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BotanyChild
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Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. 1
#26385480 - 12/16/19 04:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I honestly hope to go one day. The below quotes are good standing points. Really this place is a real modern day Utopia.
Quote:
Denmark earns more of its income from taxing its population than any other developed country, new figures have revealed.
Why Danes Happily Pay High Rates of Taxes?
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People in the European country see taxes as an investment in their quality of life.
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Denmark has one of the highest tax rates in the world, which is often mentioned as one of the biggest objections against the Danish welfare model. The average annual income in Denmark is about 39,000 euros (nearly $43,000) and as such, the average Dane pays a total amount of 45 percent in income taxes. Danish income taxes are based on a progressive tax system, so if you make more than 61,500 euros (about $67,000) per year, an additional tax rate of 7 percent is added over this threshold.
Nevertheless, a Gallup survey from 2014 showed that almost nine out of 10 Danish people happily pay their taxes to some or a high degree.
Investing in quality of life
The reason behind the high level of support for the welfare state in Denmark is the awareness of the fact that the welfare model turns our collective wealth into well-being. We are not paying taxes. We are investing in our society. We are purchasing quality of life.
The key to understanding the high levels of happiness in Denmark is the welfare model's ability to reduce risks, uncertainties and anxieties among its citizens and prevent extreme unhappiness.
The Danish welfare model provides opportunities for its citizens to pursue their happiness from advanced starting positions disregarding economic, social, gendered or cultural backgrounds. Let me give you some examples.
Education is free and even at university level, there is no tuition fee. Meanwhile, every Danish student receives around $900 per month from the state. This means I won't have to worry about how to finance my kid's education. It will be their talents and dreams that shape the path of their careers, not the size of my wallet.
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The Danish laws for parental leave are among the most generous in the world with a total of 52 weeks, out of which the parents can receive up to 32 weeks of monetary support from the state. Furthermore, most employees have five weeks of vacation allowing families and friend to spend quality time with each other.
There is free quality health care for everyone and the welfare model works as a risk-reducing mechanism. Danes simply have less to worry about in daily life than most other people and that forms a sound basis for high levels of happiness.
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The Danish flexicurity model
The Danish labor market is based on flexibility for employers, security for workers and an active labor market policy. These three elements in combination constitute the golden triangle of flexicurity, working out to the mutual benefit of all the parties involved. The golden triangle suits the needs of employers, workers and the unemployed, by allowing companies to adapt to changes and stay in business, and by providing a safety net for workers and the unemployed. Employers can easily make changes in staff, and the unemployed can look for new jobs without the same level of financial anxiety.
Also, an active labor market policy is meant to keep both the employed and unemployed active and skilled. For workers, there are many opportunities for the ongoing development of useful skills and continued education. For the unemployed, the active labor market policy provides services assisting with the job search, keeping those out of the workforce actively engaged in applying for a new job.
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The golden triangle of flexicurity
According to several scholars, the welfare model's ability to alleviate risks and insecurities in people's lives is one of the keys to understanding why Denmark does well in the happiness surveys. This is mainly because Denmark does well in terms of preventing extreme unhappiness. In a research paper from 2010 it was shown that the poorest Danes generally are quite happier than the poorest Americans – since the poorest people in Denmark enjoy a wide range of public social benefits that the poorest Americans do not – while the difference between the wealthiest people in each country is very little. That is also why Denmark is one of the countries where people feel most resilient to changes and least anxious in their daily lives.
Thus, Denmark is very equal in terms of happiness. As Richard A. Easterlin, Professor of Economics at the University of Southern California, explains, "There is greater equality in happiness in Denmark and Scandinavia. Mainly because the poorest groups are doing better than in other countries."
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Happiness – a new measure of progress
Happiness is becoming a core concern for the people who pass the laws shaping the circumstances of our lives.
In recent years, happiness, well-being and quality of life have made a powerful imprint on policy-making. The United Nations passed a resolution inviting countries to start measuring the happiness of their populations. Similarly, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development now includes life satisfaction as a parameter for the development of the member countries, and OECD Secretary General Ángel Gurría declares that "Improving the quality of our lives should be the ultimate target of public policies."
These ambitions reflect the growing awareness among people, politicians and scientists that economic progress is no longer a satisfactory indicator for the progress of a society.
Despite economic growth, I see massive economic anxiety. I see countries such as the United States and South Korea having achieved tremendous growth in the past decades, but failing to convert wealth into well-being for the people.
Denmark is by no means a perfect utopia, and the country faces challenges and issues like any other country. But I do believe Denmark can be a source of inspiration in how countries can increase quality of life.
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qman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: BotanyChild]
#26385512 - 12/16/19 05:06 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do you really think this blueprint would work throughout the world? It works for Denmark for a variety of different reasons, but that doesn't apply to most other nations around the world.
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BotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: qman]
#26385604 - 12/16/19 05:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Do you really think this blueprint would work throughout the world? It works for Denmark for a variety of different reasons, but that doesn't apply to most other nations around the world.
I can only hope or move there myself. Just something I have been thinking about for some time now after I had a conversation with an actual citizen of Denmark on another online forum where the topic was taxes. Very random indeed but it opened my mind to other existences on Earth. I have been in Florida for 29 years to date, so I pretty much only know about where I live and have grown tired of this culture. I just don't want to be a Floridian and become old looking at the floor drunk off my ass thinking about the past and so on. Very depressing if you get my drift. Even my neighbors mess with my gardening, the one thing I love about living in Florida.
Btw, my Denmark internet friend and I had a short but very sincere conversation. Overall it gave me my reasoning behind my posting here
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JohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: qman]
#26385859 - 12/16/19 07:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Do you really think this blueprint would work throughout the world? It works for Denmark for a variety of different reasons, but that doesn't apply to most other nations around the world.
I don't see why it wouldn't work. What's the difference between the needs of people in one country vs another?
Culturally, sure huge differences in religions and a number of other things like that, but everyone wants a decent paying job if they decide to work, everyone wants to be able to afford go to the hospital if they need to, everyone wants to be able to go to post secondary debt free if they decide to pursue a higher education.
Everyone would like to receive a pension when they are old, everyone would like to get some welfare cheques when they are down and out, etc.
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Antigov



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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy] 1
#26385876 - 12/16/19 07:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Taxation = theft
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Antigov] 2
#26385899 - 12/16/19 08:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's ridiculous. Taxation isn't theft.
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qman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26385909 - 12/16/19 08:07 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JohnRainy said:
Quote:
qman said: Do you really think this blueprint would work throughout the world? It works for Denmark for a variety of different reasons, but that doesn't apply to most other nations around the world.
I don't see why it wouldn't work. What's the difference between the needs of people in one country vs another?
Culturally, sure huge differences in religions and a number of other things like that, but everyone wants a decent paying job if they decide to work, everyone wants to be able to afford go to the hospital if they need to, everyone wants to be able to go to post secondary debt free if they decide to pursue a higher education.
Everyone would like to receive a pension when they are old, everyone would like to get some welfare cheques when they are down and out, etc.
Yes, human needs are very similar, but resources vary from nation to nation. We can go around the world and see the massive discrepancies in standards of living, natural resources, economic and military strength. All of those factors play important roles in the form of government that works best for each population group.
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BotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: qman]
#26385959 - 12/16/19 08:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks guys for your input, as I see it, we can run a society like a RTS video game if not better because it's real and the Earth has unlimited resources as long as the Sun stays alive, btw, I will ask since I understand the mind state here, do you guys think the sun has a conscience?
Edited by BotanyChild (12/16/19 08:26 PM)
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Antigov



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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
#26385963 - 12/16/19 08:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's ridiculous. Taxation isn't theft.
Taking money from me and my family and redistribute to others is theft. And when you don’t pay they send a man with a gun after you.
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Antigov] 1
#26385966 - 12/16/19 08:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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You can legally avoid taxes.
You using government services without paying taxes is theft.
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BotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
#26385969 - 12/16/19 08:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, we only feel stolen from because it does not go to help us.
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Antigov



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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
#26385988 - 12/16/19 08:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are, I’m not trying to be argumentative but I had to pay federal last year and probably this year too. 1%ers don’t pay any. Buffet brags his secretary pays more taxes then he does. There is something wrong with that.
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Antigov]
#26386000 - 12/16/19 08:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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No he doesn't brag, and the secretary pays a higher percentage... not a higher amount.
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JohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Antigov]
#26386048 - 12/16/19 09:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Where do think talk of that sort will get you? What do you think your country would look like now if not for taxation and public spending? I'd like to see you 'taxation is theft' people get your wish sometime, as long as it's not in my country.
Im sure you use things that have been paid for publicly, as do we all. Thieves don't cut you in.
If it wasn't for taxes, you might have a hard time calling on the police and courts when someone really robs you.
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26386052 - 12/16/19 09:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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The internet wouldn't exist without taxes.
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil] 1
#26386259 - 12/17/19 12:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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The argument: "That couldnt exist in a country with a lot of people." is the argument always used against adding anything new.
You can ALWAYS use it. Pick any program we have today in america. Remove it. Now if someone suggests adding it... you can respond "We couldnt possibly afford it! Theres TOO many people!" And you could be just as self-righteous and feel just as economically responsible as you do now when suggesting things like healthcare couldnt be added.
It not being affordable is simply nonsense.
Healthcare is the most obvious next step in human rights that has ever existed. There are too many people in america who have a pain somewhere.... or a lump somewhere... that are ignoring it because they need to put food on the table. Too many broken legs put in homemade splints. Too many simple cuts turned into infections. Too many people in poverty due to medical bills that could have succeeded if they didnt have an illness they didnt earn.
And it is inevitable to be a human right. You can fight it all you want. But history will prove you to be wrong and a fool. You will never take free healthcare away once it becomes law. People will laugh at you. The obviousness of it becomes apparent to all once it becomes law.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26386324 - 12/17/19 01:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.
The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.
I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.
We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] 3
#26386340 - 12/17/19 02:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.
The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.
I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.
We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).
All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.
Police = A right Regulations = A right Firefighters = A right Public roads = A right Healthcare = A right
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JohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten] 2
#26386354 - 12/17/19 02:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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A Libertarian society would be free for the oligarchs who would run it.
It's a harebrained bunch of disempowering nonsense designed to eliminate public expression through a democratic government. That's why it was cooked up. The only institution that is capable of forcing the corporations and the system to behave in a manor agreeable to the public is a democratic government. That's why you are supposed to hate government.
Its sad some people actually buy into it. I can understand though, they push this shit.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26386375 - 12/17/19 02:56 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.
The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.
I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.
We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).
All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.
Police = A right Regulations = A right Firefighters = A right Public roads = A right Healthcare = A right
Never said I was a libertarian. Nor did I argue government isn't based off of other people's labor. I can agree to those things and still assert an objective definition for what rights are. It can have the definition AND still be morally fucked up. I'm not arguing morality here.
Once again, everything you just listed there isn't a right, for the reasons I mentioned above.
Say what you will, your post here doesn't preclude nor negate my original claims.
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] 1
#26386414 - 12/17/19 04:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.
The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.
I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.
We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).
All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.
Police = A right Regulations = A right Firefighters = A right Public roads = A right Healthcare = A right
Never said I was a libertarian. Nor did I argue government isn't based off of other people's labor. I can agree to those things and still assert an objective definition for what rights are. It can have the definition AND still be morally fucked up. I'm not arguing morality here.
Once again, everything you just listed there isn't a right, for the reasons I mentioned above.
Say what you will, your post here doesn't preclude nor negate my original claims.
What an IDIOT I am for misunderstanding your nonsensical argument!!! Woooo Ill go back to school and get on your level of semantics.
Your original claim: Things that take other peoples labor = not a right.
So if I kill you and the police come arrest me after that isnt a right then because those police required other peoples labor!!! Oh my god and what if you were homeless and didnt work??? You'd be sucking off the tit of others labor!
You are semantically arguing here simply to not face the reality. Arguing about what the word "right". You dont have a right to breath or exist. Rights dont exist outside of society. You could argue the same garbage about anything.
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26386575 - 12/17/19 07:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.
Police = A right Regulations = A right Firefighters = A right Public roads = A right Healthcare = A right
None of those are rights, though. They are government services, but not rights. To say that you have a right to healthcare is to say that another person has the obligation to do something regardless of whether or not they want to do it.
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26386581 - 12/17/19 07:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
So if I kill you and the police come arrest me after that isnt a right then because those police required other peoples labor!!! Oh my god and what if you were homeless and didnt work??? You'd be sucking off the tit of others labor!
You are semantically arguing here simply to not face the reality. Arguing about what the word "right". You dont have a right to breath or exist. Rights dont exist outside of society. You could argue the same garbage about anything.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the terms you're using. No one in the United States has the right to police protection. That has been settled law for decades. See DeShaney v. Winnebago. Government services are creatures of statute and policy. They are not human rights, constitutional rights, or even statutory rights.
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Antigov



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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
#26386584 - 12/17/19 07:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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my bad for misquoting an article that I read years ago, I guess that means I’m wrong and taxes arent theft and the government invests my money wisely
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Enlil
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Antigov] 1
#26386588 - 12/17/19 07:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're forgiven.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26386856 - 12/17/19 10:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
I think maybe you're talking about a natural right?
Human rights are defined by humans, and there's even a Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26387072 - 12/17/19 01:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whoa, deja vu
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: ballsalsa]
#26387104 - 12/17/19 01:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26387239 - 12/17/19 02:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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The semantics here bores me.
Healthcare is a human right and will become law and they will then laugh at how stupid people of the past have been.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26387333 - 12/17/19 03:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with you.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] 2
#26387655 - 12/17/19 06:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.
The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.
I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.
We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).
You started out good. "Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right". So capitalists have no right to make a profit.
But you went way off base when you said "the right to health care infringes on" health care providers, unless by health care providers you only meant insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry, because most doctors and nurses support universal healthcare.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
#26387984 - 12/18/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.
Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.
The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.
I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.
We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).
You started out good. "Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right". So capitalists have no right to make a profit.
But you went way off base when you said "the right to health care infringes on" health care providers, unless by health care providers you only meant insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry, because most doctors and nurses support universal healthcare.
That is what I meant by healthcare provider.
And you're correct: capitalists don't have a right to make profit. Profit isn't a right, just like healthcare isn't. Swap one for the other it doesn't matter to me.
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Enlil said:
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Oldnameforgotten said:
All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.
Police = A right Regulations = A right Firefighters = A right Public roads = A right Healthcare = A right
None of those are rights, though. They are government services, but not rights. To say that you have a right to healthcare is to say that another person has the obligation to do something regardless of whether or not they want to do it.
Thank you Enlil. This is what I was getting at but I may have mispoken; services vs rights..Quote:
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Enlil said:
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Oldnameforgotten said:
So if I kill you and the police come arrest me after that isnt a right then because those police required other peoples labor!!! Oh my god and what if you were homeless and didnt work??? You'd be sucking off the tit of others labor!
You are semantically arguing here simply to not face the reality. Arguing about what the word "right". You dont have a right to breath or exist. Rights dont exist outside of society. You could argue the same garbage about anything.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the terms you're using. No one in the United States has the right to police protection. That has been settled law for decades. See DeShaney v. Winnebago. Government services are creatures of statute and policy. They are not human rights, constitutional rights, or even statutory rights.
Thank you that's what I was trying to articulate, goddamn it.
The only one denying reality here is OP.
Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/18/19 01:51 AM)
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] 3
#26388004 - 12/18/19 01:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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You dont even make a point in your ramblings.
"Hey man like.... so like.... healthcare isnt a right because like.... thats other peoples labor. Also like... technically theres like... no rights at all. Also like theres like.... a difference between rights and services and like.... capitalism is like... where like... theres no government .... but like... we need government... but like government is bad... cuz like... corruption."
You dont make a point.
Healthcare is a right. Define the word "right" however youd like. Inevitable that it will be free is the point. The current society has the means to make healthcare a non-existent worry. And once it is free.... everyone will laugh at how stupid previous people were for not making it free.
Just like they did with firefighters.... highway patrol.... regulations.... and so on.
Your libertarian dystopia makes no sense. These silly little tangents you go off on about defining what a "right" is are completely irrelevant. Circular as fuck.
Free healthcare = easily affordable and obviously the correct choice in a 2019 society.
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JohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26388017 - 12/18/19 02:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Healthcare as a right" is just a phrase.
There are legally defined rights and healthcare isn't in there, so it's not a technical a legal right.
Offering free comprehensive health insurance to everyone from birth to death with no strings attached can colloquially be called health care as a right.
In that description I used the word free, and people might say it's not free because it's paid for with public revenue and you pay some of that.
Offering comprehensive health insurance that is 100% paid for publicly and free at the point of service is what people mean when they say free healthcare. 'Free at the point of service' has crept into the lexicon a bit, an attempt to be able to get through a sentence without someone interrupting to point out that it is still paid for even in places like Canada.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26388022 - 12/18/19 02:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JohnRainy said: There are legally defined rights and healthcare isn't in there, so it's not a technical a legal right.
Where are they defined? Have a look at article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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JohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26388040 - 12/18/19 03:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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The UN doesn't have jurisdiction, but fine, the UN declared it a human right. Good. But I don't think there is anywhere you can go with that if you don't have health insurance.
I don't think any country declared it a legal right did they?
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Article 25 of the United Nations' 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."
Well, it's worth the milliamps lighting the LEDs it's written on.
Edited by JohnRainy (12/18/19 03:22 AM)
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JohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26388054 - 12/18/19 03:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/372/soci/rep/repoct02vol6part2-e.htm#_ftnref1
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5.1 The Right to Health Care – Public Perception or Legal Right?
To begin, it is important to distinguish between a legal right to health care and the public perception of the existence of that right. In Volume Four, the Committee noted the existence of public opinion polls that reveal that Canadians, encouraged by politicians and the media, believe they have a constitutional right to receive health care even though no such right is explicitly contained in the Charter. Nor does any other Canadian law specifically confer that right, although government programs exist to provide publicly funded health services.
The preamble to the Canada Health Act (the Act) states that:
continued access to quality health care without financial or other barriers will be critical to maintaining and improving the health and well-being of Canadians.
As well, section 3 of the Act provides that the primary objective of Canadian health care policy is:
to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers.
These statements from the Canada Health Act, supportive as they are, do not grant a right to health care.
Similarly, international instruments such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, to which Canada is a signatory, speak of the right to a standard of living adequate for health and well-being, including medical care and the right to security in the event of sickness and disability; but they too do not provide a basis for a constitutional, or even legal, right to health care.
Clearly, there is a significant discrepancy between what the public believes and the absence of a legal right to health care.
Despite the absence of a legislated right to health care, there is a growing body of literature and court decisions on the effect of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the context of health care. Of particular interest are the implications of section 7 of the Charter for the provision of timely health care in Canada.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26388672 - 12/18/19 12:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JohnRainy said: The UN doesn't have jurisdiction, but fine, the UN declared it a human right. Good. But I don't think there is anywhere you can go with that if you don't have health insurance.
You're right. Unfortunately, the standards from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (and the International Criminal Court for that matter) are too high for the US to follow, so we simply don't.
But it's a good standard for humankind to strive for.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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BotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26394293 - 12/21/19 04:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wow, I did not expect my post to become so active. Honestly, for myself personally, I just get tired of the US system because I see so much abuse and corruption. I am not a political scientist or the highest educated person, but just feel something is seriously out of balance with the United States current situation. Sometimes I just want to leave the country to run away from it all. Denmark just seemed to be a better place.
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: BotanyChild] 2
#26394449 - 12/21/19 05:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
BotanyChild said: Wow, I did not expect my post to become so active. Honestly, for myself personally, I just get tired of the US system because I see so much abuse and corruption. I am not a political scientist or the highest educated person, but just feel something is seriously out of balance with the United States current situation. Sometimes I just want to leave the country to run away from it all. Denmark just seemed to be a better place.
Do it. Youll never look back I promise. Ever since I left to australia I kick myself for not leaving earlier.
Its actually hard too. All the countries dont want you and make it hard to immigrate. You need a degree in specific needed categories or need to be married to someone for more than a year.
So not only can I tell you.... you should WANT to leave..... but also you have to fight very hard to do so.
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BotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26394490 - 12/21/19 06:29 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:
BotanyChild said: Wow, I did not expect my post to become so active. Honestly, for myself personally, I just get tired of the US system because I see so much abuse and corruption. I am not a political scientist or the highest educated person, but just feel something is seriously out of balance with the United States current situation. Sometimes I just want to leave the country to run away from it all. Denmark just seemed to be a better place.
Do it. Youll never look back I promise. Ever since I left to australia I kick myself for not leaving earlier.
Its actually hard too. All the countries dont want you and make it hard to immigrate. You need a degree in specific needed categories or need to be married to someone for more than a year.
So not only can I tell you.... you should WANT to leave..... but also you have to fight very hard to do so.
Thanks for letting me know. I had no idea. From my research the only country that you can move to without much of a degree and only need to know English is China. They literately just want Americans to move to their country to teach English. I believe Japan used to be the same but harder now.
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eieio
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: BotanyChild]
#26430479 - 01/12/20 11:17 PM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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I think it's sort of ridiculous to compare countries with different geography, culture, massively different population numbers and demographics and etc etc etc etc etc.
Thinking people are cogs and replaceable is sort of the problem with mass immigration to begin with. Thinking we can just cut n paste legislation from one country to another is a flawed and simplistic idea, imo.
The juvenile idea that 'we should all look up to this super white country that doesn't let hardly anyone immigrate there and doesn't share a massive border with what amounts to a 3rd world country' (etc etc etc) is just a flawed thought-experiment that can never be carried out and is destined to leave people miserable and unhappy with where they're at.
Though, I like every other Democrat I know thought Sweden was the ideal... when I was 18-25. It's a common flaw, apparently.
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: eieio] 1
#26430783 - 01/13/20 07:34 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
eieio said: I think it's sort of ridiculous to compare countries with different geography, culture, massively different population numbers and demographics and etc etc etc etc etc.
Thinking people are cogs and replaceable is sort of the problem with mass immigration to begin with. Thinking we can just cut n paste legislation from one country to another is a flawed and simplistic idea, imo.
The juvenile idea that 'we should all look up to this super white country that doesn't let hardly anyone immigrate there and doesn't share a massive border with what amounts to a 3rd world country' (etc etc etc) is just a flawed thought-experiment that can never be carried out and is destined to leave people miserable and unhappy with where they're at.
Though, I like every other Democrat I know thought Sweden was the ideal... when I was 18-25. It's a common flaw, apparently.
You act like theres this grand country somewhere that lets anyone in. I got new for ya: immigrating amywhere is damn near impossible unless you have a highly sought after degree like nursing.
Other than being highly skilled in a high demand field.... all people must stay where they were born. That is a crazy thought that is normalized by society. Tribalism is not helping us. Pretending random civi's in Cuba are any different from randoms in vietnam is just dumb. Only difference is the infrastructure and colloquialisms.
The correct countries are the ones that include free healthcare. For the current climate in 2020 healthcare is a requirement. Its too easily accessed to be made private. Its a human right now. We should put that shit into law.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26430790 - 01/13/20 07:43 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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It's not that hard. All my Indian friends from grad school are still here 30 years later. They all have PhDs but not in high demand fields. They're in sociology, comparative literature, mass communication, etc.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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qman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26430800 - 01/13/20 07:51 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:
eieio said: I think it's sort of ridiculous to compare countries with different geography, culture, massively different population numbers and demographics and etc etc etc etc etc.
Thinking people are cogs and replaceable is sort of the problem with mass immigration to begin with. Thinking we can just cut n paste legislation from one country to another is a flawed and simplistic idea, imo.
The juvenile idea that 'we should all look up to this super white country that doesn't let hardly anyone immigrate there and doesn't share a massive border with what amounts to a 3rd world country' (etc etc etc) is just a flawed thought-experiment that can never be carried out and is destined to leave people miserable and unhappy with where they're at.
Though, I like every other Democrat I know thought Sweden was the ideal... when I was 18-25. It's a common flaw, apparently.
You act like theres this grand country somewhere that lets anyone in. I got new for ya: immigrating amywhere is damn near impossible unless you have a highly sought after degree like nursing.
Other than being highly skilled in a high demand field.... all people must stay where they were born. That is a crazy thought that is normalized by society. Tribalism is not helping us. Pretending random civi's in Cuba are any different from randoms in vietnam is just dumb. Only difference is the infrastructure and colloquialisms.
The correct countries are the ones that include free healthcare. For the current climate in 2020 healthcare is a requirement. Its too easily accessed to be made private. Its a human right now. We should put that shit into law.
Why don't you explain to every country in the world that their borders, national sovereignty and citizenship are meaningless and should be reversed?
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#26431037 - 01/13/20 10:49 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: It's not that hard. All my Indian friends from grad school are still here 30 years later. They all have PhDs but not in high demand fields. They're in sociology, comparative literature, mass communication, etc.
Their phds? Lol. 2 issues. 1 would be they have higher education and could classify as a lecturer which is instant citzenship in tons of countries.
2 it was 3 decades ago. Things have tightened up quite a bit.
Not to mention marriage could have helped or being in school long enough to apply for permanent.
Regardless its not impossible. A nursing degree is very obtainable. Or diesel mechanic is another one on a bunch of lists. I just wish all people could travel as long as they work and dont suck up welfare. Its good for humanity to be closer.
I mean if you guys knew the actual state of the world right now i reckon youd agree. Theres not many countries you can go to and work for a year. And of the countries its very very hard to get permanent. So 1 to 3 years max unless you marry or have a required skill or have a million dollars. Theres quite a few "million dollar visas" where if you can prove you have a million or more you get automatic permanent visa. How bullshit is that? Heh.
I get the economic reasoning to all of it. Gain skilled workers in fields you lack people in and gain rich people. Its just bad for us as a species. Tribalism disgusts me. No idea why it doesnt disgust the bulk of the population.
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qman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26431076 - 01/13/20 11:13 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: It's not that hard. All my Indian friends from grad school are still here 30 years later. They all have PhDs but not in high demand fields. They're in sociology, comparative literature, mass communication, etc.
Their phds? Lol. 2 issues. 1 would be they have higher education and could classify as a lecturer which is instant citzenship in tons of countries.
2 it was 3 decades ago. Things have tightened up quite a bit.
Not to mention marriage could have helped or being in school long enough to apply for permanent.
Regardless its not impossible. A nursing degree is very obtainable. Or diesel mechanic is another one on a bunch of lists. I just wish all people could travel as long as they work and dont suck up welfare. Its good for humanity to be closer.
I mean if you guys knew the actual state of the world right now i reckon youd agree. Theres not many countries you can go to and work for a year. And of the countries its very very hard to get permanent. So 1 to 3 years max unless you marry or have a required skill or have a million dollars. Theres quite a few "million dollar visas" where if you can prove you have a million or more you get automatic permanent visa. How bullshit is that? Heh.
I get the economic reasoning to all of it. Gain skilled workers in fields you lack people in and gain rich people. Its just bad for us as a species. Tribalism disgusts me. No idea why it doesnt disgust the bulk of the population.
You're really not making any sense here, all you're doing it making generalizations like "Its good for humanity". What exactly does this mean? Nations have limitations for immigration to protect their economy, social services and security.
US citizens with 120k in student debt don't need to compete for employment with non-US citizens, that's ridiculous.
The reason you don't understand why people want limitations on immigration is because you ignore the negative aspects of it.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: qman]
#26431106 - 01/13/20 11:27 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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As far as I can tell, the only useful service being performed by these foreign born (or American) PhDs is keeping millions of undergrads in school to lower the unemployment rate.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Oldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: qman]
#26431469 - 01/13/20 02:28 PM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: It's not that hard. All my Indian friends from grad school are still here 30 years later. They all have PhDs but not in high demand fields. They're in sociology, comparative literature, mass communication, etc.
Their phds? Lol. 2 issues. 1 would be they have higher education and could classify as a lecturer which is instant citzenship in tons of countries.
2 it was 3 decades ago. Things have tightened up quite a bit.
Not to mention marriage could have helped or being in school long enough to apply for permanent.
Regardless its not impossible. A nursing degree is very obtainable. Or diesel mechanic is another one on a bunch of lists. I just wish all people could travel as long as they work and dont suck up welfare. Its good for humanity to be closer.
I mean if you guys knew the actual state of the world right now i reckon youd agree. Theres not many countries you can go to and work for a year. And of the countries its very very hard to get permanent. So 1 to 3 years max unless you marry or have a required skill or have a million dollars. Theres quite a few "million dollar visas" where if you can prove you have a million or more you get automatic permanent visa. How bullshit is that? Heh.
I get the economic reasoning to all of it. Gain skilled workers in fields you lack people in and gain rich people. Its just bad for us as a species. Tribalism disgusts me. No idea why it doesnt disgust the bulk of the population.
You're really not making any sense here, all you're doing it making generalizations like "Its good for humanity". What exactly does this mean? Nations have limitations for immigration to protect their economy, social services and security.
US citizens with 120k in student debt don't need to compete for employment with non-US citizens, that's ridiculous.
The reason you don't understand why people want limitations on immigration is because you ignore the negative aspects of it.
I guess what I'm saying is Americans = Other people. Also I reckon high population is fine. More people more taxes.
When we have these borders that really stop the bulk of the population from experiencing other cultures.... it makes us close minded and less worldly. We should be bonding and learning from every culture just for the price of a plane ticket.
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Kryptos
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: qman] 1
#26433279 - 01/14/20 02:08 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: As far as I can tell, the only useful service being performed by these foreign born (or American) PhDs is keeping millions of undergrads in school to lower the unemployment rate.
Quote:
qman said: Why don't you explain to every country in the world that their borders, national sovereignty and citizenship are meaningless and should be reversed?
Honestly, they are. They're a meaningless distinction of random chance and fate. They serve absolutely no concrete, objective, demonstrable, purpose for the vast majority of the population. For some people, the type easily distracted by colorful cloth, they're symbols worthy of worship and sacrifice. For many people, they're simply a minor inconvenience. For a very, very, very small group of people, maybe a few dozen at any point in time throughout history: borders, national sovereignty, and citizenship are the most lucrative investment ever.
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BotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Kryptos]
#26444604 - 01/21/20 10:30 AM (4 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: As far as I can tell, the only useful service being performed by these foreign born (or American) PhDs is keeping millions of undergrads in school to lower the unemployment rate.
Quote:
qman said: Why don't you explain to every country in the world that their borders, national sovereignty and citizenship are meaningless and should be reversed?
Honestly, they are. They're a meaningless distinction of random chance and fate. They serve absolutely no concrete, objective, demonstrable, purpose for the vast majority of the population. For some people, the type easily distracted by colorful cloth, they're symbols worthy of worship and sacrifice. For many people, they're simply a minor inconvenience. For a very, very, very small group of people, maybe a few dozen at any point in time throughout history: borders, national sovereignty, and citizenship are the most lucrative investment ever.
I honestly believe in what Kryptos said about the fantasy behind borders. But, The truth be told, War is the reason behind borders. No more, No less.
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