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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26386414 - 12/17/19 04:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.

Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.

The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.

I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.

We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).





All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.

Police = A right
Regulations = A right
Firefighters = A right
Public roads = A right
Healthcare = A right




Never said I was a libertarian. Nor did I argue government isn't based off of other people's labor. I can agree to those things and still assert an objective definition for what rights are. It can have the definition AND still be morally fucked up. I'm not arguing morality here.

Once again, everything you just listed there isn't a right, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Say what you will, your post here doesn't preclude nor negate my original claims.





What an IDIOT I am for misunderstanding your nonsensical argument!!! Woooo Ill go back to school and get on your level of semantics.


Your original claim: Things that take other peoples labor = not a right.


So if I kill you and the police come arrest me after that isnt a right then because those police required other peoples labor!!! Oh my god and what if you were homeless and didnt work??? You'd be sucking off the tit of others labor!

You are semantically arguing here simply to not face the reality. Arguing about what the word "right". You dont have a right to breath or exist. Rights dont exist outside of society. You could argue the same garbage about anything.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26386575 - 12/17/19 07:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.

Police = A right
Regulations = A right
Firefighters = A right
Public roads = A right
Healthcare = A right



None of those are rights, though.  They are government services, but not rights.  To say that you have a right to healthcare is to say that another person has the obligation to do something regardless of whether or not they want to do it.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26386581 - 12/17/19 07:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

So if I kill you and the police come arrest me after that isnt a right then because those police required other peoples labor!!! Oh my god and what if you were homeless and didnt work??? You'd be sucking off the tit of others labor!

You are semantically arguing here simply to not face the reality. Arguing about what the word "right". You dont have a right to breath or exist. Rights dont exist outside of society. You could argue the same garbage about anything.



You are fundamentally misunderstanding the terms you're using.  No one in the United States has the right to police protection.  That has been settled law for decades.  See DeShaney v. Winnebago.  Government services are creatures of statute and policy.  They are not human rights, constitutional rights, or even statutory rights.


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InvisibleAntigov
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
    #26386584 - 12/17/19 07:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

my bad for misquoting an article that I read years ago, I guess that means I’m wrong and taxes arent theft and the government invests my money wisely

:bestcry:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Antigov] * 1
    #26386588 - 12/17/19 07:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You're forgiven.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26386856 - 12/17/19 10:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.



I think maybe you're talking about a natural right?

Human rights are defined by humans, and there's even a Universal Declaration of Human Rights.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26387072 - 12/17/19 01:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Whoa, deja vu


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26387104 - 12/17/19 01:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

:noargument:


--------------------
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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26387239 - 12/17/19 02:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The semantics here bores me.

Healthcare is a human right and will become law and they will then laugh at how stupid people of the past have been.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26387333 - 12/17/19 03:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 2
    #26387655 - 12/17/19 06:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.

Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.

The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.

I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.

We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).




You started out good. "Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right". So capitalists have no right to make a profit.

But you went way off base when you said "the right to health care infringes on" health care providers, unless by health care providers you only meant insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry, because most doctors and nurses support universal healthcare.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Enlil]
    #26387984 - 12/18/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right, though.

Positive rights contradict the very notion of rights.

The so-called "right to health care" infringes on negative rights by imposing forceful obligations on taxpayers and health care providers.

I know people are at the "Well who fucking cares people are dying" stage, but that doesn't negate this principle.

We all want healthcare bullshit fixed but "it's a right" isn't how it works, no matter the amount of emotional resistance to this fact; it is what it is (and is no less a cluster fuck for it).




You started out good. "Anything requiring someone else's labor isn't a human right". So capitalists have no right to make a profit.

But you went way off base when you said "the right to health care infringes on" health care providers, unless by health care providers you only meant insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry, because most doctors and nurses support universal healthcare.




That is what I meant by healthcare provider.

And you're correct: capitalists don't have a right to make profit. Profit isn't a right, just like healthcare isn't. Swap one for the other it doesn't matter to me.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

All of government is based off someone else's labor. That is such a silly argument. Libertarians have an illogical argument to the core.

Police = A right
Regulations = A right
Firefighters = A right
Public roads = A right
Healthcare = A right



None of those are rights, though.  They are government services, but not rights.  To say that you have a right to healthcare is to say that another person has the obligation to do something regardless of whether or not they want to do it.




Thank you Enlil. This is what I was getting at but I may have mispoken; services vs rights..
Quote:




Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

So if I kill you and the police come arrest me after that isnt a right then because those police required other peoples labor!!! Oh my god and what if you were homeless and didnt work??? You'd be sucking off the tit of others labor!

You are semantically arguing here simply to not face the reality. Arguing about what the word "right". You dont have a right to breath or exist. Rights dont exist outside of society. You could argue the same garbage about anything.



You are fundamentally misunderstanding the terms you're using.  No one in the United States has the right to police protection.  That has been settled law for decades.  See DeShaney v. Winnebago.  Government services are creatures of statute and policy.  They are not human rights, constitutional rights, or even statutory rights.







Thank you that's what I was trying to articulate, goddamn it.

The only one denying reality here is OP.


Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/18/19 01:51 AM)


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 3
    #26388004 - 12/18/19 01:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You dont even make a point in your ramblings.

"Hey man like.... so like.... healthcare isnt a right because like.... thats other peoples labor. Also like... technically theres like... no rights at all. Also like theres like.... a difference between rights and services and like.... capitalism is like... where like... theres no government .... but like... we need government... but like government is bad... cuz like... corruption."

You dont make a point.

Healthcare is a right. Define the word "right" however youd like. Inevitable that it will be free is the point. The current society has the means to make healthcare a non-existent worry. And once it is free.... everyone will laugh at how stupid previous people were for not making it free.

Just like they did with firefighters.... highway patrol.... regulations.... and so on.

Your libertarian dystopia makes no sense. These silly little tangents you go off on about defining what a "right" is are completely irrelevant. Circular as fuck.



Free healthcare = easily affordable and obviously the correct choice in a 2019 society.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26388017 - 12/18/19 02:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"Healthcare as a right" is just a phrase.

There are legally defined rights and healthcare isn't in there, so it's not a technical a legal right. 

Offering free comprehensive health insurance to everyone from birth to death with no strings attached
can colloquially be called health care as a right.

In that description I used the word free, and people might say it's not free because it's paid for with public revenue and you pay some of that. 

Offering comprehensive health insurance that is 100% paid for publicly and free at the point of service is what people mean when they say free healthcare.  'Free at the point of service' has crept into the lexicon a bit, an attempt to be able to get through a sentence without someone interrupting to point out that it is still paid for even in places like Canada.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26388022 - 12/18/19 02:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
There are legally defined rights and healthcare isn't in there, so it's not a technical a legal right.



Where are they defined?  Have a look at article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26388040 - 12/18/19 03:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The UN doesn't have jurisdiction, but fine, the UN declared it a human right.  Good.  But I don't think there is anywhere you can go with that if you don't have health insurance.

I don't think any country declared it a legal right did they?

Quote:

Article 25 of the United Nations' 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."




Well, it's worth the milliamps lighting the LEDs it's written on.


Edited by JohnRainy (12/18/19 03:22 AM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26388054 - 12/18/19 03:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/372/soci/rep/repoct02vol6part2-e.htm#_ftnref1

Quote:

5.1    The Right to Health Care – Public Perception or Legal Right?

To begin, it is important to distinguish between a legal right to health care and the public perception of the existence of that right.  In Volume Four, the Committee noted the existence of public opinion polls that reveal that Canadians, encouraged by politicians and the media, believe they have a constitutional right to receive health care even though no such right is explicitly contained in the Charter.  Nor does any other Canadian law specifically confer that right, although government programs exist to provide publicly funded health services.

The preamble to the Canada Health Act (the Act) states that:

continued access to quality health care without financial or other barriers will be critical to maintaining and improving the health and well-being of Canadians.

As well, section 3 of the Act provides that the primary objective of Canadian health care policy is:

to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers.

These statements from the Canada Health Act, supportive as they are, do not grant a right to health care.

Similarly, international instruments such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, to which Canada is a signatory, speak of the right to a standard of living adequate for health and well-being, including medical care and the right to security in the event of sickness and disability; but they too do not provide a basis for a constitutional, or even legal, right to health care.

Clearly, there is a significant discrepancy between what the public believes and the absence of a legal right to health care.

Despite the absence of a legislated right to health care, there is a growing body of literature and court decisions on the effect of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the context of health care.  Of particular interest are the implications of section 7 of the Charter for the provision of timely health care in Canada.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26388672 - 12/18/19 12:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
The UN doesn't have jurisdiction, but fine, the UN declared it a human right.  Good.  But I don't think there is anywhere you can go with that if you don't have health insurance.



You're right.  Unfortunately, the standards from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (and the International Criminal Court for that matter) are too high for the US to follow, so we simply don't.

But it's a good standard for humankind to strive for.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBotanyChild
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26394293 - 12/21/19 04:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, I did not expect my post to become so active. Honestly, for myself personally, I just get tired of the US system because I see so much abuse and corruption. I am not a political scientist or the highest educated person, but just feel something is seriously out of balance with the United States current situation. Sometimes I just want to leave the country to run away from it all. Denmark just seemed to be a better place.


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Denmark is a role model for the world to follow. [Re: BotanyChild] * 2
    #26394449 - 12/21/19 05:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BotanyChild said:
Wow, I did not expect my post to become so active. Honestly, for myself personally, I just get tired of the US system because I see so much abuse and corruption. I am not a political scientist or the highest educated person, but just feel something is seriously out of balance with the United States current situation. Sometimes I just want to leave the country to run away from it all. Denmark just seemed to be a better place.




Do it. Youll never look back I promise. Ever since I left to australia I kick myself for not leaving earlier.

Its actually hard too. All the countries dont want you and make it hard to immigrate. You need a degree in specific needed categories or need to be married to someone for more than a year.


So not only can I tell you.... you should WANT to leave..... but also you have to fight very hard to do so.


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