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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26378225 - 12/12/19 10:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Im not advocating for denying care to anyone. I'm saying other people shouldnt have to pay for their care. just like nobody should have to pay for my care besides me. 

and whether or not something was available when they paid into the system is irrelevant. what matters is the amount of money they put in. if it isnt re distributive like you say then they should simply get the amount they paid in back now and that can be spent on whatever process is available as long as they get what they paid back. but they dont get what they paid back

and people will not get the same value that they put in back. some people get less, some people get more. the highest earners pay 80 times what the lowest earners pay in public health insurance annually and the difference in earning can not simply be explained by age as you tried to say because there are earning gaps within generations.


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: feevers]
    #26378227 - 12/12/19 10:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

feevers said:
I had to quit my job over the summer because even with insurance my wife and I were looking at $15k+ in medical bills for an MRI, CT scan and a couple other tests and appointments.

When I quit I got right on medicaid and got everything done for free. I now have no copays for anything even specialists, no deductibles, no monthly payments, free psychotherapy and physical therapy, and I think $3.50 is the most I can pay for a perscription.

Pretty backwards system that I'd end up losing money if I had kept working. Going to miss this insurance so much when I start working again in a couple weeks, there's so much stuff I neglect due to rediculous copays and deductibles.




Interestingly, despite my bragging and commentary about the benefits of the Canadian system
this is a similiar case for me

my HRT pills are not technically covered under health care
instead, the provincial disability services cover my prescriptions in entirety
so the tax dollars that go to disability services get apportioned and paid to the health care system to offset the health care cost to tax payers
while the disability system is still at a cost to tax payers

comparing the disability system to the healthcare system
it is quite easy to recognize disability as being an entirely redistributive system
where people who are classified as unable to work are supported on the backs of those who can

but disability is interestingly an adjacent system to healthcare rather than a branch of it
and also has other, more robust, services
like people who are provided housing, food, and a personal care government assistant  to get them through their days


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26378241 - 12/12/19 10:46 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Im not advocating for denying care to anyone. I'm saying other people shouldnt have to pay for their care. just like nobody should have to pay for my care besides me. 

and whether or not something was available when they paid into the system is irrelevant. what matters is the amount of money they put in. if it isnt re distributive like you say then they should simply get the amount they paid in back now and that can be spent on whatever process is available as long as they get what they paid back. but they dont get what they paid back

and people will not get the same value that they put in back. some people get less, some people get more. the highest earners pay 80 times what the lowest earners pay in public health insurance annually and the difference in earning can not simply be explained by age as you tried to say because there are earning gaps within generations.




Interesting position, particularly underlined
does this mean you think people should only have access to services they paid for so far?
a 20 year old with a major heart issue doesn't get the surgery because they haven't paid yet
an elderly person with no income but who still gets charged sales tax on all purchases doesn't get their pacemaker until they've bought enough stuff at wal-mart for their individual tax payments to cover it?

to reiterate, totally get your position
at any one point in time, the health care system is redistributive
but the system is not measured by it's impact at a single point in time, it is a continual broad coverage system
we all continue to pay in so the system can expand, develop new technologies, and be there to catch us when we need it

have already recognized that gap where the highest earners who make money off of multiple people benefit from the health and well-being of those people


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26378275 - 12/12/19 11:06 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Im not advocating for denying care to anyone. I'm saying other people shouldnt have to pay for their care. just like nobody should have to pay for my care besides me. 

and whether or not something was available when they paid into the system is irrelevant. what matters is the amount of money they put in. if it isnt re distributive like you say then they should simply get the amount they paid in back now and that can be spent on whatever process is available as long as they get what they paid back. but they dont get what they paid back

and people will not get the same value that they put in back. some people get less, some people get more. the highest earners pay 80 times what the lowest earners pay in public health insurance annually and the difference in earning can not simply be explained by age as you tried to say because there are earning gaps within generations.




Interesting position, particularly underlined
does this mean you think people should only have access to services they paid for so far?
a 20 year old with a major heart issue doesn't get the surgery because they haven't paid yet
an elderly person with no income but who still gets charged sales tax on all purchases doesn't get their pacemaker until they've bought enough stuff at wal-mart for their individual tax payments to cover it?

to reiterate, totally get your position
at any one point in time, the health care system is redistributive
but the system is not measured by it's impact at a single point in time, it is a continual broad coverage system
we all continue to pay in so the system can expand, develop new technologies, and be there to catch us when we need it

have already recognized that gap where the highest earners who make money off of multiple people benefit from the health and well-being of those people



you just took me reiterating your claim as me stating my position :facepalm:

I think people should save for retirement and I think people should donate to people in hard times. I dont think anyone should have a legal obligation to give anyone else their money.


Edited by BANANA.MAN (12/12/19 11:08 PM)


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26378299 - 12/12/19 11:30 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Im not advocating for denying care to anyone. I'm saying other people shouldnt have to pay for their care. just like nobody should have to pay for my care besides me. 

and whether or not something was available when they paid into the system is irrelevant. what matters is the amount of money they put in. if it isnt re distributive like you say then they should simply get the amount they paid in back now and that can be spent on whatever process is available as long as they get what they paid back. but they dont get what they paid back

and people will not get the same value that they put in back. some people get less, some people get more. the highest earners pay 80 times what the lowest earners pay in public health insurance annually and the difference in earning can not simply be explained by age as you tried to say because there are earning gaps within generations.




Interesting position, particularly underlined
does this mean you think people should only have access to services they paid for so far?
a 20 year old with a major heart issue doesn't get the surgery because they haven't paid yet
an elderly person with no income but who still gets charged sales tax on all purchases doesn't get their pacemaker until they've bought enough stuff at wal-mart for their individual tax payments to cover it?

to reiterate, totally get your position
at any one point in time, the health care system is redistributive
but the system is not measured by it's impact at a single point in time, it is a continual broad coverage system
we all continue to pay in so the system can expand, develop new technologies, and be there to catch us when we need it

have already recognized that gap where the highest earners who make money off of multiple people benefit from the health and well-being of those people



you just took me reiterating your claim as me stating my position :facepalm:

I think people should save for retirement and I think people should donate to people in hard times. I dont think anyone should have a legal obligation to give anyone else their money.




So:
Quote:

and whether or not something was available when they paid into the system is irrelevant. ... but they dont get what they paid back



wasn't your position? 
My mistake, did not realize you had finally come around to recognize that people do get what they paid back

My reference to the underlined portion specifically was simply asking how your position (as expressed above) plays out in actual situations
where people get medical services worth more than they paid for, and are then able to continue paying in for longer

but it seems that your position is a 20 year old who is dying from a major heart issue should sit on the street with a cup begging for change to save their life
and an elderly person who enjoyed a bit too much of their retirement funds down south before they needed a pacemaker should have saved more

fortunately, regardless of your position the system will be there to catch you when you fall


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26378454 - 12/13/19 03:45 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think a massive contributor to morbid obesity and type 2 diabetes and heart disease is the government insisting grains be the biggest part of people's diet (food pyramid propaganda) for the last 35-40+ years.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26379190 - 12/13/19 12:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I did not come around to that at all. I was specifically saying people dont het back what they paid.


I just showed you evidence that proved tour position wrong. why would I suddenly pivot to that position? People within the same generarion pay different amounts to tax over their lifetime. ergo your point about getting what you paid back when you retire

I was saying according to YOUR positon that peope get back what they pay later in life it shouldnt matter what technologies are used it should matter what the price is.

Post after post you have twisted what I have said. You are being openly dishonest at this point. you're trying to make it not about redistribution and bring it into new territory. You have up on your argument that police wont innitiate force on people who break the law, and now you're trying to sneak away from the discussjon about whether or not healthcare in Canada is redistributive. All you want to do is pull the conversation away from the unreasonable claims you have made without adressing that they are wrong. you want to go away from the root of our disagreements into new areas.


I think we need community and people should help eachother and cooperate.

In order to have freedom people need to have the freedom to make the wrong choices unless those choices infringe on the rights of others.

when you let the "common good" trump individual rights, you leave it up to whomever is in power to decide what constitutes the common good and how to get there. I dont think government should be that involved in our lives.


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Offlinekoods
Ribbit
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Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,329
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 49 minutes, 20 seconds
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26379199 - 12/13/19 12:46 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I think a massive contributor to morbid obesity and type 2 diabetes and heart disease is the government insisting grains be the biggest part of people's diet (food pyramid propaganda) for the last 35-40+ years.




You probably don’t have the best understanding of proper nutrition.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/13/19 12:56 PM)


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26379214 - 12/13/19 12:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I did not come around to that at all. I was specifically saying people dont het back what they paid.


I just showed you evidence that proved tour position wrong. why would I suddenly pivot to that position? People within the same generarion pay different amounts to tax over their lifetime. ergo your point about getting what you paid back when you retire

I was saying according to YOUR positon that peope get back what they pay later in life it shouldnt matter what technologies are used it should matter what the price is.

Post after post you have twisted what I have said. You are being openly dishonest at this point. you're trying to make it not about redistribution and bring it into new territory. You have up on your argument that police wont innitiate force on people who break the law, and now you're trying to sneak away from the discussjon about whether or not healthcare in Canada is redistributive. All you want to do is pull the conversation away from the unreasonable claims you have made without adressing that they are wrong. you want to go away from the root of our disagreements into new areas.
...




My position has been that people get what they pay back,
my position is based on the realities that exist with the system being a continuing system

your position is that people don't get what they paid back, because you isolate your view to any single point in time
and don't reflect an understanding of how the system actually works
and when asked to address how your position works in actual context, you instead write paragraphs trying to accuse me of straying from the topic

did not give up on the argument that police will not initiate force,
just gave up asking you for proof because you keep telling me an imaginary story instead of providing evidence

perhaps in another 10 years of life experience or so your position will change as you come to actually comprehend things tho
that is how it worked for me -- in my early 20s, was on your side of these arguments

have been through the healthcare system; have been through the employment insurance system
have had taxable income, have had non-taxable income
can give you information, can't give you experience


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Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,329
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 49 minutes, 20 seconds
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26379222 - 12/13/19 12:58 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Universal healthcare isn’t about getting back what you paid in. That’s not how disease works. Some people get expensive diseases. Others don’t. It’s pretty fucking random.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26379244 - 12/13/19 01:06 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Universal healthcare isn’t about getting back what you paid in. That’s not how disease works. Some people get expensive diseases. Others don’t. It’s pretty fucking random.




Did not argue that is what it is "about"
simply recognize that is the impact the system has

similiar to herd immunization


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26379276 - 12/13/19 01:29 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
South Dakota has the fewest doctors per capita. That’s a double whammy. Rural medicine is a huge problem in the US. We import doctors and their work authorization require them to work in underserved areas for a set period of time.




Canada's method of covering this is basically having the important coverage consistently available, even in areas where it is rarely used
it's cheaper to run mental health services as a online lecture
where the service worker in the 'teaching' position is in one populated area
with an internet connection to show up as video feed -- with a matching mic to communicate questions back and forth
and have several rural areas sit in through net connection

personally go to the central city, and end up in a room with around 20-30 people
but other locations that we link to may have 1 or 2 people in their 'lecture' room with the computer
or, in some instances, not have anyone in that area attending those few weeks
at which point the computer is turned off in that location

it also means dingy little offices with a handful of workers out in the middle of nowhere
my current mental health worker has an office out in a town of 1000 people
and on days of not having appointments scheduled there, may instead be doing services in the capital city


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26380421 - 12/14/19 12:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I did not come around to that at all. I was specifically saying people dont het back what they paid.


I just showed you evidence that proved tour position wrong. why would I suddenly pivot to that position? People within the same generarion pay different amounts to tax over their lifetime. ergo your point about getting what you paid back when you retire

I was saying according to YOUR positon that peope get back what they pay later in life it shouldnt matter what technologies are used it should matter what the price is.

Post after post you have twisted what I have said. You are being openly dishonest at this point. you're trying to make it not about redistribution and bring it into new territory. You have up on your argument that police wont innitiate force on people who break the law, and now you're trying to sneak away from the discussjon about whether or not healthcare in Canada is redistributive. All you want to do is pull the conversation away from the unreasonable claims you have made without adressing that they are wrong. you want to go away from the root of our disagreements into new areas.
...




My position has been that people get what they pay back,
my position is based on the realities that exist with the system being a continuing system

your position is that people don't get what they paid back, because you isolate your view to any single point in time
and don't reflect an understanding of how the system actually works
and when asked to address how your position works in actual context, you instead write paragraphs trying to accuse me of straying from the topic

did not give up on the argument that police will not initiate force,
just gave up asking you for proof because you keep telling me an imaginary story instead of providing evidence

perhaps in another 10 years of life experience or so your position will change as you come to actually comprehend things tho
that is how it worked for me -- in my early 20s, was on your side of these arguments

have been through the healthcare system; have been through the employment insurance system
have had taxable income, have had non-taxable income
can give you information, can't give you experience



Even if you dont look at it at one point in time people pay different amounts toward public healthcare throughout their lifetime

As I showed there is income inequality within generarions not merely between them.


Edited by BANANA.MAN (12/14/19 12:46 AM)


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26380426 - 12/14/19 12:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
https://www.nj.com/news/2018/11/every_way_a_police_officer_is_legally_allowed_to_harm_another_person_from_a_to_z.html

"Officers across New Jersey are trained under state guidelines to use a reasonable level of force to quickly and safely make an arrest if a suspect resists or threatens to harm themselves or another person."

"“Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed "

"A compliance hold is a painful maneuver using pressure points to gain control over a suspect.

The most common moves are arm bars and wrist locks, which are used to walk a person out of an area or toward safety to make an arrest. From 2012 through 2016, officers reported using compliance holds 56,928 times, or about 81 percent of the time when they used force, data shows.

If necessary, an officer can transition from a compliance hold into a takedown."

"Police are also authorized to kick or knee somebody who is refusing to comply with orders during an arrest."


This is about new jersey but this is all pretty common police protocol. I dont think there are many police departments who will give up on arresting people just because they say no.




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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26380516 - 12/14/19 02:36 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I did not come around to that at all. I was specifically saying people dont het back what they paid.


I just showed you evidence that proved tour position wrong. why would I suddenly pivot to that position? People within the same generarion pay different amounts to tax over their lifetime. ergo your point about getting what you paid back when you retire

I was saying according to YOUR positon that peope get back what they pay later in life it shouldnt matter what technologies are used it should matter what the price is.

Post after post you have twisted what I have said. You are being openly dishonest at this point. you're trying to make it not about redistribution and bring it into new territory. You have up on your argument that police wont innitiate force on people who break the law, and now you're trying to sneak away from the discussjon about whether or not healthcare in Canada is redistributive. All you want to do is pull the conversation away from the unreasonable claims you have made without adressing that they are wrong. you want to go away from the root of our disagreements into new areas.
...




My position has been that people get what they pay back,
my position is based on the realities that exist with the system being a continuing system

your position is that people don't get what they paid back, because you isolate your view to any single point in time
and don't reflect an understanding of how the system actually works
and when asked to address how your position works in actual context, you instead write paragraphs trying to accuse me of straying from the topic

did not give up on the argument that police will not initiate force,
just gave up asking you for proof because you keep telling me an imaginary story instead of providing evidence

perhaps in another 10 years of life experience or so your position will change as you come to actually comprehend things tho
that is how it worked for me -- in my early 20s, was on your side of these arguments

have been through the healthcare system; have been through the employment insurance system
have had taxable income, have had non-taxable income
can give you information, can't give you experience



Even if you dont look at it at one point in time people pay different amounts toward public healthcare throughout their lifetime

As I showed there is income inequality within generarions not merely between them.




and what of the benefits of the system

your theoretical position is fine, and not being challenged
simply looking for support of the actual statement made against Canada's existing system

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
https://www.nj.com/news/2018/11/every_way_a_police_officer_is_legally_allowed_to_harm_another_person_from_a_to_z.html

"Officers across New Jersey are trained under state guidelines to use a reasonable level of force to quickly and safely make an arrest if a suspect resists or threatens to harm themselves or another person."

"“Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed "

"A compliance hold is a painful maneuver using pressure points to gain control over a suspect.

The most common moves are arm bars and wrist locks, which are used to walk a person out of an area or toward safety to make an arrest. From 2012 through 2016, officers reported using compliance holds 56,928 times, or about 81 percent of the time when they used force, data shows.

If necessary, an officer can transition from a compliance hold into a takedown."

"Police are also authorized to kick or knee somebody who is refusing to comply with orders during an arrest."


This is about new jersey but this is all pretty common police protocol. I dont think there are many police departments who will give up on arresting people just because they say no.







In Manitoba, refusing to work results in losing access to funds provided by the government to work
meet people at the EI office when dropping off my disability forms who spend their summers in a tent
however, the legalities of not working or sources of income as non-taxable is handled through the Jobs and Economy board
rather than the Health Services board, which is in charge of things like ensuring essential services are available to all citizens

having never lived in Ontario, and recognizing that distribution of health services is the responsibility of the provincial government,
do recognize the possibility that the system you deal with is mismanaged

if y'all are subcontracting out to the New Jersey police, my heart goes out to you :heart:


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OfflinemeaculpaUIO
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Registered: 08/26/19
Posts: 956
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26380757 - 12/14/19 07:11 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Those who argue property rights to not pay for other people's needs and health, could try to include inequality in their analysis. Why are americans so afraid of strong social benefits? Why do they think it's legit capitalism, instead of unregulated CHRONY capitalism, to allow stuff like medication for diabetes and vaccines be inaffordable for many low wage workers which serve up the coffe's, cars and hair of the richer middle class.

How does a environment do, where everyone is altruistic compared to a environment where everyone is egoistic? Greedy, filled with desire and ambition to build, control, expand, grow, always. Many men are especially immature, unwise and celebrate war, victory, success, wealth, physical and sexual domination.

Where is the politicians with radical analysis of the human civilization, who talk to us a unified group, who will not let their goals justify cruel or unfair methods, who are not willing to accept the current situation at all?
Who see what we are capable of, and manage to bring it out in us.

Who WILL save the economy of greed and unlimited growth, focus on our CIVILIZATION and evolving humanity as a culture and a species, who will take funds from war and add them to scientific and social research, who will take the money out of the skyscrapers and furnish the streets upon which most of us WALK?

Who will say that we should focus on necessities, not luxury and hedony

We are looking for better leaders, but most of all do nothing to promote the ideas that need to be promoted for these leaders to exist, show up and rule.

Instead many opt out, stop reading, avoid the world, and focus on building their little empire and tribe.
You have given up the world, and if everyone did like that we would be so much less

Be the change


Edited by meaculpaUIO (12/14/19 07:21 AM)


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26381261 - 12/14/19 12:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I did not come around to that at all. I was specifically saying people dont het back what they paid.


I just showed you evidence that proved tour position wrong. why would I suddenly pivot to that position? People within the same generarion pay different amounts to tax over their lifetime. ergo your point about getting what you paid back when you retire

I was saying according to YOUR positon that peope get back what they pay later in life it shouldnt matter what technologies are used it should matter what the price is.

Post after post you have twisted what I have said. You are being openly dishonest at this point. you're trying to make it not about redistribution and bring it into new territory. You have up on your argument that police wont innitiate force on people who break the law, and now you're trying to sneak away from the discussjon about whether or not healthcare in Canada is redistributive. All you want to do is pull the conversation away from the unreasonable claims you have made without adressing that they are wrong. you want to go away from the root of our disagreements into new areas.
...




My position has been that people get what they pay back,
my position is based on the realities that exist with the system being a continuing system

your position is that people don't get what they paid back, because you isolate your view to any single point in time
and don't reflect an understanding of how the system actually works
and when asked to address how your position works in actual context, you instead write paragraphs trying to accuse me of straying from the topic

did not give up on the argument that police will not initiate force,
just gave up asking you for proof because you keep telling me an imaginary story instead of providing evidence

perhaps in another 10 years of life experience or so your position will change as you come to actually comprehend things tho
that is how it worked for me -- in my early 20s, was on your side of these arguments

have been through the healthcare system; have been through the employment insurance system
have had taxable income, have had non-taxable income
can give you information, can't give you experience



Even if you dont look at it at one point in time people pay different amounts toward public healthcare throughout their lifetime

As I showed there is income inequality within generarions not merely between them.




and what of the benefits of the system

your theoretical position is fine, and not being challenged
simply looking for support of the actual statement made against Canada's existing system

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
https://www.nj.com/news/2018/11/every_way_a_police_officer_is_legally_allowed_to_harm_another_person_from_a_to_z.html

"Officers across New Jersey are trained under state guidelines to use a reasonable level of force to quickly and safely make an arrest if a suspect resists or threatens to harm themselves or another person."

"“Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed "

"A compliance hold is a painful maneuver using pressure points to gain control over a suspect.

The most common moves are arm bars and wrist locks, which are used to walk a person out of an area or toward safety to make an arrest. From 2012 through 2016, officers reported using compliance holds 56,928 times, or about 81 percent of the time when they used force, data shows.

If necessary, an officer can transition from a compliance hold into a takedown."

"Police are also authorized to kick or knee somebody who is refusing to comply with orders during an arrest."


This is about new jersey but this is all pretty common police protocol. I dont think there are many police departments who will give up on arresting people just because they say no.







In Manitoba, refusing to work results in losing access to funds provided by the government to work
meet people at the EI office when dropping off my disability forms who spend their summers in a tent
however, the legalities of not working or sources of income as non-taxable is handled through the Jobs and Economy board
rather than the Health Services board, which is in charge of things like ensuring essential services are available to all citizens

having never lived in Ontario, and recognizing that distribution of health services is the responsibility of the provincial government,
do recognize the possibility that the system you deal with is mismanaged

if y'all are subcontracting out to the New Jersey police, my heart goes out to you :heart:



Your proposed benefits dont matter because people pay in and consume different amounts so its re distributive and wrong.


Like I said, police have similar protocol everywhere if someone is to be arrested and wont willingly go with you, initiate force.


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26381947 - 12/14/19 07:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
Your proposed benefits dont matter because people pay in and consume different amounts so its re distributive and wrong.
...




The benefits and their broad impacts matter in an appropriate assessment

if you want to go back to your position that you feel it is wrong despite being unable to provide evidence
then that is fine; however, it does reiterate that your claims that the Canadian system is violating human rights
appear to be without any support, aside from the panic that exists in your imagination

ironically, the health system may be the solution in your issue
there are all sorts of treatment for the type of anxieties and delusions you are facing, which are visibly having a negative mental health impact on your life

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
Like I said, police have similar protocol everywhere if someone is to be arrested and wont willingly go with you, initiate force.




Then you should be able to show data from Canada rather than relying on data from the US
if your argument is that since it happens in New Jersey it also happens in Canada, you should have data points of it happening in Canada

but, again, the issue isn't whether or not police use force
we both already agreed that the police should have the right to use force to defend citizens

your specific claim is that the police will use force to subdue or kill citizens who do not pay taxes
and you haven't shown data in support of your point


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OfflineMorel Guy
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 15,577
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26381965 - 12/14/19 07:26 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Old post but America is becoming materially bankrupt fast.  Fracking just shows how rare oil is becoming.  Most mines are becoming more dangerous and less profitable.  Canada has far more untapped resources.  2 world wars has greatly drained Americas non renewable resources.  As well as hugely polluted the hell out of the land.

America has been operating on vastly over inflated credit it cannot foreseeably pay off, ever!


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26382209 - 12/14/19 09:13 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
Your proposed benefits dont matter because people pay in and consume different amounts so its re distributive and wrong.
...




The benefits and their broad impacts matter in an appropriate assessment

if you want to go back to your position that you feel it is wrong despite being unable to provide evidence
then that is fine; however, it does reiterate that your claims that the Canadian system is violating human rights
appear to be without any support, aside from the panic that exists in your imagination

ironically, the health system may be the solution in your issue
there are all sorts of treatment for the type of anxieties and delusions you are facing, which are visibly having a negative mental health impact on your life

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
Like I said, police have similar protocol everywhere if someone is to be arrested and wont willingly go with you, initiate force.




Then you should be able to show data from Canada rather than relying on data from the US
if your argument is that since it happens in New Jersey it also happens in Canada, you should have data points of it happening in Canada

but, again, the issue isn't whether or not police use force
we both already agreed that the police should have the right to use force to defend citizens

your specific claim is that the police will use force to subdue or kill citizens who do not pay taxes
and you haven't shown data in support of your point





Taking money from someone and giving it to someone else violates the right to property.  In our healthcare system people are forced to pay varying amounts of money for the same coverage. you said the difference in payment could be accounted for by age. I showed you that there is inequality within not only between generations so people differing amounts throughout their lives not only at certain points in time.

The fact that you may see benefits doesn't mean its not a re distributive system. taking money from someone and using it to fund someone else's healthcare violates the right to property.




https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/penalty-for-tax-evasion-in-canada-159

https://stepstojustice.ca/questions/criminal-law/what-if-police-arrest-me-and-don%E2%80%99t-let-me-leave

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/police-use-of-force-where-is-the-line-1.3090829

So tax evasion is a crime, police can arrest you for a crime and police can subdue you and take you into custody against your will if you do not go willingly. All Canadian sources.

Legislation is super boring to read. its much easier to use sources from people who have already done the work of sorting through he legislation and compiling the relevant parts. The New Jersey one was the most comprehensive source I could find.


Edited by BANANA.MAN (12/14/19 09:16 PM)


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