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OfflineTweeq
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Registered: 06/07/18
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26382625 - 12/15/19 04:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was brought up that way. And there's nothing wrong with me. The past is the past. It's why NL is rich. Or are you prepared to distance yourself from that too? Lemme guess..


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Tweeq]
    #26382627 - 12/15/19 04:15 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You were brought up under a racist tradition that you now blindly want to continue perpetuating because you grew up with it :shrug:

No one here is arguing that colonialism wasnt ungodly profitable. Kind of concerning for you to be leaning on that lol.... Makes me think you dont exactly see this as a 'chimney-ash' tradition.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Asante]
    #26382635 - 12/15/19 04:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
As predictably non-sensical as Asante's explanation for loving fireworks is, just out of curiousity I would like to hear your tales of people 'fleeing the country' because of fireworks.



A friend of mine (who happens to be a dog owner, although that's just part of the story) has 'fled' to the isles for years now at new year's eve mostly because of the fireworks. And he certainly isn't the only one. While the majority of people don't bother, there's a significant and seemingly growing number of people who seek out quiter spots these days to get away from the (in their view) madness.

Quote:

Asante said:
We used to accept fireworks, we no longer tolerate it.



Like I said, the situation concerning fireworks has changed if you compare it to a decade or two ago. There's a lot more of it and it's much heavier as well, these days. It's not a matter of not tolerating at all, but some people arguing that there needs to be a limit to it.

Quote:

Gedoogbeleid is on its way out.



Doesn't look like it. We're struggling with the inherent inconsistency of having an informal policy that allows small-scale distribution but does not manage production and up-stream supply chain issues. There currently does not seem to be strong or significant support for a policy that would make all of it illegal. All I see is that attempts to make the upstream supply chain more manageable and transparent prove to be too challenging to work out, with municipalities being willing to go for an entirely legal production system while the national government attempts to put quite strict boundaries to such experiments. That's very much different than putting a stop to the 'gedoogbeleid'; it's in fact a movement (albeit a slow and painful one) in the opposite direction.

Quote:

We seek more and more the side of oppression, restriction.

Climate is becoming more hostile towards foreigners too.



Is that objectively true across the board? Discrimination in various forms didn't use to be a substantial subject of debate in our society, which should not be interpreted as that there was widescale acceptance. There wasn't. The acceptance for non-acceptance has become increasingly scrutinized, forcing both sides of the debate to voice their views. This also means that the more hostile right-wingers need to voice their views, which they previously did not speak of much publicly, but instead just acted on them (i.e. being as racist or discriminating as they pleased). Don't mistake an increasingly open debate for a decrease in acceptance. The fact that the debate is still necessary implies that the situation is by no means solved, but arguing that we're heading into the wrong direction would require some more solid argumentation than just a few subjective cries.


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OfflineTweeq
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26382636 - 12/15/19 04:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You judge and draw conclusions very swiftly. Calling my parents and in some way my entire country racist is lazy respectless judgemental and incorrect.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26382646 - 12/15/19 04:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
No, Pete was black because he was meant to be a Moor. That whole 'chimney-ash' workaround didn't come until far later, after people started saying 'this is definitely racist'




Why a Moor in particular tho?
Elves as little helpers of the gods kind of "makes sense" as helpers for a benevolent blessing bringer in more modern form
but what is the cultural significance of Moorish people in a Santa myth -- is it 'just' due to the efficacy of slaves?

it is especially confusing to me, as despite Asante's mention of the elves being an adaptation because black Pete was too racist
the stuff that did show up in my digging suggests elves showed up first with a mass of elvish helpers showing up around the same time

https://www.livescience.com/42051-history-of-elves.html

Quote:

Much as the modern Thanksgiving menu dates back to the 1800s, so too do modern U.S. Christmas traditions. Elves became linked with Santa Claus in the 1823 poem "A Visit from St. Nicholas," better known today as "The Night Before Christmas." That poem refers to Santa Claus as a "jolly old elf."

With the elf-Christmas link established, other writers began to get creative with the idea. In 1857, Harper's Weekly published a poem called "The Wonders of Santa Claus," which tells how Santa "keeps a great many elves at work/ All working with all their might/ To make a million of pretty things/ Cakes, sugar-plums, and toys/ To fill the stockings, hung up you know/ By the little girls and boys."




Quote:

In 1850, the Amsterdam-based primary school teacher Jan Schenkman published the book Sint Nikolaas en zijn Knecht ("Saint Nicholas and his Servant" in English). It's widely considered the first time a servant character was included in a printed version of the Saint Nicholas narrative. The servant is depicted as a page who appears as a dark-skinned person wearing clothes associated with Moors. The book also established another mythos that would become standard: the intocht or "entry" ceremony of Saint Nicholas and his servant (then still nameless) involving a steamboat. Schenkman has the two characters arrive from Spain with no reference made to Nicholas' historical homeland of Myra (Lycia, which was located in what is now modern-day Turkey). In the 1850 version of Schenkman's book, the servant is depicted in simple white clothing with red hems. Beginning with the second edition in 1858, the page is illustrated in a much more colorful page costume.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

paging through other countries lead me to finding things like hobgoblins, gnomes, or other regional elf-adjacent supernatural creatures
rather than foreign humans
https://www.whychristmas.com/cultures/norway.shtml


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26382661 - 12/15/19 05:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Why a Moor in particular tho?




'Moor' was the generic term applied to basically anyone non-white and not from Asian descent. Possibly it is rooted in the Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula, and hence, anyone of 'other color' being labeled a 'Moor'. You can still see depictions of 'Moors' (in fact sometimes more resembling people from mid-African descent) on some older buildings, particularly the 'yawners' on some old (17-18th century) pharmacies, whose depictions were likely based on North-African muslims, but in some cases were depicted with more distinctly mid-African traits. This Moor might have been an association between medicine and Eurasian or North-African wisdom - likely again referring back to the Moorish occupation of Iberia and the more advanced knowledge of the Moors compared to the Europeans they conquered. Why the 'Moor' ended up as a helper to Sinterklaas and if that was due to associations with the (at the emergence of the phenomenon still recent or even actual) practice of slavery can only be guessed at. It's a logical conclusion, but not one that can be proven. A more allegorical meaning might just as well have been the indirect source of this choice. It's pretty much impossible to determine how we got where we are today, but it's clearly a fact that at least some people take offense in this combination of roles and characters. In a way, it says more about our society today than it does about motivations of the past.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: koraks]
    #26382665 - 12/15/19 05:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Why a Moor in particular tho?




'Moor' was the generic term applied to basically anyone non-white and not from Asian descent. Possibly it is rooted in the Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula, and hence, anyone of 'other color' being labeled a 'Moor'. You can still see depictions of 'Moors' (in fact sometimes more resembling people from mid-African descent) on some older buildings, particularly the 'yawners' on some old (17-18th century) pharmacies, whose depictions were likely based on North-African muslims, but in some cases were depicted with more distinctly mid-African traits. This Moor might have been an association between medicine and Eurasian or North-African wisdom - likely again referring back to the Moorish occupation of Iberia and the more advanced knowledge of the Moors compared to the Europeans they conquered. Why the 'Moor' ended up as a helper to Sinterklaas and if that was due to associations with the (at the emergence of the phenomenon still recent or even actual) practice of slavery can only be guessed at. It's a logical conclusion, but not one that can be proven. A more allegorical meaning might just as well have been the indirect source of this choice. It's pretty much impossible to determine how we got where we are today, but it's clearly a fact that at least some people take offense in this combination of roles and characters. In a way, it says more about our society today than it does about motivations of the past.




interesting, thanks for the insight
was poking the Black Pete wiki more, and its best 'guess' was that it was due to black skin being portrayed as similiar to demons
Quote:

In medieval iconography, Saint Nicholas is sometimes presented as taming a chained demon, who may or may not be black. However, no hint of a companion, demon, servant, or any other human or human-like fixed companion to the Saint is found in visual and textual sources from the Netherlands from the 16th until the 19th century.[10] According to a long-standing theory first proposed by Karl Meisen,[11] Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in Germanic Europe were originally presented as one or more enslaved demons forced to assist their captor. These chained and fire-scorched demons may have been redeveloped as black-skinned humans during the early 19th-century in the Netherlands in the likeness of Moors who work as servants for Saint Nicholas.




still makes the human approach intriguing and somewhat unique tho
as this would suggest the helper figure was chronologically a supernatural creature first and a human assistant later


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Invisiblecannabinated
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26382721 - 12/15/19 06:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

idk for a nation of slave traders it aint a good look :shrug:


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: cannabinated]
    #26382723 - 12/15/19 06:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

no offense but a brief look into it says it originated during slave trade times, probably to normalize slave trading


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Offlinetomnl
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: cannabinated] * 1
    #26382730 - 12/15/19 06:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
Been away so long I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey disconnect the phone
I'm back in the USSA
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSA


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: tomnl] * 1
    #26382737 - 12/15/19 06:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

totally

people are always so uptight about finding out they have institutionalized racism :rolleyes:


Edited by cannabinated (12/15/19 06:23 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: cannabinated] * 2
    #26383194 - 12/15/19 11:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Nobody watches so I might just post this here.



--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: cannabinated]
    #26383241 - 12/15/19 12:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cannabinated said:
no offense but a brief look into it says it originated during slave trade times, probably to normalize slave trading



The emergence of black Pete around 1848 coincides with the period in which The Netherlands abolished slavery and slave trade, which occurred in phases. It was a period when there was the exact opposite of normalization of slave trade going on, with the practice becoming more and more subject of criticism and objection starting in the late 1700s.


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: koraks]
    #26383251 - 12/15/19 12:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

yeah why do you think lawn jockeys exist

to hide something ugly


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Offlinetomnl
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: cannabinated]
    #26383292 - 12/15/19 12:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Black Pete is a superhero who rewards good kids and punishes bad kids.

Greets Hank


--------------------
Been away so long I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey disconnect the phone
I'm back in the USSA
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSA


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: tomnl]
    #26383303 - 12/15/19 12:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tomnl said:
Black Pete is a superhero who rewards good kids and punishes bad kids.

Greets Hank




The world has enough superheros
we need another good old fashioned villian





Quote:

A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage. Behind this terror, a dozen more stomp through the snow of the streets of Lienz, Austria, among a din of cowbell jangles. The creatures dash through the streets, chasing giggling children and adults alike, poking them with sticks and scaring some with the realization that they were naughty this year.

Lienz' annual Krampus Parade, also known as Perchtenlauf or Klaubaufe, resurrects a centuries-old tradition: Young men in town dress up as the mythical creature and parade through the streets in an ancient pagan ritual meant to disperse winter's ghosts. They march dressed in fur suits and carved wooden masks and carrying cowbells. The tradition—also known as the Krampuslauf, or Krampus Run—is having a resurgence throughout Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Hungary and the Czech Republic, and has gained recognition in the United States.

The creature has become so popular in recent times that he has a comic book series, parties of his own and even a new movie. After all, says Jeremy Seghers, organizer of a Krampusnacht festival being held for the first time in Orlando, Florida, why watch out when Santa Claus comes to town? "Because Krampus is coming to get you."

Krampus himself historically comes around the night of December 5, tagging along with St. Nicholas. He visits houses all night with his saintly pal. While St. Nick is on hand to put candy in the shoes of good kids and birch twigs in the shoes of the bad, Krampus' particular specialty is punishing naughty children. Legend has it that throughout the Christmas season, misbehaved kids are beaten with birch branches or can disappear, stuffed into Krampus' sack and hauled off to his lair to be tortured or eaten.

"The Krampus is the yin to St. Nick's yang," Seghers tells Smithsonian.com. "You have the saint, you have the devil. It taps into a subconscious macabre desire that a lot of people have that is the opposite of the saccharine Christmas a lot of us grew up with."

In fact, Krampus' roots have nothing to do with Christmas. Instead, they date back to pre-Germanic paganism in the region. His name originates with the German krampen, which means "claw," and tradition has it that he is the son of the Norse god of the underworld, Hel. During the 12th century, the Catholic Church attempted to banish Krampus celebrations because of his resemblance to the devil. More eradication attempts followed in 1934 at the hands of Austria's conservative Christian Social Party. But none of it held, and Krampus emerged as a much-feared and beloved holiday force.

For some, the annual festival of child-hunting Krampus is fun—but concerns that refugees in the Alpine towns that celebrate Krampus could find the tradition frightful has prompted some towns to consider taming the horror. This year, Krampus' scheduled arrival in the Alpine towns that celebrate him coincides with an influx of refugees from Syria and Afghanistan. Though the festival is well-loved, it gave rise to concerns that the new neighbors might be scared of the tradition and its nightmare-fueling costumes. Rather than cancelling the parade, town officials decided to educate the newcomers. The Telegraph's Rozina Sabur writes that refugee children in Lienz were invited to a presentation where they learned about the props, costumes and customs of Krampus.

Seghers likes the idea of introducing Krampus to refugees in Austria. "I think it's wonderful that they want to get the refugees used to this sort of thing," he says. "You can’t force people to adopt cultural traditions of which they have no basis or point of reference."

Perhaps you'll be the next to catch the Krampus spirit this holiday. After all, the horrible haunt could very well be watching you.



https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/











:headbanger:


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26384098 - 12/15/19 08:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Christmas in Europe is so much more interesting than the heavily prepackaged version in North America



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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26384133 - 12/15/19 08:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Move..

To....

Fucking......

Germany........


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Patlal]
    #26384155 - 12/15/19 09:06 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Move..

To....

Fucking......

Germany........




Love Canada too much to leave over one holiday
especially since our other winter festivals are awesome













but the whole Santa+Jesus+put on a smile or you are Scrooge/Grinch(based on financial bracket)
sucks bruh


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: Holland is starting to become a Cuntry. [Re: Tantrika] * 2
    #26384375 - 12/16/19 01:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

>"Legend has it that throughout the Christmas season, misbehaved kids are beaten with birch branches or can disappear, stuffed into Krampus' sack and hauled off to his lair to be tortured or eaten".

I don't recall hearing of Krampus when I was a child, I grew up in S. London rather than Holland, but I do recall a recurring nightmare where Santa Claws, looking very much more like a Krampus, would sit on a compost heap - a heap that exited IRL in a dark corner formed by two walls where the groundsman gathered up fallen twig and branches from the trees in the very much larger garden behind our back wall - made up of childrens bones, with a large bulging sack beside him from which he would haul out a "bad child" (I guess) onto his lap and tear pieces from to gnaw upon.


>"Krampus' roots have nothing to do with Christmas"

Neither does Christmas. It should be a celebration of scientific methodology (how else did the ancients discover when the winter and summer soltices occurred, clue, it aint from no bible) over superstition, which the Christians usurped for their own ends, and now, ironically, they bleat on about how 'their tradition' has been taken over my the merchants.

Poor old Dickens must turn in his grave seeing how his character 'Scrooge' is now used to browbeat the working poor into handing over their hard won money to the very merchant class he was railing against.:nonono:


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


Edited by deucedbi9 (12/16/19 01:39 AM)


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