terms as experiences of "God" in some way - feeling the presence of God, 'becoming' God and so on. Also thinking of psychedelic states as literally psychotic creates its own set of problems which led to the discarding of the 'psychotomimetic' label.

:psychoactiveair:

I've been reading an interesting PHD thesis by Erik Davis called "High Weirdness: Visionary Experience in the Seventies Counterculture" - you can find a link to the PDF on the Teeming brain blog, which is itself worth reading and has a fair bit of content related to psychedelics, consciousness and spirituality.

The thesis has a lot of interesting stuff in it, including a section on psychedelics explaining the background to the psychedelic movement which talks about Huxley, Leary's The Psychedelic Experience and so on. In a discussion about the way psychedelic states came to be identified as being mystical / religious experiences, there is this interesting quote:

Quote:


In his 1957 book Mysticism, Sacred and Profane, the Catholic religious scholar R.C. Zaehner attacked Huxley’s perennialist drift by insisting on the wide variations within mystical experiences, texts, and underlying ontologies. Zaehner’s motivation was to immunize theophanic Christian mysticism from its less authentic rivals. As such, Zaehner restricts the vision vouchsafed by mescaline to “nature mysticism,” a profane experience of unity or depersonalized identification with the material cosmos. Zaehner also finds these visionary experiences, which he identified with the manic side of bi-polar psychosis, among poets and madmen.





I find that interesting, and I've said before that I think high-dose states, including mystical states and delusional states, have similarities with mania.

So... I think talking about 'mystical states' may be more helpful in a lot of contexts than using the term 'ego death'. If somebody wants to know what 'ego death' is supposed to mean in basic terms, it would be easier to explain what a mystical state is and work from there. Saying you experienced a 'mystical state' does not mean a lot by itself, it simply expresses how something was experienced by you, so there is more room for it to encompass a wider variety of different experiences which can then be described in a bit more detail without the feeling that they have to conform to someone else's ideal of 'ego death' to have any value.

:feelsshroomyman:


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefootpath
ὕδωρχοίρος

Registered: 07/16/19
Posts: 1,367
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Aldebaran]
    #26390724 - 12/19/19 01:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Mystical experience does make some sense, especially in regard to it being unknown.
The rising and falling of the sun from day to day was obviously a mystical experience for humans until they started to work out its function.

My only rebuttal with that classification is that it may not hold a traditional mysticism for all.
Many may see it as something akin to unlocking the potential of your perception - the senses unbound. That doesn't have to associate with god or delusion or psychosis... necessarily.
But maybe that take on it, too, is mystical. However rooted in current knowledge it may be.
I mean, fuck, who's to say our current knowledge isn't still riddled in mystic practices? We worked out a lot of complex systems trying to reach or appease the early gods.

So maybe I'm misspoken when I say 'disorientation' or 'distorted'. Maybe I mean something more along the lines of un- or super-orientation. I'm no linguist or scholar, so those were more so just my own examples to express the nature of the terminology that could be used.
And my use of grandiosity wasn't to say that these weren't grandiose experiences for the individual. I meant that, by taking away the eulogistic aspect of these experiences, you could better tame the pompous nature of those who report back.

I appreciate your perspectives on this. You're very clearly much more well-read than I :lol:
I appreciate, too, where you draw influence from. Thanks for quoting and referencing. I really don't read enough and I'm starting to feel like a dunce about it. These things should prove to be quite the kindling.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 2 minutes
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: footpath]
    #26390832 - 12/19/19 02:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This thread has been fascinating, people ✊🏻

Really fascinating. And very thought-provoking. But just sitting reading Aldebaran’s post and footpath’s reply, I can’t help but get the feeling, what the heck are we even discussing, people? The big selling point behind psychedelics is the oneness, the acceptance, the feeling of the tribe. Look out for each other. The we are all as one; yet here we are, arguing about a term that everybody understands, and from OP’s tone, showing a little disdain for each other. Does it matter? I don’t want to stem intellectual debate, trip team, but where’s the love, where’s the understanding, where’s the acceptance? Are we, as a race, doomed? Even the psychedelic community is bickering....

Sorry for the rant, but if there’s no solidarity, how can we expect to persuade the world?

Can we talk more about:-

  • sure-fire ways to achieve “ego death”
  • benefits of the ego death
  • is it real, in any sense
  • is there anything beyond ego death
  • how to integrate an ego death into your normal reality


Mush love, trip team,
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShr00mEater
Strange
Male
Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26391064 - 12/19/19 05:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:

Can we talk more about:-

  • sure-fire ways to achieve “ego death”
  • benefits of the ego death
  • is it real, in any sense
  • is there anything beyond ego death
  • how to integrate an ego death into your normal reality


Mush love, trip team,
DJ Ed




I think that’s a perfect example of what bod was complaining about, tho.

It’s a loaded and outdated term, it is also not very descriptive. It’s seen as something like saying “I have attained enlightenment.” Leading to a multitude of problems. One example, is general communication of the psychedelic experience; look thru this thread, there are people voicing pro and con....you said it yourself “what are we even talking about here?”, it seems people can have entire conversations about ego death and have absolutely no idea what the other person means when they use the word. Another issue could be that it is easy to confuse “ego death” , however you interpret that word, with the entirety of experience, or even a particular goal within a persons psychedelic journey. Another interesting point is the second question in the list is : is ego death even real? the rest of the items on the list are all presumed upon the fact that “ego death” is in fact real, attainable and desirable to bring into ordinary life. I think this betrays a kind of “magical thinking”. For better or worse.


Totally agree on the love and acceptance stuff.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26391173 - 12/19/19 05:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
Even the psychedelic community is bickering....





That always happens.  :aliceshocker:


Quote:

DJ Ed said:
is there anything beyond ego death?





So-called "ego death" is just this fairly trivial milepost of sorts along the continuum.  Unfortunately it's mostly impossible - for very good reasons - to discuss the depths of the experience beyond the point of giving up rational thought, because it's, not rational.  Intensely interesting, worthy of study, but when you start trying to describe it - even here in what ought to be some sort of open minded forum - mostly what you get is just flat out disbelief.  But as Lao Tzu said, if foolish people did not laugh out loud when hearing of the Tao, it wouldn't be the Tao (or words to that effect).

tl;dr  It's just impossible to get it across unless you've been there yourself - in which case words are hardly necessary.


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (12/19/19 05:56 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefootpath
ὕδωρχοίρος

Registered: 07/16/19
Posts: 1,367
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26391182 - 12/19/19 05:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I see bod's point through the brashness of his delivery. I think.
The whole 'ego death' concept and the abuse of the term in the psychedelic community is pretty tiresome and rather contrary to the concept in the first place.
Many of those touting their psychedelic ego death are really just very high on themselves; of an inflated ego. I think that abuse of the term and the attitude that it takes to think that way creates more of a rift than bod calling people profoundly stupid.
If we are to persuade the world, what kind of flagship is one that doesn't know east from west?
If we are to persuade the world, we have to work with worldly concepts.
And why should we persuade the world when we could just find a place in it?
Not everyone likes milk, and there's no persuading them otherwise. But it still finds an acceptance and a it does so without cramming cheese down peoples' throats.

Both persuading the world and ego death were very much so driven by Leary and, personally, I think that had a fair amount of detriment to the cause of finding acceptance of this time-honored human tradition.

Language and conduct are important.

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Totally agree on the love and acceptance stuff.



^ absolutely.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleR.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time Flag
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: footpath]
    #26391446 - 12/19/19 08:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think there is also a safety issue as well that he is concerned about since this is a harm reduction site.

Asking how many grams it takes one to achieve ego death or the other term breakthrough is like asking the other person how many bowls of mashed potatoes does it takes for him get full.

All I personally know is there is no magic dosage to guarantee anything other than you just trip balls, trip balls and it was profound or you trip balls and go through profound hell or you black out.
The higher the dose, the higher the consequences whether good or bad.
Only 5 times in the last two years from weekly dosing with a couple months of breaks have I experienced things mystical and only one of the times have I felt out of body not looking through my eyeballs feeling complete. 
The kicker is the out of body experience was off a lower dose than normal, hours after the peak.:justdontknow:
After enough experiences I have found mind set is more of a determining factor of what kind of reward or punishment one may achieve and I no longer hold expectations with psychedelics anymore than I do of another human being; lest I become disappointed.
I no longer want to chase another persons dreams.

I seriously question the dosage aspect lately since no two trips are ever the same when the dose is the same range.

According to Micheal Pollan, researches do say they are a bit disappointed in Leary not just because he allowed them to escape the lab and glorified them back in the day but also all the trip reports. "It has muddied the water on the research". It also makes finding untainted subjects hard to find.
Once you read or hear of these reports, they become embedded in our conscience and bring about expectations that may be just a fabrication of someones else's experience or inflated ego.

This psychedelic romanticism may also be one of the reasons Bod has spoken up on the subject but along the lines of what I said before; I don't know what mashed potatoes tastes like for him which leaves the statement open for interpretation.
:jackiechanofapproval:


--------------------
-The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-

psychonautwiki.org

How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
    #26391603 - 12/19/19 09:48 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's kind of a fucked up thread when the OP just shouts out some shit and never comes back to clarify or justify it.  IMHO.  :laugh2:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShr00mEater
Strange
Male
Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26391643 - 12/19/19 10:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
It's kind of a fucked up thread when the OP just shouts out some shit and never comes back to clarify or justify it.  IMHO.  :laugh2:





Think of this: ol cranky pants posts this up, then for like a week now, it’s been going strong. Amazing! Everyone and his second cousin giving their opinion and explaining the secrets of ego death, or dispelling it’s myth. maybe even becoming offended over the way the subject was presented.

Even if there are good arguments being made, or rational sensibilities being offended...

... Clearly, everyone here has a fully functional ego. 👍

I think it’s a kinda funny thread. 😊


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26391650 - 12/19/19 10:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah but it's mostly a lot of guessing about what the OP was actually talking about.  Funny, yes, as is all talk about "ego death" and other misconceptions about psychedelics.  By most definitions everybody everywhere has a fully functional ego, it's just part of the normal brain.  You don't really need it but most people kind of like feeling that they're in charge of something.  It insulates them against the vast uncaring universe.

:okthatsfunny:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAzoth
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/23/19
Posts: 23
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26391655 - 12/19/19 10:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I keep hearing about this famous "ego death" and I keep thinking that it sounds like bullshit. It just sounds like the type of intensity of experience that a 30+ g trip would require.

BUT...

what the fuck

do I

actually know.

If people are having "ego death," let them have it. If they are full of shit, let it be.

And yes, as a post scriptum of sorts, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING an ego death is impossible without going into a coma... however, again, we come to a however, when you read about what Amanita Muscaria can do to people, I bet it sure feels real while you are going through it


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAzoth
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/23/19
Posts: 23
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: CountHTML]
    #26391665 - 12/19/19 10:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:
Without any ego, we would not be able to navigate the world. So ego death I suppose is a bit of a misnomer. I think that dissolution, or even simply perturbation, which occurs in gradations, may be a better term.




I think you are EXACTLY on the money here, so to speak.

Ego just gets waken up, and the complicated mystery of that what Carl Jung called Self takes over. I am guessing that if you, as Ego-Consciousness, is hell-bent on staying in pathological degrees of control (which is something that we are culturally conditioned to be), then you actually warrant a nice fucking ass-whooping by the dragon that you actually are. But most people, I believe, have enough natural wisdom and healthy correct psychological structuring to avoid such a massive confrontation with consciousness.

This is all, again, me speculating on what is happening to those people having never went through a wild experience like that.

I'm sure if I took 40 grams, I'll be in a lot of trouble myself. Thresholds vary, I suppose


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Azoth] * 1
    #26391686 - 12/19/19 11:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think this all comes from the common idea that "fighting the trip" is an ego-driven reaction, whereas going along with the flow takes you much further and results in dissolution or whatever you want to call it.  But until you trip heavily you don't have much idea about what actually happens, and it's really hard to explain to somebody who hasn't been through it, even though they might love hearing about it second hand.


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAzoth
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/23/19
Posts: 23
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26391705 - 12/19/19 11:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
I think this all comes from the common idea that "fighting the trip" is an ego-driven reaction, whereas going along with the flow takes you much further and results in dissolution or whatever you want to call it.  But until you trip heavily you don't have much idea about what actually happens, and it's really hard to explain to somebody who hasn't been through it, even though they might love hearing about it second hand.




I think that for a lot of people, they "fight the trip" unconsciously. It's kind of a mindfuck. Developmental, but resolvable. Through a bad trip, lol.

Also, define trip heavily.

10+

20+

30+ ?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Azoth]
    #26391769 - 12/20/19 01:03 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Tons of completely unnecessary insecurity being projected in this thread.

In a way, OP kind of served a purpose; there are several people set on figuring out what he meant, as if you should honestly care because...

...you should have built some level of confidence via the knowledge from your direct experience, if you were paying attention, from your various trips.

A single thread about semantics shouldn't be enough to make people doubt their experiences/argue endlessly; I thought that was the advantage of psychs?

Just my :twocents:.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 2 minutes
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26391986 - 12/20/19 06:29 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks, trip team. Your responses have really cheered me up (long week!). I’ve had some correspondence recently with Aldebaran, amongst others, who have really shone light on what might have happened 32 years ago when I had a full blown.........”ego death”. I’ve been trying to understand ever since.

I’m currently reading Michael Pollan; How To Change Your Mind. His overview of the history of psychedelics leading up to his decision to take the plunge is fascinating. But yes, I can fully understand people reading the old case notes and information, then expecting similar results in their own trips. I have been guilty of this, but with recent disciplined regular trips, I am building up my own experiences and understanding. The 2006 Johns Hopkins study, which I thought I knew everything about, is explained differently by Pollan: the 3 main guys setting up the trial were all aiming to prove psilocybin can occasion a mystical experience. So the sessions were all geared around creating an environment where a mystical experience was possible. And guess what, loads of the participants did have a mystical experience. Psilocybin studies since then in Europe have been more, “scientific”, by which I mean The sessions were more neutrally biased; just conduct the session and monitor the brain. In these trials, guess what: there were much fewer mystical experiences...

Take care, all.

And thanks for not flaming me, my comments were meant with good intentions.

DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAsuraS
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 3 hours, 1 minute
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: DJ Ed] * 2
    #26392396 - 12/20/19 12:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know that I am qualified to even post on this thread, because there are some
amazing insights here from people who can articulate them very well...but here it
goes..

RIPZappa says "only one of the times have I felt out of body not looking through my eyeballs"

This is almost every trip I have. The normal chit chat in my head goes away completely.
I am no longer observing the world as if my consciousness is behind my eyeballs. The experience
becomes very non-dualistic. The boundary between my mind and the outside world seems to
disappear. It is very much like being awake but in a dream. My mind feels
like it is on the outside of my head. I can open my eyes or close them, but I am in the same place
so it doesn't matter. I am no longer experiencing the world as "me" and "everything else".

That's as distilled as I can get it. And as I type this, I find I don't really need or
want to have a term that succinctly describes it. Also, I don't even know if ya'll are
talking about states even beyond this tbh.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShr00mEater
Strange
Male
Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Asura]
    #26392557 - 12/20/19 02:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asura said:
I don't know that I am qualified to even post on this thread, because there are some
amazing insights here from people who can articulate them very well...but here it
goes..

RIPZappa says "only one of the times have I felt out of body not looking through my eyeballs"

This is almost every trip I have. The normal chit chat in my head goes away completely.
I am no longer observing the world as if my consciousness is behind my eyeballs. The experience
becomes very non-dualistic. The boundary between my mind and the outside world seems to
disappear. It is very much like being awake but in a dream. My mind feels
like it is on the outside of my head. I can open my eyes or close them, but I am in the same place
so it doesn't matter. I am no longer experiencing the world as "me" and "everything else".

That's as distilled as I can get it. And as I type this, I find I don't really need or
want to have a term that succinctly describes it. Also, I don't even know if ya'll are
talking about states even beyond this tbh.




That’s a fairly good description of an experience that many would consider an “ego death”, however, others will reduce  it to “mere ego dissolution” or“merging with Christ Consciousness, but not full on Bodhi-Mode” or a thousand other descriptors. (Pun intended)

I am not against using the word “ego death”. It seems to me that there is “something” that people are trying to describe when they talk about it. I tend to think it is like a shortcut, or a heuristic, for describing something inherently hard to describe, as you even demonstrate in your post.

The terms meaning is fuzzy, it has been used for quite awhile and people will use it in a variety of different ways. That’s helpful and unhelpful. Helpful that it allows for a broader communication that doesn’t require details and can be open to interpretation. Unhelpful because of how much connotation is attached to both words. “Ego” and “death” are loaded words by themselves, then “ego death” adds on all the cultural and personal meanings that get people twisted up.

.... minutes later


Ok, I just talked myself out of it, I’m against using the term. It is cumbersome and prone to misuse. It clutters up communication. I will try not to use it going forward. I don’t personally know what people actually mean when they say it, I don’t think my ego ever died, or that I had an ego to begin with. So, obviously I don’t know what I mean when I say it, except to use it mostly as a vague reference point to mean “that awesome feeling experience you were expecting when you decided to eat those drugs”

Quote:

That's as distilled as I can get it. And as I type this, I find I don't really need or
want to have a term that succinctly describes it.




Really like this part. 👍


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* my brain keeps itching- doubts about psychedelic experiences
( 1 2 3 all )
kubix 6,616 40 08/26/04 09:10 AM
by THE KRAT BARON
* Today in psychedelic history (05/05) LearyfanS 5,865 18 05/05/23 05:05 AM
by Learyfan
* Psychedelics and messed-up things that happened to you in the past. Asante 1,261 17 05/06/21 02:13 PM
by redgreenvines
* How can we get psychedelics rescheduled?
( 1 2 all )
psikooz 4,004 20 03/17/04 05:01 PM
by Psiloman
* Psychedelics and Atheism
( 1 2 3 all )
ShroomyTunes 6,957 50 07/29/04 03:58 AM
by el_duderino
* Psychedelics and enlightenment
( 1 2 3 all )
LearyfanS 22,892 58 10/23/17 08:57 AM
by Ferdinando
* 'Coming out' of psychedelic experiences years later? jdawg333 874 4 05/06/21 06:26 AM
by redgreenvines
* What's the biggest danger of psychedelic use?
( 1 2 3 all )
silversoul7 8,688 50 12/17/15 11:48 PM
by ReaperAndRaven

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
2,614 topic views. 2 members, 56 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.