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InvisibleAstralAndrew
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: openmind]
    #26384207 - 12/15/19 09:49 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

openmind said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Ego death has nothing to do with "ego" as in "egotistical" it has to do with the Freudian version of the word referring to the conscious self.  Egodeath just means the destruction of the sense of self, for example losing control of one's own mind and having your sense of self, identity, and control be replaced with uncontrollable mindfuck. It's a temporary state caused by the effects of psychedelics, not a permanent state.





:werd:


As much as I can't stand the term "ego death" :rolleyes: , ^ that's basically what comes to mind and the sort of stuff I'm referring to when I have used the term "ego death" in the past.

But it's a term, just like the term "break-through", that has become a bit cringe to me in ways for a long time now lol....From how it's thrown around so much to how people feel like it's something that must be achieved or some goal they're trying to reach, to how some folks feel like they've had an "ego death" experience and have an inflated ego because of it...there are all sorts of reasons I don't like the term lol.


...but psychedelics can certainly catalyze one's self/identity to dissolve (during the trip), and have a lasting impact on one's self/"ego" (no doubt most of us would agree psychedelics can have quite an impact on one's self)....That's what comes to my mind when I hear someone say those two words. I've never considered it to be something that is "permanent", as if one is walking around in their day to day life no longer with an "ego" after having "ego death" during a trip.






Quote:

feevers said:
Ego dissolution while on psychedelics can be pretty easy, it mostly just seems to come down to letting go completelty for me. I also think extreme focus, flow states and ecstatic behavior can bring it on. If you're experienced with meditation it can take only a very small amount to get you to that point, or even none at all.  But yea it's no permanent thing at all, sometimes the ego even seems to come back stronger after.






Same here.

And I share the same sentiment.


Mushrooms specifically tend to nudge me into states like extreme focus and flow.






-OM

.



All of this stuff right here^^^


--------------------
:dawerp::awepreciation::trippinbawelz::raveface::aweyeah::awecid:

"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow." - Jim Hightower


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InvisibleRaven44
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Aldebaran]
    #26384211 - 12/15/19 09:51 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think the death of the ego is related to the death of fear, hate, and all non shareable thoughts. Think deep. Heart or brain ?

The ego will never be defined in a society that hides the truths which are being hidden. We live in an information war.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: nooneman]
    #26384379 - 12/16/19 01:18 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Ego death has nothing to do with "ego" as in "egotistical" it has to do with the Freudian version of the word referring to the conscious self.  Egodeath just means the destruction of the sense of self, for example losing control of one's own mind and having your sense of self, identity, and control be replaced with uncontrollable mindfuck. It's a temporary state caused by the effects of psychedelics, not a permanent state.




Exactly.

The only difference is "death" implies a permanent state change, where as we're all still here, so that was absolutely a temporary disassociation. I think the argument is we all know its temporary but keep labeling it a permanent lol.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineCajun love
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26384388 - 12/16/19 01:44 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I have died in trips. I guess that's ego death. Scariest shit ever but I benefited greatly.


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OfflineHolyBolete
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Cajun love]
    #26384456 - 12/16/19 03:22 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

If you implement the changes of said "Ego Death"/old strongly embedded beliefs being obliterated, then you stand a chance of actually being able to say that it was a true change.


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Invisibleacidgoofy
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: HolyBolete]
    #26384584 - 12/16/19 07:24 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I don't understand all your problems with the term ego-death? I mean if you want, you can call it temporary "ego-death" lol xD
or maybe temporary "identity-death" ^^

the first time I came back from that "place" of pure freedome, peace and love. I fully understood what everyone was talking about when they say "ego-death".
Its actually a pretty good description I think because, when you are there you still ARE but the ego is gone and sometimes it can feel like dying before it happens.

probably no person in history of humans has ever had a permanent ego death, some people manage to stop identifying with the ego permanently but they still have it.

After an ego-death its common that the spiritual ego gets stronger and I think thats necessary if you want to go further. But way more than this the experience will humble you. :smile:
thats only my experience.


--------------------
“What you seek is seeking you” Rumi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: acidgoofy]
    #26384608 - 12/16/19 07:41 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

nirvana


is imaginary


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: mushboy] * 2
    #26384646 - 12/16/19 08:05 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm probably wrong but maybe the reason Bod and/or other people have an issue with the term "ego-death"is as mushboy states:

Quote:

mushboy said:
Imo some people are so 'ego' driven and centered that when they take a drug and experience 'ego loss' they can only see it as a death because ego is so much apart of who they think they are.

A persons mannerism is a good way to gauge this.




It seems to be THE term for "comparing dick sizes" so to speak. Some people seem to use it as a way of expressing their superiority. In turn that way of using the word just inflates their ego.



BUT not everyone uses it that way. Actually, most people I've encountered on this site simply use it because it seems like the quickest way to describe the indescribable and because others who have experienced this state can relate. It is a way to spark conversation and to say "I've had this experience known as "ego-death" have you had something similar we can discuss?". I've seen a few people use it as a "status" symbol but so far that has been the minority.

Either way, "ego-death" or not, all we can do is experience the substance in our way and hope to have learned something at the end of it all.


--------------------


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Offlineigorcarajo
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Socrateshroom] * 1
    #26384657 - 12/16/19 08:17 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So basically this thread is arguing semantics. So if instead of calling something “ego death” they would have called it “temporary dissociation” or “weird as fuck” then the OP wouldn’t have posted his/her angry rant. Is that it?


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: bodhisatta] * 2
    #26384674 - 12/16/19 08:31 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
"ego death" is profoundly stupid.

Not a single person in the history of humanity has had ego death because of any psychedelic drug. They may have temporarily felt that way while high. In many ways the people who talk about ego death are really just showing how their psychedelic lessons strengthened their ego.

That's all.





THANK YOU. I have been saying this for years. i hate everything about the term 'ego death' and when i hear it, i cant  help but think itscoming from a noob. its a blanket term that has no meaning thats used to flex your entheo-cock


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Bill_Oreilly] * 1
    #26384782 - 12/16/19 09:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

No one is saying ego death is permanent. if they are they don't have even a surface level understanding of what an ego is.
there is obviously always a ressurrection of the ego after the peak, thats a given. 'Ego loss' might be a more accurate term for you guys  but to me it misses the death process feeling that happens. and I think its good for people in the throes of ego death to be assured that this absolute death feeling is normal & part of the process.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Bill_Oreilly] * 3
    #26384797 - 12/16/19 09:55 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It's a similar thing to the "Entities" discussion.

People (mostly those new to psychedelics and reading what others have written, not yet having their own index of experience to articulate their experiences) have a tendency-- a totally understandable one, by the way-- to use these sweeping, broad labels like "Ego Death" "Break Through" as slang for all kinds of experiences. They do it to fit in, and to try and frame what these new experiences are to them.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, that people are genuinely limited in communication by terminology-- the language used shapes a certain interpretation.
This language matters, especially with new people that are trying to wade into the immense mindscapes of psychedelia.

While the more experienced in this thread have chimed in to explain how the language of "ego death" has established and relevant meaning for them (and have defended it quite well), they are veteran users with a big map on which to draw these impressions.

But when a teenager posts-- as they always do-- that they just had ego death from 3.5g of shrooms, I all too often see "Ego Death" translated to "Whoa Man!", As though it's more an expression of what was, to them, an "extreme state" than a description of one-- a shorthand for "I was fucked up and don't know how to say it".

Well, I can say that my first 2g shroom experience was extreme to me 15 years ago. But since then, it's been absolutely eclipsed-- trivialized into a caffeine high-- compared to the depths of exploration I have known since! Without context and experience, any new state can be felt as extreme.

These kids think "Ego Death" means "The Most Mindfucked"... but it does not mean that.

Worse though, is that by accepting the use of such abstract terms without doing the inward work required over time to process those experiences-- often times the user is permanently confused into thinking they are in a state of ultimate ego dissolution when in fact, when we are able to parse their general description that comes with their story, sounds more like a classic psychedelic disorientative state-- profound as psychedelics are, but distinct from the meaning the "ego death" implies.

I hate to reference Orwell because of political connotations, but the masterful telling of how language used is a tool to confine/direct thinking is no better expressed than in his book 1984.
The guiding principle of Newspeak was to narrow down thinking to plus and minus abstractions-- purposely entrenching vague "good" and "ungood" graduations into all things.
Here's a review of that.

When most people here use the term "Ego Death" in the Newspeak context it could be seen as "DoublePlusTrip". It's not a definition, but an emotional interpretation of intensity.


Here's another (more conventional) article to maybe better enunciate what's going on when we use specific terms and frame things a certain way:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-biolinguistic-turn/201702/how-the-language-we-speak-affects-the-way-we-think
A short excerpt:
Quote:

As I teach linguistics, one of the most intriguing questions for my students is whether all human beings think in a similar way—regardless of the language they use to convey their thoughts—or if the language we speak affects the way we think. This question has entertained philosophers, psychologists, linguists, neuroscientists, and many others for centuries. And everyone has strong opinions about it.

At present, we still lack a definitive answer to this question, but we have gathered evidence (mostly derived from typological analyses of languages and psycholinguistic studies) that can give us a good understanding of the problem. As I will try to show, the evidence argues in favor of a universal groundwork for perception and thought in all human beings, while language is a filter, enhancer, or framer of perception and thought.





I get why people bristle when we kind of attack people for the terms they use, because sure, we know what they're trying to say. The problem with encouraging or accepting those terms without deeper conversation is that we may well be doing them a disservice in their journey, because, based on their own descriptions that go along with their "ego death" experience, often it appears they do not actually know what they're trying to say themselves.


--------------------
I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination--  John Keats

Spore Trading List


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: igorcarajo] * 1
    #26384830 - 12/16/19 10:19 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So basically this thread is arguing semantics. So if instead of calling something “ego death” they would have called it “temporary dissociation” or “weird as fuck” then the OP wouldn’t have posted his/her angry rant. Is that it?




Partly semantics, yes, but also a desire to reserve the term for ultra-serious spiritual pursuits.

'Ego death' is sometimes used as a kind of gratuitous 'badge of honour' which annoys people. It doesn't really add anything to a description of a trip, and sometimes gets plonked on top as a cherry, as if to say, "just so you know, it was a really profound experience."

To be honest, I think some people don't like the term or what it implies because it gives them a "fear of missing out" and they cannot relate to the experience whatever language you use to describe it. Less experienced users feel obliged to reach this 'goal' and naturally ask questions which keep the term in constant use even if it is not especially helpful.

I don't the term is as mysterious as all that. Used in relation to psychedelics it seems to come mainly from Leary's "The Psychedelic Experience" (where he calls it ego loss and compares it to Tibetan Buddhism) or from Stanislav Grof.

Although their writings on the subject are a bit florid and slightly insane (Leary lays it on pretty thick like a crazed cult leader and Grof has some strange ideas) I think you can pick out the gist of what aspect of "The Psychedelic Experience" they are talking about.

You can think of it as a state of pseudo-religious ecstasy as you are overtaken by dissociation, delusion and mania, it doesn't really matter what you call it and you don't have to 'buy in' to any spiritual beliefs to have this kind of trip; new beliefs will be temporarily provided. Ultimately I think it boils down to a certain kind of trip - whether you think it is truly 'deep and profound' is a personal thing, but the point is that a trip can put you in a state which overflows with awe at the same time as it is disrupting and heavily altering your conscious experience, something like this:

Quote:

the physical realm no longer seems to be the primary reality. There seems to be a core of consciousness that can survive anything. You are heading into an oblivion that is something conscious and alive, and you get the sense that although you might die, there is a world beyond death where your consciousness will be transformed and combined into something greater, something unfathomably powerful, the true engine of creation at the heart of the multiverse. And it's this realisation, or something like it, which hits you as you go under, not as a verbal construction but as something you directly experience at a very deep level below the everyday thoughts which have shut down on you.




Trips are messy and a description of the experience is going to end up sounding more neat and tidy than the experience itself. What happens at the precise moment of 'ego death' is not especially important (in my trip journals I rarely mention the term and sometimes refer to this part of the trip as 'falling asleep') but these feelings of awe and rapture will hit you like a freight train as you wake up, and you can carry on tripping into a whole series of grandiose delusions that feel like a revelation of the secrets of the universe.

It's just a trip. It's sometimes hard to tell whether people just don't like the term 'ego death' or they think those kind of trips are a myth.

People use the term in slightly different ways to refer to slightly different aspects of their trips, but they all seem to have a common thread and usually these discussions are fairly amicable even if everybody has their own personal sense of what the term means. To insist that people use or don't use a widespread term in a certain way is just a form of gatekeeping.


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26384901 - 12/16/19 11:00 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ralph Waldo Emerson said:
The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions.




I agree with you, bod, in that it has nothing specifically to do with psychedelics. But I don't think psychedelics are excused from the rule.

Ultimately, the term is just an unnecessary and not even very artful flourish.
Like using zigzags to underline chicken scratch.
For whatever reason, people need something more romantic than just, 'my perception was totally changed.'
But they settled on something that just sounds like some sort of corny ritual initiation.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: coAsTal] * 2
    #26384929 - 12/16/19 11:12 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
It's a similar thing to the "Entities" discussion.

People (mostly those new to psychedelics and reading what others have written, not yet having their own index of experience to articulate their experiences) have a tendency-- a totally understandable one, by the way-- to use these sweeping, broad labels like "Ego Death" "Break Through" as slang for all kinds of experiences. They do it to fit in, and to try and frame what these new experiences are to them.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, that people are genuinely limited in communication by terminology-- the language used shapes a certain interpretation.
This language matters, especially with new people that are trying to wade into the immense mindscapes of psychedelia.

While the more experienced in this thread have chimed in to explain how the language of "ego death" has established and relevant meaning for them (and have defended it quite well), they are veteran users with a big map on which to draw these impressions.

But when a teenager posts-- as they always do-- that they just had ego death from 3.5g of shrooms, I all too often see "Ego Death" translated to "Whoa Man!", As though it's more an expression of what was, to them, an "extreme state" than a description of one-- a shorthand for "I was fucked up and don't know how to say it".

Well, I can say that my first 2g shroom experience was extreme to me 15 years ago. But since then, it's been absolutely eclipsed-- trivialized into a caffeine high-- compared to the depths of exploration I have known since! Without context and experience, any new state can be felt as extreme.

These kids think "Ego Death" means "The Most Mindfucked"... but it does not mean that.

Worse though, is that by accepting the use of such abstract terms without doing the inward work required over time to process those experiences-- often times the user is permanently confused into thinking they are in a state of ultimate ego dissolution when in fact, when we are able to parse their general description that comes with their story, sounds more like a classic psychedelic disorientative state-- profound as psychedelics are, but distinct from the meaning the "ego death" implies.

I hate to reference Orwell because of political connotations, but the masterful telling of how language used is a tool to confine/direct thinking is no better expressed than in his book 1984.
The guiding principle of Newspeak was to narrow down thinking to plus and minus abstractions-- purposely entrenching vague "good" and "ungood" graduations into all things.
Here's a review of that.

When most people here use the term "Ego Death" in the Newspeak context it could be seen as "DoublePlusTrip". It's not a definition, but an emotional interpretation of intensity.


Here's another (more conventional) article to maybe better enunciate what's going on when we use specific terms and frame things a certain way:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-biolinguistic-turn/201702/how-the-language-we-speak-affects-the-way-we-think
A short excerpt:
Quote:

As I teach linguistics, one of the most intriguing questions for my students is whether all human beings think in a similar way—regardless of the language they use to convey their thoughts—or if the language we speak affects the way we think. This question has entertained philosophers, psychologists, linguists, neuroscientists, and many others for centuries. And everyone has strong opinions about it.

At present, we still lack a definitive answer to this question, but we have gathered evidence (mostly derived from typological analyses of languages and psycholinguistic studies) that can give us a good understanding of the problem. As I will try to show, the evidence argues in favor of a universal groundwork for perception and thought in all human beings, while language is a filter, enhancer, or framer of perception and thought.





I get why people bristle when we kind of attack people for the terms they use, because sure, we know what they're trying to say. The problem with encouraging or accepting those terms without deeper conversation is that we may well be doing them a disservice in their journey, because, based on their own descriptions that go along with their "ego death" experience, often it appears they do not actually know what they're trying to say themselves.





💯 best post of the thread 💯


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26384941 - 12/16/19 11:22 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

entities == mara
ego death == nirvana
it's all imaginary


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: footpath]
    #26384949 - 12/16/19 11:30 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Timothy Leary was all about reimprinting your mind.  As I understand, your ego very much seen as one could say, “there egos (he goes) again.”  Now, how another perceived you, gives you a role to play acting out comfortable position to that specific being. You play that role specifically detailed to each individual you meet.  As in flux through life, “hey, let go me ego (waffle).”

At best, other individuals will gladly hold your positioning to presence to the best of being. Some can put weight onto your shoulder, a spell, holding to as specific personification.  For example, a father and son figures where father has expectations to his offspring, has greatly imprinted the mind of child as raised him to best of his capability.  Now, fathers best raising may not be of best raising for there infinite number of role to be of service to throughout ones life. “There egos again!” Says the father.

Now, psychedelic drugs have at best been used for progressive studies. Further the understanding of what is of life. 

As Timothy Leary showed years ago doing study of prison inmates given magic mushroom therapy prior to release, he dropped the return rate down drastically as reimprinted the minds of cold, hard criminals. He killed the egos of what was causing discomfort to those individual life’s where reoffending convictions were of not. 

As the multi faced jewel encrusted beings wear masks changing faster than rolling dice, a well shot to some of those faces can aid the self.

Early Canadian studies showed that substance abuse has been corrected by psychedelic therapy. A death to a ego for reincarnate like effect.

“To fathom hell or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic.” Dr. Humphrey Osmond wrote to Aldous Huxley. 

The ego nothing to trip on. It’s just something Freud used to help him converse what it was he saw needed to use describing what he partook to reality. 

A personal hang up. You got the message. You hung up the phone. A hang up. Get out of that telephone booth. Carry on.

BuddhaSutra.com


--------------------
Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!!

Eye was thinking the other day...  ahh, thinking never done me no good.



Edited by WhoManBeing (12/16/19 11:32 AM)


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OfflineLosTresOjos
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: WhoManBeing]
    #26385118 - 12/16/19 01:07 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Are we arguing semantics? Do people actually associate ego death as a literal thing? As in you'll have no ego after? All it is, is the quieting of the irrational brain


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Invisibleopenmind
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: acidgoofy] * 1
    #26385175 - 12/16/19 01:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Great post Coastal :thumbup:...Aldebaran too :thumbup:







Quote:

acidgoofy said:
....I fully understood what everyone was talking about when they say "ego-death".
Its actually a pretty good description I think because, when you are there you still ARE but the ego is gone and sometimes it can feel like dying before it happens.






The first time I had such an experience it absolutely felt like death :yesnod: .

It was my 3rd or 4th trip with any psychedelic, and the dose was 5g, 10+ years ago....I was laid out and wiped out about 45 minutes after dosing and remained "out" for around 4 hours before I moved at all.

I've always described it as..."becoming nothing more than a point of awareness with out self, nothing more than a point of awareness within a void of caressing vibrations."

"I" was still "aware", awareness is all that "I" was...but there was no "I" involved (for there to be an "I" there needs to be an identity/self/ego, and there was none of that intact)...There was no self or identity or body or anything to go along with the "awareness", there was no memory of ever existing, no memory of ever being a human...everything was wiped away...and while having that experience, the point of awareness that "I" was was immersed in a void with intense vibrations, there was nothing there but vibrations, my entire existence was just awareness in a field of vibration.

...coming back down was really bizarre, slowly remembering what "I" was (a human), then slowly piecing back together things like my name, remembering aspects of my life, friends & family, coming back in touch with my body and physical surroundings.


It really was like a "death" type experience. Having one's self/identity and everything they've ever known completely wiped away & gone, and not even knowing that there was ever anything that existed.





-OM

.


--------------------


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: LosTresOjos] * 5
    #26385207 - 12/16/19 01:53 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LosTresOjos said:
Are we arguing semantics? Do people actually associate ego death as a literal thing? As in you'll have no ego after? All it is, is the quieting of the irrational brain




It just appears to be the temporary cessation of executive function, which is visible in fMRI scans of human brains that are tripping.  It's a real thing obviously and it affects perception in what always feels like a profound way.  So people want to call it something, which isn't wrong.  But there's far more available in trips than just the sort of confusion of identity that arises from that effect, yet it serves as a sort of marker, much like OEVs do, that the trip is actually taking effect.

But compare "temporary cessation of executive function" or "temporary ego dissolution effect" to "ego death" and you'll see why the latter wins in popular usage, good or bad.

What I think people object to is the blurring of meaning that results from indiscriminate labeling, and more than that I expect, the common usage as a noun rather than a verb.  "Ego death" is a process, not a thing.  You can say "I had a HUGE ego death!" but you don't hear "I had a really LONG ego death - it was awesome!"  But the latter is correct usage referring to the process extent in time, not the magnitude of the change.  After all, if something fucking dead, you can't kill it anymore. :laugh2:

The first usage raises hackles because it implies some sort of comparison - "my ego death was bigger/better/harder/purer than yours".  And of course that basically sucks.

Whether people identify wholly with their executive function as "conscious" entities is another discussion, but possibly more fruitful.  We've all met people like that I'm sure, and we think of them (rightly I think) as being ego-bound and/or narcissistic.  And of course those are the kind that, if ever drawn to drugs that dissipate their sense of self-identity, have a very hard time with tripping.


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Edited by PrimalSoup (12/16/19 02:06 PM)


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