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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Academia [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26379711 - 12/13/19 04:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
When did we decide that schooling was the cause of lack of interest in intellectual pursuits?




Probably the universities are not the "cause".

But consider that: Kids / Guys study hard to get into good universities,
Then, once they get there many play football (now known to statistically to increase the odds of some long term brain damage). And the colleges & Universities condone this.

And again:  once they get there, many indulge in Binge drinking,  (now known to statistically increase the odds of some long term health damage).

So right out of the gate, something is wrong.

As regards hazing, at some 'schools' nothing needs to be said.

....I certainly think idealism about institutions of "higher learning" is misplaced. It is up to the individual, to make the right choices, to take advantage of what is good, and in so far as possible ignore all the bullshit.
...Given this you are certainly right, that what matters most, is what the student brings, to the experience of college.
....As others have pointed out for some students, & some departments, & some colleges, it is all just about getting a better job than those, who didn't get a degree.
....Hence many do a lot of research before choosing a college to apply to, that they think has some great teachers. And others have other motivations.


Edited by laughingdog (12/13/19 04:45 PM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Academia [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26381184 - 12/14/19 11:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose it’s key to separate education based on career and education based on non-career.  How do you keep alive education not based on career ?  Governmental funding ?  Private donations based on virtue and the love of study ?  I think they realized it’s actually more efficient and beneficial to society to lump all education into one pot or else the liberal arts would be worse off than they are now.  There are so many facepalming contradictions in society it’s hard to care.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Academia [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26381355 - 12/14/19 01:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Great point. Yes, the whole pursuit of a liberal education, one possibly tied to a major in English, or philosophy or the humanities, etc., is still lumped in with things like business, finance, engineering, etc., and it's really rather awkward. But as I mentioned earlier in the thread, a major in one of those subjects I listed is considered to be the relinquishment of a desire to make a lot of money.

So their status, in modern American culture, is relegated to a very poor place indeed. They still have support from a lot of people, but nonetheless, funding for such departments is slowly dwindling. So any sort of organized education pertaining to an actual education in classical academics may dissolve over the next several years. As we have been saying, such an education is already quite marginalized.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Academia [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26383230 - 12/15/19 11:57 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

we totally have to fix that.
and the environment.
and health care.
minimum wage.
starvation.
&
end the drug wars and slavery


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Academia [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26384414 - 12/16/19 02:19 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is that not a problem in all things?
even within great musical bands, the battles of attitudes are endless.




Yes but are your favorite bands trying to convince you of slightly manufactured global and economic crisis 24/7, or demanding a schedule you have to adhere to or else your future ability to earn income may be jeopardized?

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Our educational system is much more focused on memorizing information than teaching the skills to think and learn independently. I believe it's much more important for a teenager to learn critical thinking skills and how to identify logical fallacies than who the 23rd president was, or what natural resources Norway exports.




This guy gets it per usual.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Academia [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26384602 - 12/16/19 07:37 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

some help for learning to find one's path through digitally endorsed lies and fake news would be good.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Registered: 04/28/19
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Re: Academia *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26384709 - 12/16/19 08:57 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by YangSupporter

Reason for deletion: Q


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Academia [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26384933 - 12/16/19 11:17 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

it can't just be about aptitude or ability to pay, it must also be inclination and stictoitiveness.

in fact, inclination is a thing that can easily shift, and stictoitiveness has to be developed.

also the result of education is not just training (which can be obtained in apprenticeship), it is also about refinement, discovery, and well rounded maturation while being exposed to culture in the presence of one who has professed knowledge.

This does not translate as quid pro quo at all, there is no promise or deal in it - no guaranteed life or livelihood ahead. Education is more like a dimension that you can enter and leave, and it may contribute nothing or everything to what you do in the world.

culture is not just social media and advertising, and that is why we need education.
alternatively, the armed forces has something to offer, but the trade off could be one's life.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Academia [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26385049 - 12/16/19 12:30 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

this one is very different

quite a contrast to most

https://www.sjc.edu/about

"St. John’s distinctive liberal arts curriculum and educational practices have long given it a highly respected place among American colleges and universities. Its strong commitment to collaborative inquiry and to the study of original texts makes St. John’s College a particularly vibrant community of learning. Through close engagement with the works of some of the world’s greatest writers and thinkers—from Homer, Plato, and Euclid to Nietzsche, Einstein, and Woolf—undergraduate and graduate students at St. John’s College grapple with fundamental questions that confront us as human beings. As they participate in lively discussions and throw themselves into the activity of translating, writing, demonstrating, conducting experiments, and analyzing musical compositions, St. John’s students learn to speak articulately, read attentively, reason effectively, and think creatively."


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Academia [Re: laughingdog]
    #26385329 - 12/16/19 03:07 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

How about we collapse the state and organize ourselves democratically with respect to property rights that are based on capital ownership collective or not.  In emphasizing social co-operatives in the workplace and society, along with technological advancements, there would be a built in safety net without the inevitable inefficiency of government due to its potential for corruption that is exaggerated by everyone believing it must exist in the first place.  As we evolve in this system we come to realize that money itself is unnecessary and drop it altogether.  Education then becomes a voluntary association towards people who either want it or they don’t for whatever purposes that suit them.

This probably makes me a dreaming anarcho-socialist.


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Academia [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26386238 - 12/17/19 12:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
How about we collapse the state and organize ourselves democratically with respect to property rights that are based on capital ownership collective or not.  In emphasizing social co-operatives in the workplace and society, along with technological advancements, there would be a built in safety net without the inevitable inefficiency of government due to its potential for corruption that is exaggerated by everyone believing it must exist in the first place.  As we evolve in this system we come to realize that money itself is unnecessary and drop it altogether.  Education then becomes a voluntary association towards people who either want it or they don’t for whatever purposes that suit them.

This probably makes me a dreaming anarcho-socialist.




And privatize the police force too right? Then say if my police force was bigger than yours.... id kill you and take all your shit. Orrrrrr people without money or access to a group wouldnt have a police force so they could be stolen from or killed without legal action taken against me.

All because theres corruption! oooooo Because corruption of course is the worst possible thing that could EVER happen!!!!


"People could potentially eat too much food. Therefore we must ban all food."


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Academia [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26387703 - 12/17/19 07:31 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
How about we collapse the state and organize ourselves democratically with respect to property rights that are based on capital ownership collective or not.  In emphasizing social co-operatives in the workplace and society, along with technological advancements, there would be a built in safety net without the inevitable inefficiency of government due to its potential for corruption that is exaggerated by everyone believing it must exist in the first place.  As we evolve in this system we come to realize that money itself is unnecessary and drop it altogether.  Education then becomes a voluntary association towards people who either want it or they don’t for whatever purposes that suit them.

This probably makes me a dreaming anarcho-socialist.




And privatize the police force too right? Then say if my police force was bigger than yours.... id kill you and take all your shit. Orrrrrr people without money or access to a group wouldnt have a police force so they could be stolen from or killed without legal action taken against me.

All because theres corruption! oooooo Because corruption of course is the worst possible thing that could EVER happen!!!!


"People could potentially eat too much food. Therefore we must ban all food."




You’d kill me and take all my shit if there was nobody whispering in your ear that this is a poor move ?  Hopefully you are a minority otherwise we’re fucked.  Im going to assume you are, optimistically. 

That being said collapsing the government would likely be a bad move, I agree.  The central issue here seems to be currency itself.


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Offlinedodgem
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Re: Academia [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 2
    #26395390 - 12/22/19 10:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Our educational system is much more focused on memorizing information than teaching the skills to think and learn independently. I believe it's much more important for a teenager to learn critical thinking skills and how to identify logical fallacies than who the 23rd president was, or what natural resources Norway exports.




This guy gets it per usual.





Yup. I have a chemistry undergrad and an exercise science grad degree, and the most I got out of those 6 years was how to learn, ask questions, and converse with others about those ideas. 99% of every item I have taken on a test is long long gone from my memory, including even the most basic chemistry facts.

Do I have a better understanding of how our universe and our bodies function from moment to moment, for sure. Do I know the atomic number for nitrogen, not a chance.


Being able to teach ideas like emotional intelligence/awareness or how to think and learn independently as RJ Tubs said, would benefit our youth much more in my perspective. But, who can measure statistically emotional awareness or how much someone can work independently? Because then you won't be able to make money off of it.


--------------------
Walk where you like your steps


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Academia [Re: dodgem]
    #26395491 - 12/22/19 11:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yes dodgem, that's a very good point. There are probably a lot of methods for teaching more effectively, but since education -- especially higher education -- is a for-profit machine, anything that is not immediately practical and thus profitable will not make its way into the curriculum very readily. So we're stuck with this machine.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Academia [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26395687 - 12/22/19 02:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The west is in the throws of a down cycle. Academia is one of many institutions that are centered on sociopathic ruin. The initial premise of the institution has given way to profit/growth. This is known and broadly perceived. When a society is in a downturn cycle, it is what it is. The institutions go first and then they drag broader society with it. No Stone is left untruned. How'd we get here? Nature..
UP->DOWN->UP->DOWN

You can't avoid this. After this down, there will be an upturn in the future. The only discussion after this is the details of the matter. If you go back some years, you will see time and time again that these 'details' were brought up and people were warned about them and their trajectory. At this point, its too late. However, it's when the details become popular to discuss because it's so obvious what they are.

The broader scoping is that leadership fails no matter what model of governance you subscribe to. Some collapse gradually.. others catastrophically.

Birth->death->birth->death.. It's unavoidable.
Institutions of higher learning are in a death cycle.. Eventually there will be a reset and a completely new educational structure born.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Academia [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26398654 - 12/24/19 05:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

unavoidable, are not all of us and everything in a death cycle, as in life and death?
but the view is glass half empty/


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Academia [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26399360 - 12/24/19 03:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Because I became an avid if not a 'rabid' seeker of truth, I left pre-medical studies to complete a B.A. in philosophy much to the catastrophic disappointment of my parents who always imagined I'd become a physician. I then entered an M.T.S. program at  the United Methodist theological seminary at Drew University (after first going through Catholic catechism and baptism - not a small thing for a Jew). When I finally decided on psychology in the late 70s, the Clinical Psych programs HATED my academic background in philosophy and theology. Plus, those departments were favoring females. I found myself only accepted by a multi-disciplinary program in Human Development Education. When I graduated and moved to Florida, despite interning under a licensed psychologist and the only Jungian analyst on MD at the time, and having taken an equal number of courses in the Clinical Psychology Dept., FL would not allow me to sit for the psychology licensure exam! I was devastated and I was ignorant. I might have gotten a lawyer to fight the decision, but I was also broke from grad school and in a recent marriage to a woman who turned out to be a malicious Borderline Personality. Being broke I became dependent on her, and never did fight the powers that be, but I greatly digress.

Providentially, after a crappy $13K/year job as a substance abuse counselor in 1984-85 cocaine-drenched Miami, and getting fired (I naively advised the director's secretary to stop sleeping with the boss and return to her husband and 3 kids), my ex-wife, a school teacher, told me about a pilot-program in Miami-Dade County Public Schools which lasted me for 27 years. I was WAY over-qualified for the position but I worked 212 days of the year and it resulted in a pension. The point is that my wide-open seeking resulted in numerous employment rejections as a licensed Mental Health Counselor (vs. a licensed Psychologist) and not in the more prestigious and lucrative profession of Clinical Psychologist  (peers from my program in Human Development WITHOUT matriculating in Clinical Psych became Psychologists in MD, PA, and other more civilized states).

I expanded my seeking beyond the contours in my seminary days (I was NOT taking courses in order to become an ordained minister), and my PhD major included courses in physical, social, and personality development. Serendipitously, had my major not been from a college of education, I would not have been paid the additional $7K/year in the school system for the PhD, which times 27 years added another $189,000 to my salary over the duration. The summer, winter, and spring breaks gave me more time than most Americans to pursue my own interests which are known on this forum to long-timers. After a year of failures I finally succeeded in growing my first mushrooms in 1989.

When I was in a Neuropsychological Assessment class, everyone gave their reason for being there. Uncertain about my eventual employment even in my 3rd year of study, I said I was there because I wanted a modern understanding of the brain versus the material I had gleaned from reading William James, who I was a fan of. The prof was visibly taken aback and said awkwardly, "I see we have a scholar amongst us." I was a bit embarrassed because it was not a really accurate answer, I did not think I was a scholar, and while true it was not my essential reason. I was just racking up clinical psych courses for eventual licensure. This is what graduate school is about: a focused training for a particular occupation. Undergraduate college can be about discovery but even there I knew plenty of people focused on employment who never took another degree and who did very little exploring.

I did more seeking than most but I paid a price for having not been focused like those high school peers who decided they would become a psychologist, for example, and began that path at age 18. The same for the would-be physicians, lawyers, businessmen, etc. A seeker can expect to starve just as a philosopher ("You're gonna starve man," said my first philosophy prof when I went to change my major), or an artist or actor. But artists and actors often hope to be famous and wealthy whereas this is not a goal for a seeker. Things did turn out OK for me but while true scholars have long been known to live 'poor as church mice,' seekers do not even have a cultural cubby-hole in these United States.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/24/19 09:54 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Academia [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26399366 - 12/24/19 04:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well I think a whole lot of worthy people fall through the cracks in this country, and our academic system is certainly no ready remedy for that. Anyway, lovely post. :thumbup:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Academia [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26399735 - 12/24/19 09:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

:cheers: and Merry Christmas!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Academia [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26399776 - 12/24/19 10:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
unavoidable, are not all of us and everything in a death cycle, as in life and death?
but the view is glass half empty/



Not a glass half empty viewpoint. The glass is always half empty/half full in a (Birth->death) cycle.

Death isn't negative... it's a catalyst for birth (half full)
Life leads to death.
Up cycles lead to down cycles.
LOOP


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