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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26382218 - 12/14/19 09:16 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You do not own govt money.  You have the right to use it.  Govt has the need for you to use it.

Fact be it that rights can be altered and are only as valid as being recognized.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #26382219 - 12/14/19 09:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
Your proposed benefits dont matter because people pay in and consume different amounts so its re distributive and wrong.
...




The benefits and their broad impacts matter in an appropriate assessment

if you want to go back to your position that you feel it is wrong despite being unable to provide evidence
then that is fine; however, it does reiterate that your claims that the Canadian system is violating human rights
appear to be without any support, aside from the panic that exists in your imagination

ironically, the health system may be the solution in your issue
there are all sorts of treatment for the type of anxieties and delusions you are facing, which are visibly having a negative mental health impact on your life

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
Like I said, police have similar protocol everywhere if someone is to be arrested and wont willingly go with you, initiate force.




Then you should be able to show data from Canada rather than relying on data from the US
if your argument is that since it happens in New Jersey it also happens in Canada, you should have data points of it happening in Canada

but, again, the issue isn't whether or not police use force
we both already agreed that the police should have the right to use force to defend citizens

your specific claim is that the police will use force to subdue or kill citizens who do not pay taxes
and you haven't shown data in support of your point





Taking money from someone and giving it to someone else violates the right to property.  In our healthcare system people are forced to pay varying amounts of money for the same coverage. you said the difference in payment could be accounted for by age. I showed you that there is inequality within not only between generations so people differing amounts throughout their lives not only at certain points in time.

The fact that you may see benefits doesn't mean its not a re distributive system. taking money from someone and using it to fund someone else's healthcare violates the right to property.




https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/penalty-for-tax-evasion-in-canada-159

https://stepstojustice.ca/questions/criminal-law/what-if-police-arrest-me-and-don%E2%80%99t-let-me-leave

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/police-use-of-force-where-is-the-line-1.3090829

So tax evasion is a crime, police can arrest you for a crime and police can subdue you and take you into custody against your will if you do not go willingly. All Canadian sources.





Awesome, thank you
:heart:


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26382235 - 12/14/19 09:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
You do not own govt money.  You have the right to use it.  Govt has the need for you to use it.

Fact be it that rights can be altered and are only as valid as being recognized.



Not so. If I grow food I have produced wealth. money is simply a placeholder for wealth. It was my labour that produced something of value. If I sell that food for money and the government takes the money, they have taken the fruits of my labour.

natural rights are not granted by government they an only be protected by government. they preexist government.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26382238 - 12/14/19 09:23 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Any time :fedora:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26382274 - 12/14/19 09:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

Morel Guy said:
You do not own govt money.  You have the right to use it.  Govt has the need for you to use it.

Fact be it that rights can be altered and are only as valid as being recognized.



Not so. If I grow food I have produced wealth. money is simply a placeholder for wealth. It was my labour that produced something of value. If I sell that food for money and the government takes the money, they have taken the fruits of my labour.

natural rights are not granted by government they an only be protected by government. they preexist government.





Lol, we do not live in the world you wish.  We never did.  Govt was aleays an abusive system that sells security in exchange for your existence,  The system own you and it has always been that way.

America and many places have some rights to estabolish peace and mild progress.  You are still expected to seve he system that allows you to be served.

Those in power have graciously limited their abuse of you. With a great deal of limitations you are expected, demanded to follow.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26382280 - 12/14/19 09:36 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

Morel Guy said:
You do not own govt money.  You have the right to use it.  Govt has the need for you to use it.

Fact be it that rights can be altered and are only as valid as being recognized.



Not so. If I grow food I have produced wealth. money is simply a placeholder for wealth. It was my labour that produced something of value. If I sell that food for money and the government takes the money, they have taken the fruits of my labour.

natural rights are not granted by government they an only be protected by government. they preexist government.





Lol, we do not live in the world you wish.  We never did.  Govt was aleays an abusive system that sells security in exchange for your existence,  The system own you and it has always been that way.

America and many places have some rights to estabolish peace and mild progress.  You are still expected to seve he system that allows you to be served.

Those in power have graciously limited their abuse of you. With a great deal of limitations you are expected, demanded to follow.



yeah thats what I'm arguing against.

I was talking about how things should be you appear to be talking about how things are. in that case disregard my reply because your comment is irrelevant to the discussion we were having.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26382281 - 12/14/19 09:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Any time :fedora:




as a serendipitous sort of development
while reading through the CBC one
the current most read article is an opinion piece about how our health care system may be being changed due to court challenges

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-two-tier-health-care-canada-ireland-1.5383995

not going to copy the text here as it is just an opinion and it is going in to the part of Ireland that is not in the UK
and doesn't weigh on anything we were discussing
just found it funny/cool that it is the "article" most CBC users are reading at the particular moment of being linked to a supporting account on the site





:lol:


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26382284 - 12/14/19 09:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The taxation is theft argument is so radical and fringe, it really doesn’t deserve the effort y’all are making.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26382299 - 12/14/19 09:48 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The taxation is theft argument is so radical and fringe, it really doesn’t deserve the effort y’all are making.



I'm all for taxation to fund the protection of Life Liberty and property and I would not call taxation with just compensation theft. Just to be perfectly clear.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26382310 - 12/14/19 09:56 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

What exactly is healthcare if not protecting life? 🤔


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26382324 - 12/14/19 10:03 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
What exactly is healthcare if not protecting life? 🤔



I'm talking about protecting the right to life. preventing life from being taken.

A right is something that cant be taken away. not something that must be given to you free of charge at someone else's expense.


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26382350 - 12/14/19 10:22 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

koods said:
The taxation is theft argument is so radical and fringe, it really doesn’t deserve the effort y’all are making.



I'm all for taxation to fund the protection of Life Liberty and property and I would not call taxation with just compensation theft. Just to be perfectly clear.




out of interest, where do you stand on the relative morality of disability services?
disability is not covered by healthcare, so this is not really covering the same distribution

but personally find it an intersting area of concern
disability funding is inherently redistributive taxation -- it is money taken from people who can work and given to those who can't
but the issue is slightly more complex than "can't work" as the most extreme examples cannot feed or care for themselves

in your eyes is this a family issue first
and if so, what happens in the (frequent) cases where their families are abusive rather than supportive?

in Manitoba there is an additional metric of complexity wherein some individuals who end up in the system also came from backgrounds on the Reservation, so their extended family also were exempt from many forms of Canadian taxation


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26382372 - 12/14/19 10:37 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Lot's of things will never be ideal.

I do not belief this existence was purposed for ideals.  The problem is we lost feeling for thoughfs.  Our feelings be ame stronger than what we thought we were.  Religion is pretty much people hallicinating that there is something more to their experience.  There is but it's you, the greater aspect of yourself that will kill you just to be whole again.

The search for wholeness created more problems than ever needed be.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26382375 - 12/14/19 10:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Western morality pretty much universally agrees that withholding medical treatment from those with medical needs is unacceptable. The laws of the US and I’m sure Canada require that healthcare providers treat anyone whose life is at risk. So, whether you agree or not, taxpayers are going to pick up some of those costs. Healthcare providers have to charge more to paying customers to cover loses they incur. In the US there is $88 billion in outstanding medical debt. 79 million Americans owe money for healthcare services. Whether you like it or not, a fairly large percent of the population can not afford healthcare costs they have incurred.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26382386 - 12/14/19 10:47 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

In the United States, if you choose to not buy health insurance, you are essentailly gambling with someone else’s money that you won’t get sick, because without insurance very few people could afford the cost of a significant illness or injury. Something like a broken arm will cost you $5k - 10k. An accident that puts you in the hospital for a week would be a minimum $50k. Not being insured is freeloading


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26382563 - 12/15/19 02:47 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I'm all for taxation to fund the protection of Life Liberty and property and I would not call taxation with just compensation theft. Just to be perfectly clear.




Do you have to take the taxes by force even if there's just compensation, though, or is it actually voluntary? If it's by force, even with compensation/representation, that's still theft, just with a nice bubble wrap over it.

What if I don't want what you're offering, like Obama Care?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26382573 - 12/15/19 02:59 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I'm all for taxation to fund the protection of Life Liberty and property and I would not call taxation with just compensation theft. Just to be perfectly clear.




Do you have to take the taxes by force even if there's just compensation, though, or is it actually voluntary? If it's by force, even with compensation/representation, that's still theft, just with a nice bubble wrap over it.

What if I don't want what you're offering, like Obama Care?




Are you a freeloader?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26383260 - 12/15/19 12:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I'm all for taxation to fund the protection of Life Liberty and property and I would not call taxation with just compensation theft. Just to be perfectly clear.




Do you have to take the taxes by force even if there's just compensation, though, or is it actually voluntary? If it's by force, even with compensation/representation, that's still theft, just with a nice bubble wrap over it.

What if I don't want what you're offering, like Obama Care?



There is no just compensation with obamacare. its redistributive.

The government needs to be able to levy taxes. The fact is that we have democratic governments and if people want to spend that tax money on things which are non excludable and non competitive I really have no interest in stopping them right now. It only takes away from our cause, makes libertarians look fringe, and really, focusing on things like that isnt going to help us get rid of  the real violations of human rights.

You can hold onto your dream of a totally bare bones government. thats never going to happen. certainly not in my country. we were not founded on a bloody revolution against tyranny. The queen is acctually still our head of state.

see there are two types of libertarians. those who beleive any initiation of force is inherently immoral, and those who beleive that there are legitimate roles for government but that the government should have very specific restrictions and should for example, not involve its self with the redistribution of wealth or any voluntary transaction between 2 parties except where an unwilling third party is affected.

if citizens want the government to continue funding something like public playgrounds (which are non excludable, non competitive, and frankly not very costly anyway) ideally the local, municipal governments would fund that. that way peopel can move. if the federal government puts something into law there is no argument that can be made that the law is voluntary.

a municipality funding a playground is really not what I'm concerned about. Im far more concerned by the acctual taking of ones money so it can be spent on someone else. If my city wants to take like $10 from me to build a playground that will require almost no funding to upkeep and which everyone can truly have equal access to. I'm not going to freak out about that.


Edited by BANANA.MAN (12/15/19 12:16 PM)


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26383273 - 12/15/19 12:20 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Western morality has no qualms about bankrupting a person over medical costs which are hugely exaggerated so people in the INDUSTRY can be rich.

People don't become doctors to help people.  If that were true, they wouldn't charge an arm and a leg.  It's an industry that people get into for egotistical prowess.  WHICH just so happens to require some actual service helping people.

Drs charge a lot to find nothing out and lack a lot of resources in treatment.  There is so much hype in the next treatment.  Chances are it probably sat on a researchers shelf and was barely modified from an older treatment.

Imagine if all farmers held out on selling food and only sold it very half your life savings.  The Government would never stand for that.  Yet medically they swing prices all over the place.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26383275 - 12/15/19 12:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There is no just compensation with obamacare. its redistributive.




Obamacare is just the structure and rules for setting up private insurance markets. Before Obamacare, you generally could not buy an individual insurance plan. Insurance was almost entirely provided through employers.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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