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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) *DELETED* [Re: pixelpopper] * 1
    #26386967 - 12/17/19 12:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by YangSupporter

Reason for deletion: 1


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: YangSupporter] * 3
    #26386972 - 12/17/19 12:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What the hell is going on here?


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: pixelpopper]
    #26386985 - 12/17/19 12:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pixelpopper said:


B12 is one of the key points touched on in this doc, and in the JRE debate. According to the info in the doc, the only reason meat has any b12 in it during modern times is because the animals are given b12 supplements in their feed. According to this info, animals used to get b12 because it was present in the soil & water, which has now changed due to things like pesticides and the way everything has been treated. The debunker says this claim is bullshit, but the doc guy totally backs it up in the debate and the debunker has to admit he was wrong. So basically a human can just take b12 supplements instead of eating meat.






Did they talk about grass fed beef or pasture raised chicken and B12? I'd be interested if that's because the animals' grain diet or because of the way we've ruined the land/soils.


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Offlinepixelpopper
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26386989 - 12/17/19 12:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Go to hell




Wow, and a 0/5 user rating... I'm quite surprised and disappointed today to see a user I respected acting in such a way.

Some days I love the shroomery, some days it reminds me why I isolate

:yeahgoodadvice:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: pixelpopper] * 1
    #26387499 - 12/17/19 05:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I can't speak to what professional athletes are doing. I'm not, nor will I ever, be a professional athlete. I'd like to live a long time. I'm just saying, you can avoid the age-accelerating effects of a high protein diet and still be very strong and athletic. I meet vegetarian men and women at the rock climbing gym who are some of the most ripped and athletic people I've ever met.

The only person to have ever free climbed (no ropes) the 3,200ft El Capitan is a vegetarian. There's a documentary about him doing it called Free Solo, it's excellent.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: pixelpopper]
    #26388028 - 12/18/19 02:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
You guys are embarrassing yourselves.

I want to add also that I did not get emotional about anything in this thread-- Northern, you don't strike me as someone to take things personally, yet you claim that I'm coming down on you.

Do what you will with the facts-- ignore them or embrace them.



I didn't take it personally. I never claimed that at all, read my post again.

I added a lot of links with corresponding science to this thread. I've been doing my best to try and stop the thread derailing, but it's like a vaccination topic. People fucking hate science when it gets  in the way of what they want to believe. Then they love to dispute science.

Quote:

pixelpopper said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
I looked for, but could not find, a reference for the film that tried to support it as a valid documentary.




I understand not wanting to listen to the stressful sounding debate, but the reason its more appropriate is because its two sided - the doc guy is given the chance to address the claims made against him, which he does. In your review links, its one sided and biased with no response. Hell, look at your quoted final statement there. It sounds like the stereotypical kind of douchebag you see on youtube who's made a career out of being an asshole... there is nothing in that statement worthy of consideration to me, its a total turn off to anything worth saying as a valid critique... but this is what you chose to quote as a highlighted response? Seems to say quite a lot to me about your mindset in approaching this subject...

Chris Kresser is the guy being debated in the JRE episode.. if you seriously want to include his info as your reference, then I have a very hard time understanding why you don't want to hear the response to his debunking, unless its just because you actually don't care about what's true, you just care about being right

menshealth? Sorry don't trust em.
perfectketo? Ahh, surely no bias / agenda there..

The other couple sites I don't know about. May have a glance at them but I'm not feeling to encouraged based on the entirety of your post



I looked hard at the subject. I thought the movie was mostly bullshit when I watched it, but the full scope of how much bullshit it actually was wasn't apparent until I tried fact checking it.

Try and find a review that says it's a great movie and shows why. Take the challenge. I couldn't find it. I found sites that say "it's great, vegan yay!" but nothing more substantial than that.

I'm not going to watch stupid squabbling arguments on YouTube for hours, I have better things to do with my life. If you can find a written summary of the response please post it.

And the articles I referenced were the ones that had the most scientific references, not the best written articles. I don't care much for showmanship. They were just examples. If you think these articles are unfairly biased find some that oppose them. I could not.

If you don't like the summary that thinks that the movie is a sin to common sense, then read some of them so you can refute it in conversation. Reading things we disagree with teach as well. Don't force yourself to be naive because your feelings don't want your beliefs/opinions to be wrong.

If you read it, understand it, and think, "yeah, that's a load of bullshit" you confirm your opinion, if you read it and double think you have learned something. Either way you win.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #26388053 - 12/18/19 03:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I talked with my wife about this as well, who is vegan, and we discussed what the problems are with it. There is a hell of a lot of solid nutritional science showing why we should eat well and exercise regularly. But I genuinely don't believe, nor have I found any reason to believe, that this film offers little more than agitation, fear and societal division. It does not present itself as an educational resource nor a verifiable source of reasons to make positive health and life choice changes and decisions. It's just plain bad vegan propaganda.

Someone should do the actual movie, "The real reasons you should eat well and exercise, you lazy fat fucker".

There is so much that is indisputable in terms of nutritional science. If presented with actual evidence in context to change people might actually listen, or at least know what they are doing wrong anyway.

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I can't speak to what professional athletes are doing. I'm not, nor will I ever, be a professional athlete. I'd like to live a long time. I'm just saying, you can avoid the age-accelerating effects of a high protein diet and still be very strong and athletic. I meet vegetarian men and women at the rock climbing gym who are some of the most ripped and athletic people I've ever met.




Absolutely, there's a hell of a lot to be said for eating well and exercising. It's good mojo.

This is an interesting article from Psychology Today that is worth a read on the topic, and closely aligned with my thinking.

84% of Vegetarians and Vegans Return to Meat. Why?

And the summary point...

"The implications of this study are important. Only 2% of Americans do not eat any animal products. (This number has not changed appreciably for 20 years.) Further, the fact that five out of six vegetarians go back to eating meat suggests that an all-veggie diet is very hard for most people to maintain over the long haul. Hence, the authors of the report argue that animal protectionists would be better off concentrating their efforts to persuade “the many” to reduce their consumption of flesh rather than trying to convince “the few” to take the absolutist route and give up meat completely. Sounds right to me."


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


Edited by Northerner (12/18/19 04:12 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #26388061 - 12/18/19 03:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

My whole thing with veganism is instead of trying to convince each other of its validity, try it and see how it makes your body feel. Not every diet is right for every person. Both the science that supports the meat and vegan sides, even if correct, won't always address the proper, nor optimal, nutritional needs of any given individual.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: Northerner]
    #26388350 - 12/18/19 09:03 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
We were just shooting the shit, then you come in here all holier than thou pointing the cunt stick at everyone/no-one in in particular calling them ignorant and lowly. Wtf?




This is where you became emotional, unless you don't define it the same way as I do.

Quote:

I added a lot of links with corresponding science to this thread.




You added web links to the very same items and people the linked show knocks into the dirt-- you're not making new arguments against the documentary here, settling your point-- you're posting the same people talking about it that are rebutted in the video above.

Why do you think the fact that there are a wave of arguments against the doc somehow finalizes your case-- watch the video. Watch the video.

That's what the Rogan episode is-- where someone involved in the doc gets a chance to rebut the counter-arguments that were made in the series of links you posted. Rogan invited Wilks because he was convinced by Kresser's arguments-- as you seem to be. At the end of the talk, Rogan had changed his view completely.

Rebut that-- but don't just re-assert that which has been confronted while refusing to see that confrontation and expect anyone paying attention to see your view as solid-- because at best your information is incomplete.

You have taken great pains to write all of this conversation int his thread, and have searched for links and talked to your wife which is all great-- because this topic touches a nerve for all of us in our own ways.

Yet you're posting the same info that is rebutted and has been addressed.
Yet you can't be bothered to listen to the discussion that was posted to see that. Why?

Quote:

Northerner said: People fucking hate science when it gets  in the way of what they want to believe. Then they love to dispute science.




Maybe this?

Look, I've eaten meat for over 40 years, and there's nobody anywhere saying that you can't live long and healthy to 100 years old with meat as a part of your diet. Nobody.

What these (and so many other) people are saying is that compared to vegetarians, meat eaters are less healthy, and die sooner.
That's a factual statement-- and it's been fact as long as people have been studying the question.


--------------------
I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination--  John Keats

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OfflineMycoBrainz
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: coAsTal]
    #26388543 - 12/18/19 11:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Funny how the guys who are everything in rediculas amounts now claim Vegetarian or vegan diets are the best. Well maybe when I'm all shot out with clogged arteries and high cholesterol, then it makes sense. Sorry, but I like my manhood. Let's do a big comparison of vegetarians,  vegans and meat eaters in a battle to the death. Let's see who's the best.


--------------------
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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: MycoBrainz] * 1
    #26388552 - 12/18/19 11:15 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MycoBrainz said:
Funny how the guys who are everything in rediculas amounts now claim Vegetarian or vegan diets are the best. Well maybe when I'm all shot out with clogged arteries and high cholesterol, then it makes sense. Sorry, but I like my manhood. Let's do a big comparison of vegetarians,  vegans and meat eaters in a battle to the death. Let's see who's the best.




Jesus Christ.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: Northerner]
    #26388554 - 12/18/19 11:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Oh I didn't watch this documentary. I was just reporting my understanding of the most up to date research. People will certainly want to take different approaches depending on your goals. If your priority goal is maximizing longevity and healthspan, then a diet low in amino acids, particularly methionine, is the way to go. If your priority goal is putting on muscle mass, that is obviously not a good approach. I've personally found that I can be far more athletic and strong than the average person without eating meat every day or supplementing protein shakes. I'm not personally interested in pushing the limits of my body's capacity to use growth hormones.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26389009 - 12/18/19 03:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
All the detractors in here....

It's of no concern to me if you ignore the details in there and make your anthill stand based on cherry-picking what you will and won't believe-- it's purely your loss. You're safe and sound if you feel secure in your ignorance.



Quote:

Northerner said:
We were just shooting the shit, then you come in here all holier than thou pointing the cunt stick at everyone/no-one in in particular calling them ignorant and lowly. Wtf?



Quote:

coAsTal said:
I want to add also that I did not get emotional about anything in this thread-- Northern, you don't strike me as someone to take things personally, yet you claim that I'm coming down on you.



Quote:

Northerner said:
I didn't take it personally. I never claimed that at all, read my post again.



Quote:

coAsTal said:
This is where you became emotional, unless you don't define it the same way as I do.



You are less than journeyman at verbal manipulation compared to some of the masters I have lived with. You will need more practice to reach adept level yet.

Onwards...

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Synchronicity--
I just this afternoon watched the Joe Rogan counter-rebuttal where the narrator of that documentary James Wilks dismantles that debunker Chris Kresser.

I hadn't even seen the documentary-- so after the 3.5 hour Rogan episode I watched it, too.

I've always been more and more naturally oriented towards vegetarianism, but finding this, watching this-- it felt like a genuine catalyst to me.

It's very powerful information, and I count myself as convinced.

Very good stuff-- that Kresser fellow looks so embarrassed... and he should be.



Against my better judgement I watched the podcast. Within minutes I was regretting watching it. But because I had taken the Pepsi Challenge I persevered for as long as I could, skipping through some parts where the topic wasn't changing but personal attacks and claim to authority were the main topic. It was a perspective rebuttal, which is great. James Wilks was a far better and more aggressive debator than Chris Kresser, without a doubt James behaved like a bully and talked right over everyone. The few times Wilks let Kresser speak uninterrupted was to get him to read his points rather than reading them himself, neat trick.

"I'm sorry if i was a bit combative..but, I'm a combative expert..."

It was painful to watch. Having not watched the initial "debunking" which would have been equally as painful, I face palmed so many times. My initial thought that watching an acupuncturist shoot the shit with a fight trainer would be a waste of life were correct. Wilks went in there pumped and swinging ready to win a fight, and he did. But that does not change my mind on the topic. The topic is the movie itself... not Kresser getting being intimidated and getting the fuck kicked out of him.

I added Kressers references as an afterthought after doing my own research to find the best information possible (as people were talking about it and more information is better than less right?), though I didn't read it where I had read all of the other links I posted. I wish I had now. The guy obviously didn't do his research properly on a couple of points and had that rammed down his throat. Going in there spinning a stocking full of shit around his head was not the way to approach it.

After reading all of the information on hand which I linked, watching this shitshow of podcast and forming my own opinion, I still find the movie a bunch of half truths with very few enlightening points. The only thing I got from all of this is B12 is hard to get. That's a lot of hours of listening and reading to get this tiny scrap of information. I seriously wanted more from this.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: Northerner]
    #26389138 - 12/18/19 04:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's a pity that's all you got out of it--


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: coAsTal]
    #26389159 - 12/18/19 05:02 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was asked questions, it would be rude to ignore them.

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
I added a lot of links with corresponding science to this thread.



You added web links to the very same items and people the linked show knocks into the dirt-- you're not making new arguments against the documentary here, settling your point-- you're posting the same people talking about it that are rebutted in the video above.




I added a lot more than that. There were some objective views, you clearly never read them. The only person who got knocked into the dirt was Kessler in the video you like so much.

Quote:

coAsTal said:
That's what the Rogan episode is-- where someone involved in the doc gets a chance to rebut the counter-arguments that were made in the series of links you posted. Rogan invited Wilks because he was convinced by Kresser's arguments-- as you seem to be. At the end of the talk, Rogan had changed his view completely.




I never watched the Kresser "debunking", you're just swinging punches hoping some will land. I bet it was a load of shit. Fucking acupuncturists are witchdoctors.

Quote:

coAsTal said:
At the end of the talk, Rogan had changed his view completely.

Rebut that-- but don't just re-assert that which has been confronted while refusing to see that confrontation and expect anyone paying attention to see your view as solid-- because at best your information is incomplete.




I don't have to rebut Joe Rogans opinion, lol. That's puerile. Who the fuck is Joe Rogan? Why the fuck should I care what he thinks is fact? How much do you think Joe read on this topic? He's a talk show host FFS. I don't give a fuck what Oprah thinks either.

You clearly read none of the information I posted or referenced back to the cited studies, at best you glossed over them. Most of the topics that were in the links didn't even come up in the podcast. Use your brain man, you don't need Joe Rogan to use his for you.

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Yet you're posting the same info that is rebutted and has been addressed.
Yet you can't be bothered to listen to the discussion that was posted to see that. Why?




You didn't watch the film, you didn't read the information I posted, you decided Joe Rogan is right because Wilks bully slammed Kessler and shamed him in a "debate". Why?

What have you actually added to this conversation besides saying "watch Joe Rogan"?

Quote:

coAsTal said:
What these (and so many other) people are saying is that compared to vegetarians, meat eaters are less healthy, and die sooner.
That's a factual statement-- and it's been fact as long as people have been studying the question.



This is the sort of bullshit that makes this film a load of dung. It's also a fact that increased icecream sales are an indicator of shark attack prevelancy. Correlation is not causation. Vegetarian people on average tend to be exercise and be more health conscious than a larger proportion of people who eat a hell of a lot of junk food, and meat. There is no science saying eating meat causes premature death. There is solid science saying unhealthy lifestyles do.

In the links I provided earlier there is a link to a study of 1600 vegetarian and omnivorous health conscious people over 10 years and the result was that the health outcomes were identical.


You didn't even watch the film and you are defending it based upon a Joe Rogan podcast? C'mon man. You can do better than that. Take some actual points out of the information provided and shoot the shit if you are going defend the film. Maybe even watch it.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: Northerner]
    #26389177 - 12/18/19 05:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Hehe, I'm going to just stop here, and let you feel great about all your super pointy barbs and emotional attempts at insults. It's clear you are only viewing this discussion as a personal one, and I'm not having the same conversation you are.

(You can tell yourself I "gave up" because you've put me in my place, and that I simply can't come up with any replies to your scathing comments, if that will make you feel better.)

EDIT: And if you'd paid attention to my first post in here, I watched the doc immediately after the Rogan episode man-- I was not taking Rogan's opinion change as my own, I was talking about the facts and studies that were discussed in his show by the producer.

Anyway-- 'nuff said here


Edited by coAsTal (12/18/19 05:19 PM)


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Offlinegopher
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: morrowasted]
    #26389201 - 12/18/19 05:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Fasting-Mimicking Diets,





"fasting mimicking diet", im assuming that link is to valter longo, I think the dude is sorta a quack who found a way to sell fasting, there is no fasting mimicking diet, theres just fasting which has great results, but this guy wants to hold peoples hands and say of course you can eat while fasting and sells his diet


--------------------
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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26389302 - 12/18/19 06:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Hehe, I'm going to just stop here, and let you feel great about all your super pointy barbs and emotional attempts at insults. It's clear you are only viewing this discussion as a personal one, and I'm not having the same conversation you are.

(You can tell yourself I "gave up" because you've put me in my place, and that I simply can't come up with any replies to your scathing comments, if that will make you feel better.)

EDIT: And if you'd paid attention to my first post in here, I watched the doc immediately after the Rogan episode man-- I was not taking Rogan's opinion change as my own, I was talking about the facts and studies that were discussed in his show by the producer.

Anyway-- 'nuff said here



Missed the bit where you said you'd seen the film, I picked up on what someone else said and attributed that to you. Apologies.

Shame you won't take it up further man and we just talk about the film rather than each other, no silly games. Rest assured there's no animosity. What's a few vegans and dead cows between friends anyway? 

It's a topic I'm really interested in, but tends to get out of hand like other black topics.


--------------------
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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26389343 - 12/18/19 06:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm really not upset at you, and I appreciate the above message very much.

I'm heading in to bed for the night, but I will return to talk more later -- thanks again-- my apologies for stoking any tension in my comments


--------------------
I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination--  John Keats

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Re: Game Changers (Plant Based Diet documentary by UFC dude) [Re: coAsTal] * 2
    #26390964 - 12/19/19 04:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think the reason these topics get so contentious is that they are so familiar to everyone-- we all eat.

We all enjoy the taste meat (with a tiny percentage of the population as an exception) and we know no other lifestyle because we're fed the stuff from birth to the grave.

It is treated as heretical-- literally heretical-- to say that it is not a 100% positive thing. Some of the reactions in this thread illustrate that.

What's troubling to me is the way some people can dismiss reports in literature completely because of who they hear it from. What is that? I mean, if you see a circus clown read out of a math textbook, does the information somehow become invalid?

Of course it doesn't... so I always perk up by attention to details when I see a main front of an argument to dismiss anything revolving around "who" is doing the informing. It really shouldn't matter-- it really doesn't matter-- the facts matter.

That's not to say that one can't cherry-pick information-- on each side there is an incentive for doing so... so it is left to the reviewer to decide if the studies (and their proponents) do a fair job of considering the alternatives as a part of their support for a position.

Note that I completely understand this bias works on all fronts-- in both that doc and Rogan episode a lot of time and effort was spent to get people's attention about the nature of industry-funded studies being uniformly in favor of the animal products that they are bankrolled to study.

The cigarette industry parallel was used because it is the same companies and methods used for modern food/pharma PR that once published studies by doctors that "proved" smoking was safe. The correlation not equaling causation mentioned is obvious, and despite that, the phrase can't be used as a shield to deny factual evidence that one disagrees with.

I know some probably want me to parse the detailed point-by-point things from these videos that I want to argue here-- but that's what the doc and follow-up discussions do.
Asking someone to repeat the details already provided is often just a way to dismiss facts found elsewhere by trying to re-argue them with someone that agrees with them that is not a professional. I'm not that person. I'll let the scientists, doctors, and others make their case for it-- I am only here to agree with their conclusions-- not to re-argue their case with someone that disagrees.

It's up to the person that's interested in understanding why plant-oriented food documentaries like this exist to look into it more. To ask why there are so many high-level people from Harvard to the NFL to multi-national health organizations to the US Military that support it in different ways. To explain why it's been consistently true across cultures and conditions.

You watched the content Northern, and you found nothing to agree with. I did, along with pixelpopper, and found the information convincing. Different people see different things I suppose.

My take from the information regarding plant diets being generally superior over mixed ones comes from my own long-term viewing of all kinds of studies over many years-- including the studies in this thread.
But I'm no health advisor-- I've gone from standard American shit diet when I was a kid to whole foods to primal-- whatever--I've played around a lot over the years with all kinds of methods-- I know sugar is bad, and my overall rule is not to eat food with more ingredients than I have fingers on one hand if I can.

I said in the first comment here that I have naturally moved towards less meat as I've gotten older.
I do also take supplements-- at least a multi, but back when I was as ripped as Brad Pitt in Fight Club in my younger heavy labor days, I took ALL the vitamin supplements-- but as it happened most of my diet back then was olive oil, brown rice and whole grains with a little chicken and fish-- only because I was a lazy single guy and I didn't want to bother cooking much. I was in the best shape of my life.

I've also had my share of water-only fasts (my highest was 6 days) and I have seen the profound effect that it has on my overall health. All this may have nothing to do with the things you don't agree with on this topic-- but it tries to explain why I do find the truth in the studies that are shown in this video and re-referenced in the Rogan show.

Regardless of your final view personally, I see the information provided as good and useful-- and just knowing about the physical effects of systemic inflammation and that the body has none with plant-based food where it's extremely common with the majority of animal product eaters gives it an obvious advantage--

Anyway, I've talked enough and swayed nobody-- but I hope people take the time to come to their own conclusions.


--------------------
I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination--  John Keats

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