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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) * 1
    #26344166 - 11/25/19 08:37 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure many of you have seen the recent interview between Joe Rogan and Paul Stamets from last week:

(if you haven't seen it, its good, I recommend watching it)

In more than one spot, Paul mentioned that recent research has shown that mycelium actually has stronger health benefits than the mushroom fruit bodies.  He mentioned this about lion's mane and reishi specifically, but at one point he implies that this is generally true, because the mycelium needs the immune boosting compounds not the fruit body which only lives for a few days.

Slightly off topic but worth mentioning, from this same interview Paul presented new research showing a synergistic effect between lion's mane mycelium and a psilocybin analogue:


Anyway, this got me thinking more about growing mycelium to harvest in and of itself (without fruiting mushrooms from it).  Paul uses organic brown rice for this, is there a better choice? And what is the best technique for drying mycelium? Can the normal dehydrators most use for mushroom fruit bodies handle this (many grains would have absorbed moisture at this point)?

Regarding substrate - obviously you'd want to use something food grade, probably organic.  And when you harvest/dry and powder this, I would think a large percentage of your final product would be whatever you used for the substrate. 

Looking at Paul's product description:
The subject of recent studies, Lion’s Mane (Hericium erinaceus) is renowned for providing support to the brain and nervous system.  Host Defense® Lion’s Mane Powder is activated, freeze-dried, Certified Organic mycelium, with a full spectrum of constituents: polysaccharides (beta glucans, arabinoxylane, glucose, xylose, galactose and mannose), glycoproteins, ergosterols, triterpenoids and other myco-nutrients, which are essential for Supporting Natural Immunity.*

What does "activated" mean in this context?  And he says they are actually FREEZE DRYING it, this seems kind of extreme to me, I am guessing they would not go to the extra time and expense to freeze dry it unless this was really necessary?  I looked into buying a freeze dryer but they cost $2500

Under the product page tab for "videos" Paul says they are growing the mycelium on rice, this is also on the product label.  This also seems questionable to me, I guess food grade rice is quite abundant and cheap, but there are also concerns about arsenic content (even organic rice contains arsenic, and brown rice is worse than white).  I'm questioning if rice is the best substrate to produce a supplement that is supposed to be taken regularly for brain health? 

Also since you would be directly consuming this, would you still use any supplements (like gypsum) in the substrate?  I'm guessing no.

Looking at Paul's supplement facts label:

It implies that this is 100% "lion's mane mycelium" (serving size is 1.5g and lions mane listed ingredient is 1.5g), so are we to believe that the mycelium consumed all of the rice?  Or is this just a creative way of describing the product since the mycelium is eating the rice we're going to consider the whole thing just mycelium?  Oddly it separately (at the bottom) says "other ingredients: dried myceliated brown rice".  So another confirmation that the product contains brown rice.

I did do a bunch of searches and didn't find a lot of answers to these questions.  I found this post that describes how Aloha Medicinals does it:
Quote:

I was there (at Aloha) March 2012 for a month attending their scholarship program.  Below is a picture of their mycelium drying unit that holds one cycle (5,000 lbs) of product.

The matured mycelium (about 6 weeks old) is spread onto trays and put into a HEPA filtered wind tunnel oven at 200°F. for about 12 hours.  It is then removed and ground into a fine powder in the grinding room (also pictured below).
John ships the powder in sealed sterile 55 gallon drums to a facility that encapsulates and bottles it.





This does give a bunch of hints, 6 weeks for mycelial growth, and a filtered wind tunnel oven at 200F for 12 hours.

And this one:
Quote:

When I was at Aloha during the month of March, I learned that companies growing for medicinals do NOT fruit.  They grow-out bags of mycelium, dry, then grind it.  The resulting power is packed into capsules and bottled for sale.  According to John Holliday, there is no difference in quality or potency whether the product is mycelium or the actual fruitbody . . . it's all the same.




So it seems at least two commercial producers (Host Defense and Aloha Medicinals) do NOT do any extraction process at all, they are just drying in one case freeze drying, in the other, hot moving air (which sounds a lot like a regular heated dehydrator) and grinding up the mycelium along with the substrate. 

This seems like something I should be doing.  I was just wondering if others here are already doing this and if so, do you have any additional tips?


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OfflineDamienRoads
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26358935 - 12/03/19 11:31 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I am interested in this process as well. I currently have a couple dozen jars of rye grains inoculated with lions mane. I have done double extraction tinctures with the lions mane fruits in the past but after listening to Stamets on the Rogan podcast I was thinking of doing both a tincture from the fruiting body as well as drying and grinding some rye grains to add to smoothies etc. I have been researching it and it is questionable whether the 'Erinacine A' exists in the grains at all. All the lab tests have been done with the fermented mycelium (liquid culture). 

Has anyone ever tried to do something directly with the liquid culture?


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Offlinetrubblesome
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: DamienRoads]
    #26358974 - 12/03/19 12:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

my sense is that those companies are drying up and selling a lot of cellulose. there's no way that the myc has eaten it all.

I watched this last night and can't find the time stamp where he discusses it now but you would probably be interested in this vid from peter mccoy where he talks about exactly that - getting the beneficial compounds from liquid cultures and not from mycelium cakes on grain, because you're really getting a lot of partially digested grain + mycelium that way:




anyway yes there are lots of commercial liquid culture extractions - he talks about some of them here, including the one that kind of paved the way, the production of citric acid from Aspergillus niger in liquid culture. he talks about mycology forums in here too, i wonder if he posts here.


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OfflineHabadashery
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: trubblesome]
    #26359722 - 12/03/19 06:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Entertain the idea of growing it on other food and eating it.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17486088/fpart/4/vc/1#17486088

If you want to do lots of work and use solvents and processes, I'm sure you could busy yourself endlessly with a little more gain.  Believe me, I understand, I love to busy myself with measuring and calculating and planning, but none of it ever added up to anything better than just eating good food.  Why do we love to complicate things?  What is fascinating about taking a pill?  Like most supplements on the market, if you just ate well, you wouldn't need any of them. 

My 2 cents.


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Registered: 01/26/19
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: Habadashery]
    #26361168 - 12/04/19 02:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Habadashery said:
Entertain the idea of growing it on other food and eating it.





Well you dry and powder it mostly for preservation purposes.  I'm not opposed to eating some myceliated grain though, I will definitely try it, but I doubt it will be very tasty.

Not sure I like the idea of using liquid cultures when the goal is to directly consume the mycelium, they contaminate too easily and its difficult to see the contamination sometimes.


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GordoTEK


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OfflineHabadashery
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26361794 - 12/04/19 08:20 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Read that thread I posted, a few people thought it was very tasty, myself included.  The morel one was the best, blue oyster was pretty damn good.  Now, talking about purely medicinal, well I never tried reishi, and admittedly that's because I thought it sounded..... not good, but I don't know that.  I bet lions mane is excellent, I might get on making some of that this weekend.


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Invisibleilus
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: Habadashery]
    #26362235 - 12/05/19 05:07 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Listen to this podcast (30:00 on) and check out the studies below it.  I believe Paul Stamets is full of shit now, which I know is almost blasphamey in the USA to say. I still think he's doing good stuff for bees. I still haven't seen any studies from him, if I do then I will retract my statement.

https://www.mushroom-revival.com/mycelium-vs-fruiting-bodies-and-medicinal-mushrooms-with-jeff-chilton/?fbclid=IwAR0JBz5nRsfRV59qhnCsXUV20dLfYt44sEU4oKqqfGhHSxSHkABC2_L3wIw


For those who don't want to go through it - basically mycellium is nothing but grain when tested and fruiting bodies are everything.  They really break down the entire industry in this podcast like I've never heard it before.


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Edited by ilus (12/05/19 03:30 PM)


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OfflineHabadashery
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: ilus]
    #26362477 - 12/05/19 08:22 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

What podcast?  You have a link to NASA up there lol.


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Invisibleilus
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: Habadashery]
    #26363223 - 12/05/19 03:30 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
Message me for Mushroom Tinctures
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Offlinetrubblesome
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: ilus]
    #26364353 - 12/06/19 06:24 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

illustrain said:
Listen to this podcast (30:00 on) and check out the studies below it.  I believe Paul Stamets is full of shit now, which I know is almost blasphamey in the USA to say. I still think he's doing good stuff for bees. I still haven't seen any studies from him, if I do then I will retract my statement.

https://www.mushroom-revival.com/mycelium-vs-fruiting-bodies-and-medicinal-mushrooms-with-jeff-chilton/?fbclid=IwAR0JBz5nRsfRV59qhnCsXUV20dLfYt44sEU4oKqqfGhHSxSHkABC2_L3wIw


For those who don't want to go through it - basically mycellium is nothing but grain when tested and fruiting bodies are everything.  They really break down the entire industry in this podcast like I've never heard it before.




wow, thanks for the link, really great conversation on that podcast. I'm only just getting in to the world of mycology but I get the sense that you aren't alone in seeing stamets as something of a charlatan now. I think peter mccoy in the vid I posted above just about says as much too.


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Invisibleilus
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: trubblesome]
    #26366277 - 12/07/19 05:25 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So, Jeff on that podcast and Paul Stamets used to be partners.  I heard back from Paul and he provided me his research.  Going to comb through this - it seems like both sides are sorta right.

http://mushroomreferences.com/

Relevant article:
https://fungi.com/blogs/articles/beta-glucans-and-the-seven-pillars-of-immunity?fbclid=IwAR3D_DXR2UHR0tysZ2o8otBHJaXsE1ursGL4CR2ob_iBXlXREOdqPIEKhqc


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Message me for Mushroom Tinctures
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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: ilus]
    #26366680 - 12/07/19 10:34 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It may be worth noting that Paul's and aloha's(john Holliday) supplements are the worst on the market.

And that's scientifically verified

Paul will not give any credible lab results on his own products.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26310816#26310816


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OfflineKing0fthajuice
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26374211 - 12/10/19 11:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It may be worth noting that Paul's and aloha's(john Holliday) supplements are the worst on the market.

And that's scientifically verified

Paul will not give any credible lab results on his own products.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26310816#26310816




I’m def fanboying you Bodhi but I’ve been linking your posts about Paul to people.

I said to my friend that I think Paul’s full of ish with the mycellium over fruit thing and that I would need for him to address it otherwise I am going to be super dissapointed. Low and behold he happens to mention on new JRE that a new study out of Paris I think he said, that mycellium better then fruit body’s. I want someone to link this study to me because I couldn’t find it.  Maybe I should just go straight to the horses mouth and email him or his team asking for a link.

Anybody actually find the study he talks about?

I just don’t get it I could have SWORN Paul said in early YouTube videos you have to eat fruit bodies! And how dissapointed I was to find out he uses mycellium like wtf


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Offlineenamored
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26375214 - 12/11/19 02:43 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It may be worth noting that Paul's and aloha's(john Holliday) supplements are the worst on the market.

And that's scientifically verified

Paul will not give any credible lab results on his own products.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26310816#26310816





lol love this, Paul is a salesman before anything else. I don't trust him as far as I could throw him


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: enamored]
    #26378642 - 12/13/19 07:51 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the additional input everyone.  I tend to agree with Bod regarding the "suspect" nature of Paul Stamets, I think he means well, but he does give off a charlatan vibe to me, I question the rigor of his science.  I welcome any links to reputable, peer reviewed, controlled studies that support any of these ideas.  That said, I think its entirely plausible that mycelium could contain higher values of some medicinal compounds.  You can't apply that as a generalization though, there are clearly certain compounds that form in much more concentrated ways in the fruit bodies, psilocybin is certainly one of those, this has been proven in rigorous studies (see "Results and Discussion" section starting at the bottom of page 3, also note that they used cubensis, not sure why the species is misidentified as cyanescens in the published paper, Fanaticus claimed to have never sold cyanescens which they say they bought from him, he only sold cubensis spores).

As for growing on brown rice for mycelium harvest vs. liquid culture.  I do question that choice of grain, but in general, I think the strategy is probably reasonable.  Liquid cultures are far more prone to contamination and when they contaminate it is sometimes difficult to see the contamination - this makes it potentially more hazardous to consume mycelium directly from liquid cultures.  I'm OK with consuming whole grains, they are good for you, so I would just accept that the end product is going to be about 60-70% grains and not mycelium. 

Yes, from a business perspective its easy to see how vendors would benefit from having the majority of their product being "filler" vs. someone starting with pure mycelium or even taking that further and doing an extract on pure mycelium - you are going to see completely different concentration levels of active ingredients.  Product labels should reflect lab test values of active compounds so consumers know what they are really getting and can compare one product to another.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26378655 - 12/13/19 07:59 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26559858

Most humans ability to break down chitin makes the commonly available supplements 1/30th to 1/50th as effective than properly extracted supplements. Pauls fits in the not bioavailable camp


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26381496 - 12/14/19 03:01 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26559858

Most humans ability to break down chitin makes the commonly available supplements 1/30th to 1/50th as effective than properly extracted supplements. Pauls fits in the not bioavailable camp




That's a very specific statement, I did some searching and think I found your source?  But I read the abstract from the paper you linked above (same one the source links to), and it doesn't seem to support your statement.  I can't seem to get the full paper right now (sci-hub not working?) but it looks like this was an in-vitro study using rodent cells - not particularly useful for answering the question of in-vivo bioavailability in humans.  Also note that while they did find the hot water extract was "more potent" the abstract doesn't say how much more potent, but based on the graph shown here it seems the extract is maybe 2-3x as potent with regard to TNF, maybe 3-10x more potent for TLR2.  So doing an extract is a good idea, but this is a far cry from saying the mycelium cannot be digested at all.

These guys found that both the extract AND the solid mycelium had robust immune stimulating effects (by some measures the extract was a little stronger, by other measures the mycelium was stronger): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31791317
But this again was not a human in-vivo study.

These guys at least used human blood and also compared in vs. ex vivo:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19281536
Sadly, they found that while the extract worked ex vivo, it did NOT work in vivo.  So these guys conclude that humans might not even be able to digest the extracts, haha.

I want to see more in-vivo human studies.  This 2019 systematic review may hold the answers:
https://academic.oup.com/cdn/article/3/Supplement_1/nzz052.P14-021-19/5518278
Need to get the actual paper.  What are the references mentioned (2 human studies) and what did those studies use?

Also note that these researchers found that 90% of humans can likely digest chitin (to varying degrees): http://www.bio.unipd.it/agroecology/download/pdf/papers/2009/Chitin-Chitinases-Paoletti-From-Binomium-Chitnchitinase-Recent-Issues-Fp-Version.pdf


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GordoTEK


Edited by GordoTEK (12/14/19 03:29 PM)


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26381795 - 12/14/19 05:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Also now that I think about it, if you believe all the medicinal compounds in mushrooms are "locked up" behind an indigestible wall of chitin, how in the world could anyone ever trip from fresh or dried psilocybin containing mushrooms (without doing an extraction first)?  This theory doesn't seem to hold up well under scrutiny.


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Offlinedirtydangus
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26382305 - 12/14/19 09:55 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

This seems super interesting!

Kind of a basic question, but how do they even test the benefits of lion's mane in a human? Get some sort of baseline for brain function then test again later after taking lion's mane supplements? It seems like this kind of stuff would be super hard to compare.


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Re: Mycelium only for harvest/medicinal value looking for info (best grain? how to dry and process?) [Re: dirtydangus]
    #26387036 - 12/17/19 12:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dirtydangus said:
This seems super interesting!

Kind of a basic question, but how do they even test the benefits of lion's mane in a human? Get some sort of baseline for brain function then test again later after taking lion's mane supplements? It seems like this kind of stuff would be super hard to compare.




They are conducting tests like that through the new microdosing app:
https://microdose.me/
But you are right, such tests are unreliable, for example the amount of sleep you got the night before will have a much bigger impact than whatever supplement you took when it comes to memory or cognitive functioning type tests.

Another approach is to measure BDNF levels which could signal something beneficial going on in the brain.


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GordoTEK


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