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Offlinedelcat
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Lions Mane & RH
    #26379179 - 12/13/19 12:37 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Hi Guys,

I'm just doing my third Lions Mane grow.  My first two gave me probably 3 golf ball sized fruits per bag (or one large the size of a golf ball)

I'm using 1 quart spawn per bag and probably 2 litres or so of Roger Rabbits wood lovers substrate.  I think I should be aiming for better yields, right?

So far I've been just fruiting them on a shelf.  The fruits seem pretty dry as they are developing, I think I have low RH.

This time around I was thinking to fruit the bags inside an old 55L monotub box to keep RH high.

What do you guys think of this approach? Any tips?

Here's a pic of my last grow about where I harvested it...



Thanks!


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Offlinedelcat
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26379200 - 12/13/19 12:47 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

One other question... In Roger Rabbits videos, he mentions that the water put into the substrate is just enough for colonisation; then goes on to say that you'll take the sub out of the bag and dunk it in water before fruiting.

However, he doesn't mention anything further on this in the rest of the videos.  Does anyone have any info on this step? I haven't been doing it, perhaps thats why my fruits are small and dry?


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Offlinesonoramo
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26379225 - 12/13/19 01:00 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

delcat said:
One other question... In Roger Rabbits videos, he mentions that the water put into the substrate is just enough for colonisation; then goes on to say that you'll take the sub out of the bag and dunk it in water before fruiting.




I can't help you with experience. Last week I bought a sawdust "log" pre-inocculated with lion's mane. The log is very tightly compressed with alternating layers of spawn and sawdust. It looks like their assembly was to put a poly bag in a form, then dump in the alternating layers and compress somewhat before tying off the "open" end. It was not terribly moist when I received it.

Their directions were: Cut two X-slits on the long side of the log, and put it in the poly tent they supplied, with about 6 1/2-inch FAE holes (no filters on the holes). Then, mist it 2x/day and wait.

Dunking the log would put way more water in it than what is there. Also, it probably would not soak in terribly well because the log is so compressed. If you you have a big tub to use as a humidity chamber, that might be more convenient than the poly-bag "tent" I got with the kit. I'd use a tub myself, but all of mine are busy with other things.  :grin:

That's all I can tell you,... the log is not yet fully colonized so I haven't seen a single fruit.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: sonoramo]
    #26379280 - 12/13/19 01:29 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You don't measure your results by the size of the fruits. You measure your results by bio efficiency. So if you put 1 lb of dry sub in the bag and get 1 lb of mushrooms you have 100% bio efficiency. Notice it is measured by the dry materials you put in with no water added.


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Offlinedelcat
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26379319 - 12/13/19 01:59 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the comments guys.  Re: Bio Efficiency, I don't know exactly the dry weight of all the stuff I put in; But I'd expect more than I got from the bag I posted a pic of (note no second flush)

Am I expecting too much?

Hopefully putting them in a more humid environment will give me better results...


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26379473 - 12/13/19 03:18 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know what you should expect from Lion's mane as far as bio efficiency goes. But you need to do a little research and find out what bio efficiency you should be getting. Then keep track of the weight of the materials you are putting in the bags. That is the only way to find out if you are doing well or if something needs to be adjusted. Please post what you find because I will be starting LM soon.

Are you misting the fruits? Because you don't want the fruits to get wet or they will turn brown and stop growing. Your fruits look a little brown, but it may be from not having enough humidity.


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Offlinedelcat
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26379483 - 12/13/19 03:23 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't mist these at all as i heard they don't like it.

I just cut slots and left them to it.

I'll let you know if i notice a dramatic different from increasing the RH.  Too late for me to measure bio efficiency now I'm afraid!


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26379506 - 12/13/19 03:31 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Where did you get your spawn?

I have this culture...

https://www.mycelia.be/en/strain-list/m-9514-hericium-erinaceus

I have not done anything with the culture yet.

I found out a long time ago that you want to start off with good genetics to get good results.


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #26379643 - 12/13/19 04:22 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't grown a tone of lions mane yet but recently I had my humidity drop to the 60's and a block of lions mane I had fruiting got some brown on the fruits. Not like yours though. Do you know what your humidity is?


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: filyep]
    #26382464 - 12/15/19 12:00 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

If you look at the link shroomsisay posted to the culture, you can see the parameters required to grow lions mane well. Pay attention to the humidity, co2 levels and the yield.
85% to 95% RH, 500ppm-1000ppm co2 (which is an average rooms co2. So alot of fresh air) and 150 grams of mature mushrooms for every 1 kilograms of substrate with that particular strain.
You need a lot more humidity as your mushroom is brown from being too dry.
Placing it in a monotub wont work well unless you can provide that same high humidity and maintain a high air exchange without really dropping the humidity for extended periods, or you'll run into the same problem filyep mentioned.
Pf tek is different from bulk substrates, you need to treat your substrate as a bulk substrates, as that's what it is. With pf tek you add the minimum amount of water possible for colonization and than dunk after to rehydrate the mycelium. With bulk substrates you add a certain amount of water (which is generally 60%-65% saturation of the substrate) that allows for full colonization and at least 1 to 2 flushes.
You can get an estimate of how much water would be used in 1 flush from a given substrate based on the mushrooms potential yield per wet substrate weight and the weight of your wet substrate. You can further estimate the amount of water used in the substrate to produce mushrooms based on the assumption that most mushrooms are 90% water.
Ex. Your substrate weighs 500 grams wet
You know that potential yield is 150 grams per kilogram of substrate
1kg is 1000 grams
Half of 1000 grams is 500 grams and half of 150 grams is 75 grams
So 75 grams per 500 grams of wet substrate
60% of 500 grams is 300 grams
90% of 300 grams is 270 grams
So left over water is 30 grams, pretty dry!
This is of course assuming ideal conditions, B.E. and accurate substrate saturation.
Once the water is used up you can dunk them again, weighed down under water so osmotic pressure hydrates the mycelium and reintroduce it to fruiting conditions. This of course comes with it's own particular complications.


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Offlinemariapilz
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26382670 - 12/15/19 05:28 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I love to read your comments DigitalRhizahe. That has substance.


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: mariapilz]
    #26383216 - 12/15/19 11:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you mariapilz, I appreciate the kind words.


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Offlinedelcat
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26404493 - 12/28/19 11:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the info Digitalrhizae.  I understand your comments on water.

The reason I asked about dunking is because in Roger Rabbits video about preparing wood lover substrate for use in bags, he mentions while he is doing it that the water in the initial mix is just for colonisation - and he will dunk them later.  I'm using his exact method (which is not BRF) so thats why I asked.

I however, have not dunked.  But the sub looks plenty wet to me!

I'm beginning to wonder if my hardwood "wood chips" are causing me issues.  We can't get hold of fuel pellets where I live, so I have been using these:

https://www.woodfuel.coop/product/ruf-aspen/

I'm not sure if mine are the aspen type or not, but they look exactly similar.  They certainly say hardwood on the label.  I prepare them by placing a block in a big pot, and boil them for about an hour in a lot of water.  After this, the block has turned completely to loose "shredded" wood (As opposed to singular chips)

I use this as the "Wood chip" and regular hardwood sawdust with wheat bran.

Looking at my bags now, I can clearly see they are desparate to fruit, but they are barely colonised.  I have placed them into an old monotub with most of the holes covered with micropore tape except for about 25% of the upper ones.  I have made some slits in areas where I can see fruits already, or particularly white areas that look like something is forming.

What do you guys think?  My instincts are telling me there is a bit too much water in the sub, and maybe they don't like the hardwood chips.  Pictures below...











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Offlinedelcat
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26404498 - 12/28/19 11:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Also, as you can probably see, both bags have quite a lot of fruits on the top - which isnt Ideal, I guess I want them to fruit out the sides, but because the air is at the top, thats what they are trying to do.

One thing I just thought is, should I be massaging these during colonisation to distribute and assist full colonisation?

These were spawned from fully colonised rye grain to the sterilised bags on the 15th December. Pics taken on the 28th.

Recipe / Method for sub:

4 litres sawdust
2 litres chips (made from the block of hardwood mentioned below)
half litre wheat bran
1 cup gypsum
1.5 litres water

Boil 1 block of hardwood 1 hour.
Mix sawdust and wheat bran and gypsum well together dry
add water
mix together well.

Place into bags - 1 part chips to 2 parts sawdust mix

massage and mix well in the bag.
Sterilise
Add approx 1 qt rye grain spawn.
Seal the top, massage and mix well.
Leave to colonise - and we get to the above pictures.


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26406370 - 12/29/19 01:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I must have forgot or overlooked that in RR’s videos, but you’re right he does mention dunking in the sawdust block preparation, I thought this was only for PF Tek. My information of substrate moisture is based mainly on Paul Stamets supplemented sawdust blocks recipe. And I’ve always just had a general ball park for the amount of water to add (which would be 60%-65% water to dry weight of substrate, as mentioned in GGMM) and then brought it up to field capacity with the hand squeezing method. With water it is more important to actually have less then more, because when you have more or too much it slows down colonization and encourages bacteria and mold growth.

Your wood source likely isn't a problem as along as you get the water content right. Your blocks look fine, and actually are more likely to be over colonized then under colonized. Lions mane can be deceptive because full colonization doesn’t necessarily mean an entirely white surface like with oysters for example. More experienced growers will actually fruit based more on time (generally +-30 days) than visual appearance. They are also difficult because they will tend to fruit if allowed to before full colonization.

Yep they are fruiting on the top because that is where the most fresh air is going to be. If you want side fruiting it’s recommended at the time of fruit initiation to fold the bags down as tightly as possible, removing as much air as possible and then cut the slits in the side of the bags for fruiting sites.

You don't need to be massaging them at all really, except for the general recommendation for mixing of the substrate at 20% colonization to speed up the rest of the colonization. But this isn’t even necessary, it’ll just take more time to colonize fully. I’ve done 1 liter sawdust jars filled right to the top, so shaking wasn’t an option and it just took a bit longer to colonize.

Honesty, in my opinion, the only thing you need to correct is the RH and FAE of your fruiting chamber. I can’t see anything else that you may have done wrong. Even your first picture of the brown fruit you posted looks good, the formation is nice, it just needs more humidity.


Edited by DigitalRhizae (12/29/19 01:40 PM)


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
    #26419009 - 01/06/20 09:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

delcat said:
Looking at my bags now, I can clearly see they are desparate to fruit, but they are barely colonised.




I think this is your problem - to me it looks like your bags ARE fruiting, just inside the bag.  See the last pic you put there - the air space in the bag that's filling with lion's mane fruit? 

LM mycelium is very thin and whispy, and rarely looks like it is fully colonized.  It will start fruiting, invitro if it has to, almost immediately after full colonization, which is exactly what it appears to have done in your pics.

With lions mane you want to make sure there is no air space inside the bag there, otherwise it will do like it did and fruit inside the bag.  Next time leave no air space, and it will fruit beautifully out of the filter patch.  Then you can just rip the fruits off there. :thumbup:


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: Forrester]
    #26419035 - 01/06/20 10:04 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:


With lions mane you want to make sure there is no air space inside the bag there, otherwise it will do like it did and fruit inside the bag.  Next time leave no air space, and it will fruit beautifully out of the filter patch.  Then you can just rip the fruits off there. :thumbup:




Say what? Fill the substrate bags maxed? Wouldn't that encourage contams to pass through the filter patch being right on the substrate? I would assume then if I am reading you correct then just do a small x on the opposite end of the bag when its time to fruit as it would start fruiting out the filter patch as you said? Even for the other filter patches the unicorn square ones? But how would that work for being able to PC the bags without problems? And that would turn a 5-6 lb bag into a 10 lb bag? How would this all look that you are describing? Thanks


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
    #26419095 - 01/06/20 10:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

seagu said:
Say what? Fill the substrate bags maxed? Wouldn't that encourage contams to pass through the filter patch being right on the substrate? I would assume then if I am reading you correct then just do a small x on the opposite end of the bag when its time to fruit as it would start fruiting out the filter patch as you said? Even for the other filter patches the unicorn square ones? But how would that work for being able to PC the bags without problems? And that would turn a 5-6 lb bag into a 10 lb bag? How would this all look that you are describing? Thanks





Sorry I wasn't that clear :smile:

Actually I've never used those particular bags, fruiting thru the filter on them may not be ideal, I just have a feeling that's what they'll do if you fill them full. 

All I can do is better explain how I used to do it with the regular filter patch bags, and maybe you can adapt a way to try something similar with your bags.  Anyway, here's basically what I used to do:

Basic Lipa tek, HWFP into filter patch bags.  inoculate with grain spawn and re-close bags with no air space inside.  At this point you can either cut your x's now (before colonization) if it's fuel pellets without supplementation, as I did, or if you're using supplementation or a substrate other than fuel pellets, you can wait to cut your x's until it's colonized, which shouldn't take more than a week.  You just want to make sure you have x's or somewhere for it to fruit through, and no airspace inside.

Lion's mane likes to start fruiting as soon as (or almost before, really) it's fully colonized.  So if you've got a nice humid climate INSIDE the bag for it to fruit, it's going to prefer that over your probably less humid environment outside the bag.  You have to force it.  If it's got nowhere INSIDE the bag to fruit, the fruit will come out and happily grow outside the bag, through the x's you've cut, or the filter patch if you've forgotten to give it another way out.

Hope that helps, and good luck! :thumbup:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: Forrester]
    #26419105 - 01/06/20 11:03 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a couple pics of mine done that way, they don't help show much better how it's done but nonetheless:





(and yes, they are overdue for harvest, you wanna get em earlier if you're eating them - I was growing for medicine)


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: Forrester]
    #26419149 - 01/06/20 11:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

OK. Hrmm. So Lion's Mane doesn't need a lot of FAE for colonization, just fruiting? as provided by the X's and even limiting the air exchange by folding the bags over the filter patch provides enough gas exchange for LM? May I assume this works well for Spawn as well to prevent invitro fruiting of the spawn?


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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