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OfflineBlabble40
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Registered: 11/11/14
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"Just" saying stuff
    #26381726 - 12/14/19 05:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Has this ever come up with anyone on trips, or is it just a concern with me? Major, life changing events can occur when you do or don't say, write, or type, certain things.

For example computer programming or musical instrument ability, such as a skill, can determine whether it's possible or appropriate to say certain things to people, similar to if it could also determine whether how much money you have is important or not. Usually social and civilizational matters of importance can set precedence on what someone is responsible for knowing or doing.

Another thing this is applicable for are certain questions, such as the whole "images in your head" thing.

Some people who don't do drugs or practice hallucination are prone to acting more important because they place importance on imagination, which is a topic I've seen come up here. I think it's BS and presumptuous. They say the more drugs you do the more you add to sins performed, but some religious leader consider psychedelics okay to use. In some minds all they do is add cartoon like imagery in your head. It's when people with big egos think their brain is more complex, or something, that they can form web like images without drugs. That's because the syntax of the sentence implies logic that's just easier to socially manipulate instead of seeking the truth. It sounds like it implies that people who do drugs are inferior because they "need" something to assist them in some goal they might have. However, that's only confusing to people without grasp on language, whether knowing any foreign ones help at all. So, it's presumptuous and pretentious, which has fallen out of favor recently along with sarcasm and irony, the bait to make them surface and more apparent was again part of the plan, once trapped within it, they move on to the next stage of their attempted demonstration of mastery of irony. Ultimately, it's similar to the World's Most Dangerous Game or Nazi era propaganda and technology.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Blabble40]
    #26381733 - 12/14/19 05:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No idea what you ar getting at.

I do my best to ignore truth.  People and myself are mowtly intrests in surviving and doing that very well.

Sometimes recreational thought becomes an obsession to people.  Tripping definitely borders obsessive.  Although I find peopl grow out of it.

We live in a society that legalizes wrongs.  If you commit  crimes under state authority, you are a hero.  Power is something that thought alone is not capable of other than acceptance and interpretation.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineIcon
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #26382477 - 12/15/19 12:22 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm also confused what OP is getting at. But it reminds me of this guy with an inflated ego who often came off as fake. He'd often talk with a lot of exaggeration to impress people with his PoV. Like a chameleon, he'd change energy around different people to cater to what would impress them. Once you see it enough you start to wonder whether he has a genuine personality. The way he'd describe trips was so extra. Every experience was like an alien abduction into Egypt with tons of new-age references to hype it up. I think he was probably having minimal trips and just describing them in the most bizarre way he could to try to fit in.

Another phenomena I see a lot with DMT trips is people reading too much about other people's experiences and expecting theirs to be a certain way. They go in expecting entities, machine elves, self-dribbling basketballs, and things that Terrence and others have described. There's so much potential for people to see something truly unique and bring back a novel description of it, but it's like people's expectations limit their potential for creativity. I think going into DMT completely unprepared is the best way, and truly allowing yourself to experience something unique instead of trying to check all the boxes that other people have mentioned.

Ultimately our imaginations are limited by our life's experiences. We likely can't imagine the next hit single without already being an adept musician with tons of musical memories to draw from. Or an artist with knowledge of aesthetics, etc. Listening to other people's music, watching movies, playing video games, reading trip reports, etc. stimulate the imagination; but may weaken our ability to be creative, like a muscle that doesn't get used. Psychedelics are very useful tools for stimulating creativity IMO.


Edited by Icon (12/15/19 12:34 AM)


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OfflineBlabble40
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Icon]
    #26382512 - 12/15/19 01:27 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Then it's all just people drawing from your energy in order to spark a conversation. They just provoke it out, instead of asking directly like people used to.

The point is, the answer is obvious, but they convince everyone that if you don't answer or talk about it, then you don't know, or can't do it, when a couple other possibilities could be available. Since the answer is already obvious, they're just seeing what they can get away with as far as living a lifestyle and belief system that requires a certain amount of hypocrisy when giving up the goods.

There should be morals and rules, or limits to it. I studied spacetime, geometry, and relativity growing up, as far as math goes. Obviously later on you get to harder courses, as not every kid studies calculus when they're a child. I'm not saying I didn't.

But that means I think that's what it is. What I mean by that, is that people just look at you, then determine whether you observed an event or not, and then they see what possibilities are there and where it could go.

That applies to biological organisms of all sorts, not just humans. Chimps are supposed to be "evolving" faster, or being more capable of living without human intervention, although humans still cause species to go extinct all around. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be conservation efforts.

In fact one reason why the rain forest has been burning down by order of the president there, Bolsonaro, is because being a shaman is a dangerous occupation because other shamans, the bad ones known as brujas or sorcerers, try to kill other shamans, or curanderos. Plus, stealing is too easy.

Pablo Amaringo's Ayahuasca Visions doesn't go into it, since it just explains his paintings, which is done by Luis Luna. It also implies advice, such as just explaining stuff quickly or offering tidbits, as if to appease an audience, usually westerners, and something especially beneficial toward gaining the appreciation of the ~40 year old "cougar" crowd. Culturally, it makes sense to do that. But economically you can see it's only due to capitalism.

The same rules could apply to bacteria, as barely cognisant organisms. All things compete for resources. Some fungi feed on dead material, such as dead trees. They don't always kill them. But other, certain species are beneficial to environments through complementary relationships that help other organisms in their niches there.


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Icon]
    #26382524 - 12/15/19 01:41 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Truth is extraordinarily important and useful as a local ordinance. Speaking as someone who works in a creative field and in the arts more broadly, there is utility in deliberately exploring sandboxes on the edge of truth, or even realms that aren’t connected to consensus reality, parlance or what most of us recognize as epistemology. This is not quite postmodernist because epistemology and truth are home base, a place to return and land after such flights of speculative imagination, and undeniably important. We can all craft our own unique meanings and worldviews until we crash head first into reality.

This “living on the edge” or “thinking dangerously” is not for everyone and likely just a trait of possessing high trait openness to experience. It is expansive though. I generally don’t share this with anyone anymore because they assume I’m just fucking nuts. It can be fun fucking with people though and seeing how far they’re willing to go and when/at what point they foreclose on an image of you as no longer credible. It seems distinct from insanity, though. Creative people certainly bend sanity, push envelopes. There is an element of obsessive fixation that is far beyond the norm, and most individuals of normal predisposition may have difficulty distinguishing an artist or visionary from someone lost in the endless sea of psychosis. That sea, the unconscious with no control valve.

There is consensus reality. There is objective reality; basically that which is there independent of whether or not my eyes are looking at it. Consensus reality is an approximation of those aspects and qualities of objective reality that are useful to our survival as organisms; but this is combined with projections originating from our own biological reality and the nature of our own consciousness.

There is no need to get hung up on these things. A part of exploration is moving beyond them, but coming back wiser and with stories to share. There is stuff to gain, information to glean from exploring anything outside of the ordinary, or even useful fictions and metaphorical rather than literal truths


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OfflineIndicabuds420
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Icon]
    #26382527 - 12/15/19 01:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Ditto exactly what's been said. Terrence McKenna is no instruction manual. I did 2 breakthroughs tonight and both in one big hit. I see people talking about this third hit.

Its said by a lot that you have to do it in 3 hits or you've fucked up, so to speak. I'm not dissing McKenna, it's each to their own. I just think people overexagerate and think they have to do it just how he did to do it properly and see exactly what he mentioned he PERSONALLY saw.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: CountHTML] * 1
    #26382534 - 12/15/19 01:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:
Truth is extraordinarily important and useful as a local ordinance. Speaking as someone who works in a creative field and in the arts more broadly, there is utility in deliberately exploring sandboxes on the edge of truth, or even realms that aren’t connected to consensus reality, parlance or what most of us recognize as epistemology. This is not quite postmodernist because epistemology and truth are home base, a place to return and land after such flights of speculative imagination, and undeniably important. We can all craft our own unique meanings and worldviews until we crash head first into reality.

This “living on the edge” or “thinking dangerously” is not for everyone and likely just a trait of possessing high trait openness to experience. It is expansive though. I generally don’t share this with anyone anymore because they assume I’m just fucking nuts. It can be fun fucking with people though and seeing how far they’re willing to go and when/at what point they foreclose on an image of you as no longer credible. It seems distinct from insanity, though. Creative people certainly bend sanity, push envelopes. There is an element of obsessive fixation that is far beyond the norm, and most individuals of normal predisposition may have difficulty distinguishing an artist or visionary from someone lost in the endless sea of psychosis. That sea, the unconscious with no control valve.

There is consensus reality. There is objective reality; basically that which is there independent of whether or not my eyes are looking at it. Consensus reality is an approximation of those aspects and qualities of objective reality that are useful to our survival as organisms; but this is combined with projections originating from our own biological reality and the nature of our own consciousness.

There is no need to get hung up on these things. A part of exploration is moving beyond them, but coming back wiser and with stories to share. There is stuff to gain, information to glean from exploring anything outside of the ordinary, or even useful fictions and metaphorical rather than literal truths




"Objective" reality is that which perpeatuates without you, I agree.

However, minus ALL conscious participants, the concept of "objective", which relies on consensus, is completely removed.

It then becomes an irrational statement. There can be no "objective" if nobody is around to set a standard for anything in the first place. Hell, the word "objective" doesn't exist because nobody is around to articulate it. Language and thought aren't even a thing from which this conversation could spring in the first place.

Take away all conscious participants and there are no sensory organs to perceive anything at all.

You could theorize all day but it's an impossible position to prove. Just assuming it IS there (minus all observers, not just one or a couple) creates a HUGE schism in one's epistemology.

Not claiming you're personally claiming ANY of that, HTML my man. I just see how quickly others go on huge rants while having a skewed/wonky epistemology!

That's what I get out of people just "saying stuff"; usually a wonky epistemology or metaphysic that doesn't line up with an ethic or politic someone's claiming. They think they're baking a cake but they've actually combined ingredients for sawdust lol.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Icon]
    #26382550 - 12/15/19 02:31 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icon said:


Ultimately our imaginations are limited by our life's experiences. We likely can't imagine the next hit single without already being an adept musician with tons of musical memories to draw from. Or an artist with knowledge of aesthetics, etc. Listening to other people's music, watching movies, playing video games, reading trip reports, etc. stimulate the imagination; but may weaken our ability to be creative, like a muscle that doesn't get used. Psychedelics are very useful tools for stimulating creativity IMO.




Im not so sure, Icon. There are many proponents these days of The Stoned Ape Theory. If you don’t know about this, it’s the hypothesis that human race moved out of the trees onto the grasslands, when the weather changed, they were forced to eat new diets. Psychedelic mushrooms were assumed to be part of this new diet. And then depending on the amount of mushrooms eaten, three levels of changes happened:
  • At low doses, mushrooms increase your visual acuity. So these people were better at hunting game.
  • At medium doses, you became more sexually active. So breeding increased.
  • At high doses, you had the spiritual and or mystical experience. And this introduced creativity into people’s thinking.

So, effectively, eating psychedlic mushrooms gave those tribes an evolutionary competitive edge.

Overall, it is hypothesised that these humans eating psychedelic mushrooms were responsible for our species brain doubling in size over the course of (don’t know - quite a lot!) so many years.

Think about it, where does creativity come from. Where do those ideas for creating something new, like the wheel, come from? They don’t just pop into your head. It is speculated that psychedelics introduce this creative aspect,and there are even theories that all religion originally stemmed from tribes eating psychedlic plants.

I’m no expert, but I tend to favour the stoned ape theory.

Take care,
DJ Ed.


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“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineBlabble40
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Indicabuds420] * 2
    #26382560 - 12/15/19 02:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indicabuds420 said:
Ditto exactly what's been said. Terrence McKenna is no instruction manual. I did 2 breakthroughs tonight and both in one big hit. I see people talking about this third hit.

Its said by a lot that you have to do it in 3 hits or you've fucked up, so to speak. I'm not dissing McKenna, it's each to their own. I just think people overexagerate and think they have to do it just how he did to do it properly and see exactly what he mentioned he PERSONALLY saw.



Yeah, I comprehend it. Terence McKenna has too many people copying him, thinking they're unique. Then they think they can threaten with the books he read, instead of the books he wrote. But it's like buying mushrooms.

Eventually, you have to grow your own.


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OfflineIcon
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26383176 - 12/15/19 11:31 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
Quote:

Icon said:


Ultimately our imaginations are limited by our life's experiences. We likely can't imagine the next hit single without already being an adept musician with tons of musical memories to draw from. Or an artist with knowledge of aesthetics, etc. Listening to other people's music, watching movies, playing video games, reading trip reports, etc. stimulate the imagination; but may weaken our ability to be creative, like a muscle that doesn't get used. Psychedelics are very useful tools for stimulating creativity IMO.




Im not so sure, Icon. There are many proponents these days of The Stoned Ape Theory. If you don’t know about this, it’s the hypothesis that human race moved out of the trees onto the grasslands, when the weather changed, they were forced to eat new diets. Psychedelic mushrooms were assumed to be part of this new diet. And then depending on the amount of mushrooms eaten, three levels of changes happened:
  • At low doses, mushrooms increase your visual acuity. So these people were better at hunting game.
  • At medium doses, you became more sexually active. So breeding increased.
  • At high doses, you had the spiritual and or mystical experience. And this introduced creativity into people’s thinking.

So, effectively, eating psychedlic mushrooms gave those tribes an evolutionary competitive edge.

Overall, it is hypothesised that these humans eating psychedelic mushrooms were responsible for our species brain doubling in size over the course of (don’t know - quite a lot!) so many years.

Think about it, where does creativity come from. Where do those ideas for creating something new, like the wheel, come from? They don’t just pop into your head. It is speculated that psychedelics introduce this creative aspect,and there are even theories that all religion originally stemmed from tribes eating psychedlic plants.

I’m no expert, but I tend to favour the stoned ape theory.

Take care,
DJ Ed.



Yea, psychedelics are the wildcard. But in general, sober humans, especially sober ancient humans, behaved like animals with simple reward-learning and repetitive survival behaviors. Even with modern day biological and cultural complexity, most of us seem relatively un-creative.

That's why it's so neat to speculate how the wheel and such came to be. I agree that psychedelics probably played an early role. A lot of technology is just new solutions to problems or opportunities that are created by previous technology. The wheel for example I think is theorized to result from man's knowledge of agriculture, animal husbandry, stone working, stone moving. They probably were rolling stones together for structures to house themselves and domesticated animals, since farming crops allowed them to live in one place. Then probably used animals to move the stones, and figured if they chisel it just right they can use that labor to plow their fields and boom, you started a civilization.

They probably weren't contacted by aliens through a DMT trip though and given the schematics or had their hands held by a god. Likely, psychedelic's introspection effect allowed them to think outside the parameters just enough to tweak habitual behaviors into something new and better.


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OfflineBlabble40
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Icon]
    #26383287 - 12/15/19 12:29 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icon said:
I'm also confused what OP is getting at. But it reminds me of this guy with an inflated ego who often came off as fake. He'd often talk with a lot of exaggeration to impress people with his PoV. Like a chameleon, he'd change energy around different people to cater to what would impress them. Once you see it enough you start to wonder whether he has a genuine personality. The way he'd describe trips was so extra. Every experience was like an alien abduction into Egypt with tons of new-age references to hype it up. I think he was probably having minimal trips and just describing them in the most bizarre way he could to try to fit in.

Another phenomena I see a lot with DMT trips is people reading too much about other people's experiences and expecting theirs to be a certain way. They go in expecting entities, machine elves, self-dribbling basketballs, and things that Terrence and others have described. There's so much potential for people to see something truly unique and bring back a novel description of it, but it's like people's expectations limit their potential for creativity. I think going into DMT completely unprepared is the best way, and truly allowing yourself to experience something unique instead of trying to check all the boxes that other people have mentioned.

Ultimately our imaginations are limited by our life's experiences. We likely can't imagine the next hit single without already being an adept musician with tons of musical memories to draw from. Or an artist with knowledge of aesthetics, etc. Listening to other people's music, watching movies, playing video games, reading trip reports, etc. stimulate the imagination; but may weaken our ability to be creative, like a muscle that doesn't get used. Psychedelics are very useful tools for stimulating creativity IMO.




Those are all just jewelled objects, with some possible extra reference to LSD and mushrooms, to be cheeky. There's some expectation that your life has to be perfect, and everyone is facetious, pretending to know everything already. It's pretentious, which some people like, but has traditionally been seen as negative.

Females just try to meet athletes, basketball, football, soccer, or even baseball players, to hook up with and be set for life with their comfortable salary, so people just try to turn everything into a coincidence.

These people don't do drugs, and try to pretend they're better for utilizing synchronistic aspects, thinking they're special, but it's hypocrisy, because they "don't need" this or that, yet, deride others for choosing not to be required to use certain stimuli to succeed.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Blabble40]
    #26383332 - 12/15/19 01:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Drugs can close doors of perception as much as open doors.  The drugs themselves aren't much, but it does happen that greater powers that do not require drugs can be involved.

Humans are learning and developing and we are not at all advanced.  We are in a dark age of enlightenment.  We've developed more tools that systems of understanding.  That is why there are a lot of problems and laws to restrict certain tools.

Some tools are just too powerful to be used safely without divine intervention.  There's a certain belief that we never encounter anything beyond our limits.  The real problem with that is our limits are well beyond or below our desire and desire for peaceful sanity.

People end up worshiping tools because they are accessible powers.  Yet not at all the highest power, nor even a way to shed our incapable humanity.

Transformation isn't as easy as taking a drug or using tools.  It takes a growth of a new brain, some-sort of divinely inspired outlook or things get misused.

A real issue is that doctors tend to be atheist.  It's difficult to point out to people how personality has flaws.  That it is so difficult to adjust to something more than holding on with ego.  So drugs are tools that could be utilized, mankind is just so cruel with tools.

The US Army interrogated people with LSD.  Obviously people received a lot more grace from the mysterious substance using recreational.  As well as many suffered from not respecting the powerfully unpredictable trip.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26383391 - 12/15/19 02:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

As far as I can tell my epistemology is a radical skepticism of everything coupled with a sort of playfulness with ideas. I used to care a lot about consistency in my worldview but I kind of got bored with it. I explore wonky ideas with little attachment to the exploration or ideas themselves then edit later. Maybe I’ve fallen into a bit of a nihilistic trap because I’ve kind of come under the unconscious assumption that any project I may have to understand the nature of reality is beyond the capacity of my human limitations. Therefore, fuck it, let the ideas out to play. Probably not a good thing and a sign that I’ve been under too much stress lately. Cynicism. When I descend into these exploratory stages I always figure I’ll clean up my epistemology later but one can certainly get lost in the weeds.

Maybe I’ve drifted closer to postmodernism than I realized.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: CountHTML] * 1
    #26383446 - 12/15/19 02:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I have been very very much that way.  There is a power in pessimism.  People who are pessimist are more successful.

Thoughts are only so good, they go nowhere, could go anywhere.  I fery mich prefer thoughts to be a playground.  It's interestijg tomsee what changes and what never does in thoughts.  They have power at times, other times none or at least not known.

Emotions are thoughts, seeing or hearing things are thoughts.  It is all brain active.  Exploring what is below thoughts is more promising of a skill.

Thoughts lack foresight.  So many times we utter a hope, or some fear and reality might be that way and largely it's just always more.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineIndicabuds420
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26383547 - 12/15/19 03:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The way I see it is expanding our consciousness years ago and has happened over time has been both a bad and a good thing. What we've created throughout time has also been destructive. Guess it's just evolution doing it's thing though.

Life is bittersweet no matter what. It's like it has to be to exist. All about balance basically.

Imo Pessimists tend to do better because they don't fall into traps as easily or tend to be as naive.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Indicabuds420] * 1
    #26383590 - 12/15/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Expanding horizons is still horizons.  We still have to make choices as to path.  Refreshment comes all too many ways, yet so terribly unsatisfying to what we know of our purpose.

Realizing purpose is the point of reincarnation.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineCujllickduo
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Indicabuds420]
    #26383593 - 12/15/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

really wanto be a part of the community again able to get the grasp of conversation and fire point blank questions.


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OfflineBlabble40
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Re: "Just" saying stuff [Re: Indicabuds420] * 1
    #26383618 - 12/15/19 03:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's either all about entertainment, or not. It's clear what happened, in that stories are fiction, and non-fiction is material you learn and memorize. The "assisting people" mentality is a cultural tool that promotes thriving among a group.

For some DMT trips I mainly described the the easier parts to remember, such as machine elves or UFO and aliens or a fairy, from the perspective of giants.

There's the other psychedelic hallucinations that it took to get there, but it isn't as memorable and goes faster along.


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Edited by Blabble40 (12/20/19 01:35 PM)


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