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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes, terms, or idioms.
#26379342 - 12/13/19 02:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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This seemed like a good enough place for this sort of thing.
I absolutely love writing down and researching various quotes that I hear on a day to day basis. So I would like to put them here along with what I learn about them and discuss them. Or at least have a place to collect them along with my thoughts on them.
I also like to pull them out later in various conversations so having at least a rudimentary understanding of them before using them is always helpful. I appreciate any feedback, especially if I have one misunderstood, or if there is anything more to the story that I didn’t include. The last thing I want to do is drop a quote and try to sound smart only to have it completely misunderstood. Ask me how I know that.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
Edited by vault123 (12/13/19 04:06 PM)
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379350 - 12/13/19 02:18 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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So I was just thinking of this one today:
“It’ll never fly”
I hear this one so often. I even use it myself all of the time, but I know absolutely nothing about it.
Here’s the closest thing I could find: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/It%27ll+never+fly
There seem to be a lot of different variations and I have absolutely no interest checking all of them right now. I’m sure there’s a much older more commonly used version of it, but this is the one I used most often.
Here’s a bunch of different contexts, but I can’t seem to find the origins for it.
http://www.idioms4you.com/complete-idioms/will-never-fly.html
This ones a personal favorite:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/in%20dire%20straits
“In dire straights”
Oh I absolutely love it. I’ve read the origins on this one before. I’ll have to see if I can find them again.
From this description I can find:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/sesquiotic.com/2016/07/29/etymology-in-dire-straits/amp/
It seems to just sort of emerge on its own without any direct tie to some memorable historical event or speech. It seems like is just popped up in the 1900s after the Roosevelt speech, but as far as wherever he got it at it feels like it sort of lacks history. I guess a lot of times when you try to trace something back it just sort of becomes increasingly more difficult to pinpoint. I’m a bit disappointed in this one.
Here’s a good one:
https://www.gingersoftware.com/content/phrases/come-hell-or-high-water/#.XfQR9yWIaEc
“Come he’ll or high water”
Not certain about this source, but they seem to use the same definition I’ve heard it used as. I absolutely love expressions of determination to overcome any obstacle at any cost. It feels like it really has a depth of meaning.
Edited by vault123 (12/13/19 04:06 PM)
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379383 - 12/13/19 02:37 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here’s a bunch of different contexts, but I can’t seem to find the origins for it.
http://www.idioms4you.com/complete-idioms/will-never-fly.html
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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Oldnameforgotten
Traveler

Registered: 10/19/19
Posts: 956
Loc: Pilbara Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379390 - 12/13/19 02:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps"
I find this HILARIOUS. So modern terminology is used by older generations, people who have already done well financially, or by conservatives.... and it means "Do hard work and you will be able to be successful".
But it comes from an older terminology that means literally: "Something that is impossible". It is basically like saying grab your shoe laces and lift yourself off the ground which is obviously not possible.
I find the insanity of how that terminology is used..... is just ....wow. Its like they are looking hypocrisy dead in the face and denying its existence and they do it for so long and for so many generations that they truly forget the hypocrisy altogether.
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379391 - 12/13/19 02:40 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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This ones a personal favorite:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/in%20dire%20straits
“In dire straights”
Oh I absolutely love it. I’ve read the origins on this one before. I’ll have to see if I can find them again.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26379392 - 12/13/19 02:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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That is quite an insight. I have heard that one come under criticism lately. I would love to read a description of the origins if you have one.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26379395 - 12/13/19 02:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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So if I understand this correctly. What you’re saying is that asking someone to do something that is impossible, is hypocritical. Do I have that correct?
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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Oldnameforgotten
Traveler

Registered: 10/19/19
Posts: 956
Loc: Pilbara Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379397 - 12/13/19 02:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
vault123 said: That is quite an insight. I have heard that one come under criticism lately. I would love to read a description of the origins if you have one.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps-nonsense_n_5b1ed024e4b0bbb7a0e037d4?ri18n=true
Explains it pretty well. Fascinating little article.
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Oldnameforgotten
Traveler

Registered: 10/19/19
Posts: 956
Loc: Pilbara Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379404 - 12/13/19 02:48 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
vault123 said: So if I understand this correctly. What you’re saying is that asking someone to do something that is impossible, is hypocritical. Do I have that correct?
I have a hard time putting into words how I feel about this. If you have any ideas definitely let me know.
But... its like.... they are telling poor people to try harder while ignoring that there are clear obstacles in the way of becoming successful and they use a terminology for "trying harder" that historically means "something that is impossible".
Full disclosure:
Of course trying harder will give you a better result... so the expression is half-true in that sense.
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26379414 - 12/13/19 02:52 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I’m curious what their source is for this concept:
“The concept is simple: To pull yourself up by your bootstraps means to succeed or elevate yourself without any outside help.”
They could have linked to the source for this concept. Because it is stupid. Nobody can do it all on their own everybody needs outside help. There are certainly various levels of independence and accessibility that vary drastically from person to person, but nobody does it all on their own that’s impossible. None of us would make it if that was what you had to do.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
#26379418 - 12/13/19 02:53 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah I completely agree. I see the contradiction. I am curious how it came to be that way. I’m still reading the article. I just stopped to take some notes.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379431 - 12/13/19 02:59 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok so I see. It looks like this was when the change occurred:
The Oxford English Dictionary cites James Joyce’s Ulysses (1922) as its earliest example of the phrase, and it appears to illustrate the contemporary meaning: “There were ... others who had forced their way to the top from the lowest rung by the aid of their bootstraps.”
I just wanted to say here that this feels like a literary trend. How a term that has a much different historical context from it’s current use. This feels to me like a shifting of the Overton window.
How one generation might have an absurd original context, at least until someone needs a more exaggerated or pronounced description to try and provide an even greater sense of urgency, and as that continues it dampens the original meaning of it until it becomes common parlance. I can think of a few examples of how that is happening today.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
Edited by vault123 (12/13/19 03:05 PM)
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379462 - 12/13/19 03:13 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh I do love the huffington post. They’re always so uplifting.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379494 - 12/13/19 03:26 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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From this description I can find:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/sesquiotic.com/2016/07/29/etymology-in-dire-straits/amp/
It seems to just sort of emerge on its own without any direct tie to some memorable historical event or speech. It seems like is just popped up in the 1900s after the Roosevelt speech, but as far as wherever he got it at it feels like it sort of lacks history. I guess a lot of times when you try to trace something back it just sort of becomes increasingly more difficult to pinpoint. I’m a bit disappointed in this one.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379518 - 12/13/19 03:36 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here’s a good one:
https://www.gingersoftware.com/content/phrases/come-hell-or-high-water/#.XfQR9yWIaEc
“Come he’ll or high water”
Not certain about this source, but they seem to use the same definition I’ve heard it used as. I absolutely love expressions of determination to overcome any obstacle at any cost. It feels like it really has a depth of meaning.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 5 days, 14 hours
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379524 - 12/13/19 03:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Edit your post so that these can all be in the original instead of spamming.
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: Near Dylan]
#26379528 - 12/13/19 03:41 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I apologize. Thank you for letting me know.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 5 days, 14 hours
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: vault123]
#26379534 - 12/13/19 03:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I always liked "it's come to the triarii". Not someting to be used nowadays I guess but in the late Roman Republic/empire the triarii were the experienced, reserve line that was only deployed when the battle was being lost and a last resort was needed. This phrase was used to describe situations like that.
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vault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
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Re: Philosophical concept and historical references for various quotes that I like. [Re: Near Dylan]
#26379544 - 12/13/19 03:48 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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That is a very good one. I faintly recall hearing it, but I've never used it before. At least until now that is.
Alright, is that better? I got them all in there.
-------------------- "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Judge Aaron Satie
Edited by vault123 (12/13/19 04:08 PM)
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