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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Azoth]
    #26392679 - 12/20/19 03:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Azoth said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
I think this all comes from the common idea that "fighting the trip" is an ego-driven reaction, whereas going along with the flow takes you much further and results in dissolution or whatever you want to call it.  But until you trip heavily you don't have much idea about what actually happens, and it's really hard to explain to somebody who hasn't been through it, even though they might love hearing about it second hand.




I think that for a lot of people, they "fight the trip" unconsciously. It's kind of a mindfuck. Developmental, but resolvable. Through a bad trip, lol.

Also, define trip heavily.

10+

20+

30+ ?





"Trip heavily" has little enough to do with exact dosage as that varies person to person, species to species, strain to strain, and consumption method.  You can find a sweet spot through experimentation that lets you have recall of the trip afterwards, for the most part.  Although it can be fun to go beyond that as well, there's a sort of plateau that kicks in after a while, and more is not really more, just longer. 

It's OEVs and lies just this side of blackouts, for me.  Blackouts suck because although I come out of it I don't recall what happened there.  You go to places that are not accessible with normal consciousness and you can do things that violate normal models of reality.  And you can laugh while it's happening because it's just so damn fucking cool - and until you do it you've no idea that that's even possible at all.

As Asura said the merging with godhead and the cessation of the boundaries between self and other.  Same thing you can obtain with meditation if you're really dedicated.  But the "beyond that" part, well it doesn't seem to be a part of ordinary meditative practice at all.  It's like taking the hinges off the doors of reality and blasting them wide open. :awesomenod:

The fighting of a trip is not an unconscious thing since you can control it (or let it go).  Fighting the trip never leads to good outcomes. :shrug:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26392968 - 12/20/19 07:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

when you can't react - ego death (coma, or asleep, or really trashed)

when you could react normally but refrain due to being very present with and honest inspiration to be other than usual - ego death (people get this wiggy mental flow state from psychedelics often when approaching life with a 'yogic' outlook)

by dosing heavy you can pretty well assure the former.

the latter happens from time to time with the right set and setting, the dose can be medium low to very high, no matter. like the weather, or fishing.


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: footpath]
    #26394600 - 12/21/19 08:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I appreciate your perspectives on this. You're very clearly much more well-read than I




Thanks, although I must admit I haven't read the book by William James - I've seen references to it and looked at the Wikipedia page :lol:

Talking of William James, I love this quote related to something he wrote:

Quote:

“William James describes a man who got the experience from laughing-gas; whenever he was under its influence, he knew the secret of the universe, but when he came to, he had forgotten it. At last, with immense effort, he wrote down the secret before the vision had faded. When completely recovered, he rushed to see what he had written. It was: "A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.”




I must admit, this is something I can identify with when I look through my trip journals...

:chesire:


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26394624 - 12/21/19 08:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


what the heck are we even discussing, people?

Even the psychedelic community is bickering....





More of a lively discussion, I think!

I was a bit miffed by the tone of the opening post but there's no harm in a bit of debate with a range of opinions as long as people respect each other. joemolloy used to start threads with titles like "DMT is bullshit" and they were quite fun - they made you think, even if you didn't agree with what he said.

Quote:

The big selling point behind psychedelics is the oneness, the acceptance, the feeling of the tribe. Look out for each other. The we are all as one




They tried selling that to mainstream society in the 60s, and not enough people were buying

:awepreciation:

Quote:

how can we expect to persuade the world?




I'm not sure, but I'd avoid mentioning ego death in the Powerpoint presentation...

:wonka:


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Aldebaran]
    #26394718 - 12/21/19 10:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think the term "mystical experience", as defined by William James in his The Varieties of Religious Experience may be a better candidate than 'ego death' to give a general definition of the kind of experiences we are talking about:


although I must admit I haven't read the book by William James - I've seen references to it and looked at the Wikipedia page :lol:




:aliceshocker:  You've not read James' "Varieties"?  Get it, do it.  Not only is it classic it's got loads of weird shit in it that you'd probably find really interesting.  It earned a place on my bookshelf decades ago. :awesomenod:


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Azoth] * 1
    #26394788 - 12/21/19 11:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I keep hearing about this famous "ego death" and I keep thinking that it sounds like bullshit. It just sounds like the type of intensity of experience that a 30+ g trip would require.




Leary gave some specific dosage instructions in The Psychedelic Experience:

Quote:


The dosage to be taken depends, of course, on the goal of the session. Two figures are therefore given. The first column indicates a dosage which should be sufficient for an inexperienced person to enter the transcendental worlds described in this manual. The second column gives a smaller dosage figure, which may be used by more experienced persons or by participants in a group session.

    LSD-25 (lysergic acid diethylamide) 200-500 micrograms 100-200 micrograms
    Mescaline 600-800 mg 300-500 mg
    Psilocybin 40-60 mg 20-30 mg





I have a note from somewhere (don't know the source and can't be sure of the accuracy) which gives an average figure equivalent to 6.3mg of psilocybin in 1g of cubes, so Leary is perhaps talking about a 6-10g range for the larger figure, and 3-5g for the smaller.

I don't think we are talking about 'massive' doses here - if you take very large amounts you will get a lot of dissociation but not necessarily anything corresponding to the more mystical aspects of 'ego death'. My strongest trips (all under 10g or it's equivalent in sclerotia) just felt like being 'eaten' by the trip and transitioning between nightmarish states of dream and wakefulness; harsh but nothing especially amazing, a kind of 'less is more' lesson.

To me, trying to understand what Leary was saying, the term expresses a type of experience which would be a heavy 'level 4' kind of trip with some event corresponding to ego loss / ego death for a brief period at the peak.

:raptorJesus:

Quote:

I am guessing that if you, as Ego-Consciousness, is hell-bent on staying in pathological degrees of control (which is something that we are culturally conditioned to be), then you actually warrant a nice fucking ass-whooping by the dragon that you actually are. But most people, I believe, have enough natural wisdom and healthy correct psychological structuring to avoid such a massive confrontation with consciousness.




The way this kind of trip can play out (I'm talking about my own experiences / opinions) it is very easy to lose your nerve and think something is horribly wrong; you have 'broken' reality, there is some presence in the trip which is freaking you out, an oppressive sense of wrongness, maybe panic... maybe you start to wonder if you are actually dying. A powerful experience, but you are still lucid, the trip is just creeping up on you remorselessly with a very heavy intensity and the trip is leaving you less and less room to 'exist' in, as it were.

I think when you succumb / surrender to this, there is a brief period which is dissociative with mystical overtones. I think your 'executive functions' are asleep, more or less, but some part of you is still conscious, and there is something there which rises up into your awareness, something which feels huge, as if your unconscious suddenly loomed into view and was the size of an aircraft carrier in comparison to your 'self'. There is some weird feeling of connection to everything, a sense of peace and bliss, an oceanic feeling of connection to the universe.

It's a dissociative experience but also an integrative one - as though turning off your sense of self allows a 'conscious experience of the unconscious' to come through. I think you want a dose which is sufficient to cause just enough 'psychic disruption' without mindfucking you into total oblivion.

:owl:

For me, that's about it, you literally 'wake up' into this with a mystical sense of 'awakening' - that you have become aware of something very important for the first time. The mystical feeling and the fact that you are extremely fucking high can combine into all sorts of grandiose feelings of becoming God, unlocking the secrets of the universe and so on. But you are lucid again and back in your room, it's a strong trip but not some dimension-hopping DMT-style visual extravaganza. But... you do think something along the lines of "Wow, I never knew a trip could turn out like this!" which is why people get so excitable when they try to communicate this.

I can read Leary, or the Tibetan Book of the Dead itself, and see the parallels which Leary obviously does, and Huxley before him. I think it's kind of nice that something written so long ago has advice in it which applies quite well to tripping, oddly enough, but I do think this comparison is a 'game' to some extent, a particular way of interpreting a trip which which is interesting but isn't particularly helpful when taken too far - Shr00mEater has pointed out some of the problems of equating this type of experience with 'enlightenment' which is probably what prompted the original post.

:sunstone:

I was curious to see what Wikipedia says about ego death - it seems like a surprisingly good summary. This quote in the "Criticisms of Ego Death" section expresses a similar sentiment to the one that started this thread:

Quote:


SĹŤtĹŤ-Zen teacher Brad Warner has repeatedly criticized the idea that psychedelic experiences lead to "enlightenment experiences". In response to The Psychedelic Experience he wrote:

    While I was at Starwood, I was getting mightily annoyed by all the people out there who were deluding themselves and others into believing that a cheap dose of acid, 'shrooms, peyote, "molly" or whatever was going to get them to a higher spiritual plane





I'm not sure I completely agree with that (I wouldn't necessarily agree that there was a 'real' higher spiritual plane to reach), but in any case most people would agree that temporarily becoming aware of a 'higher spiritual plane' and staying there are two different things. 

Another quote says this:

Quote:

Dan Merkur notes that the use of LSD in combination with Leary's manual often did not lead to ego-death, but to horrifying bad trips.




I would turn that around and say that a horrifying bad trip often leads to ego death. Ego. Death. Death of the self. You are going to die, briefly, in some sense, to be forced into accepting an oblivion which appears to offer no way back. An illusory death is hard to accept if you don't know it is illusory.

It doesn't particularly matter what you believe or what you wanted from the trip, these experiences happen anyway, you can call them whatever you want, but I'm not sure people would be so keen to seek them out if they knew what it can feel like as the trip closes in.

Quote:

If people are having "ego death," let them have it. If they are full of shit, let it be.




That is a sensible attitude. If I read my own posts twenty years ago I would have exactly the same doubts. :shrug:


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Aldebaran]
    #26394914 - 12/22/19 02:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Aldebaran said:


Quote:

how can we expect to persuade the world?




I'm not sure, but I'd avoid mentioning ego death in the Powerpoint presentation...

:wonka:




Hahaha, wise words, Aldebaran.

For years I’ve kept drug use a closely guarded secret because of all the mainstream bias (and invariably mainstream bullshit) held in popular opinion. Like your parents. It is only in the last few years reading the research on psychedelics that my opinion has been changing. And this year I read David Nutt: Drugs Without The Hot Air. I have completely changed my views and am so angry I have been lied to all these years (and that I have believed the lies). My drug use has been more about me suspecting the drug laws were there to control us not to protect us, whereas nowadays I KNOW IT.

Take care,
DJ Ed

p.s. No fortnightly trip report this weekend. Bad week; problems with daughters boyfriend - police involved. Water damage in my car and a flat tyre thus missing two days earnings and garage costs nearly £2000. Then wife taken into hospital by ambulance on Friday. So postponed until yesterday, got the house to myself, then chickened out!! There were too many subconscious reasons swimming about in there that I just ha d a foreboding feeling about tripping. Last night was a long night filled with regrets for not tripping during the solstice. Ah well, there’s another in 6 months.....


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: DJ Ed] * 1
    #26394941 - 12/22/19 03:26 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

After my intense 6g dried trip on solstice, I now understand directly why "belief" in general causes a huge schism in your consciousness that can be filled with all sorts of bullshit you can't discern the validity of.

Belief is insecurity relative to the absolute datum of reality. Direct experience is all there is. Belief is superfluous.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26394996 - 12/22/19 05:41 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
After my intense 6g dried trip on solstice, I now understand directly why "belief" in general causes a huge schism in your consciousness that can be filled with all sorts of bullshit you can't discern the validity of.

Belief is insecurity relative to the absolute datum of reality. Direct experience is all there is. Belief is superfluous.



So you're saying you believe this to be true?


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: feevers]
    #26395005 - 12/22/19 05:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
After my intense 6g dried trip on solstice, I now understand directly why "belief" in general causes a huge schism in your consciousness that can be filled with all sorts of bullshit you can't discern the validity of.

Belief is insecurity relative to the absolute datum of reality. Direct experience is all there is. Belief is superfluous.



So you're saying you believe this to be true?




:mindblown:




Welcome back, Loaded Shaman! Looking forward to a trip report.


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OfflineIndicabuds420
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26395510 - 12/22/19 12:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Sounds a bit PC to me tbh. It's only a figure of speech.


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Invisiblegoatchild
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26396200 - 12/22/19 07:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

First time I took high dose of mushrooms I realized I was not me, there was no Thursday, everything is just conventions we use. Not real. I realized my sense of self who I identified with was also not real. It felt amazing, spacious and free. I don't know if that was ego death. Wasn't dramatic and there was no fear. It was quite unforgettable actually. That was the beginning of the trip. The rest of the trip was difficult.

I read somewhere about the possibility of the Ego being a product of a brain function. The Default Mode Network. And that some of this entheogenic substances diminish the activity in this areas which might be related to the sense of Ego death.


--------------------
"What stands in the way becomes the way."


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OfflineVibe_Enthusiast
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: goatchild]
    #26396278 - 12/22/19 08:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

goatchild said:
First time I took high dose of mushrooms I realized I was not me, there was no Thursday, everything is just conventions we use. Not real. I realized my sense of self who I identified with was also not real. It felt amazing, spacious and free. I don't know if that was ego death. Wasn't dramatic and there was no fear. It was quite unforgettable actually. That was the beginning of the trip. The rest of the trip was difficult.

I read somewhere about the possibility of the Ego being a product of a brain function. The Default Mode Network. And that some of this entheogenic substances diminish the activity in this areas which might be related to the sense of Ego death.



What made your trip difficult afterward? Most people have the issue of swallowing the pill if "time and days and you" doesn't really matter. I think about this sober and it fucks with me. Those pillow thoughts are a trip in itself.


--------------------
:greyalien:




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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Asura]
    #26396283 - 12/22/19 08:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I don't know that I am qualified to even post on this thread, because there are some
amazing insights here from people who can articulate them very well...but here it
goes..

RIPZappa says "only one of the times have I felt out of body not looking through my eyeballs"

This is almost every trip I have. The normal chit chat in my head goes away completely.
I am no longer observing the world as if my consciousness is behind my eyeballs. The experience
becomes very non-dualistic. The boundary between my mind and the outside world seems to
disappear. It is very much like being awake but in a dream. My mind feels
like it is on the outside of my head. I can open my eyes or close them, but I am in the same place
so it doesn't matter. I am no longer experiencing the world as "me" and "everything else".

That's as distilled as I can get it. And as I type this, I find I don't really need or
want to have a term that succinctly describes it. Also, I don't even know if ya'll are
talking about states even beyond this tbh.





I think that fits in with the concept of "ego death" or "ego loss" as Leary called it.

People describe the same kind of thing and seem to roughly agree what they are talking about.

I think one thing that makes the issue confusing is that this can occur in trips which, outside of this state, have widely differing characteristics, so there is no single type of "ego death trip" that you can pin down, you have a range of experiences that people talk about and you have to try and piece together the common thread.

It could happen at the peak of a very difficult trip after fighting to 'stay in control', or it could be more of a graceful sensation of 'letting go'. Leary gave two different dose ranges, with a higher amount required for inexperienced users before they would let go, so I think he was aware that there was more than one route to the same place :peace:


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Aldebaran] * 1
    #26396293 - 12/22/19 08:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Grof talks a lot about "resistant trippers" in regards to LSD IIRC.  Popping the cherry as it were, and after that it's a lot easier to get over the hump. 

Perhaps so-called "ego death" is just part and parcel of a substantive trip and it's silly to try to define it as something separate or different.  I've never seen it as something apart, I don't recall even hearing about it until the internet made these memes popular.


--------------------

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Invisiblegoatchild
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
    #26396314 - 12/22/19 08:31 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I started tripping hard. I saw all kinds of crazy shit. I also did something stupid: I stared at the sun for too long. To this day the center of my vision is a tiny bit blurry but I adapted.


--------------------
"What stands in the way becomes the way."


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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26396399 - 12/22/19 09:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Perhaps so-called "ego death" is just part and parcel of a substantive trip and it's silly to try to define it as something separate or different.




By a spooky coincidence I was just posting something similar on the other thread:

Quote:

Aldebaran wrote: Part of the problem is that defining 'ego death' is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - the wider discussion about how high-dose trips play out overall, and where they go, gets lost trying to define one specific aspect of them.




:hypnotoad:


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Aldebaran] * 1
    #26396485 - 12/22/19 10:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

At root it's weird shit. 



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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26397140 - 12/23/19 10:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Who gives a fuck about what other people believe?

Why does that bother you?


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Re: Believing psychedelics have anything to do with [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26397797 - 12/23/19 03:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks Bodhi-
I have been reading and rereading your easy af teks for months, but his may be my favorite post yet.


--------------------
LAGM 2.024
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How to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice.
Don't Panic




Edited by ReverendMyc (12/23/19 03:54 PM)


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