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Forrester
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
#26420134 - 01/06/20 10:07 PM (4 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
seagu said: OK. Hrmm. So Lion's Mane doesn't need a lot of FAE for colonization, just fruiting? as provided by the X's and even limiting the air exchange by folding the bags over the filter patch provides enough gas exchange for LM? May I assume this works well for Spawn as well to prevent invitro fruiting of the spawn?
That's correct, lion's mane only needs a slight amount of gas exchange for colonization, with the bags you're using there will be plenty.
I would have to say no, this wouldn't really prevent spawn from starting to form primordia and fruit (only because nothing really prevents it from doing that whether it's spawn or substrate). It doesn't STOP your substrate from fruiting, per se, it just gives it no place for the fruit to go so it has to go outside.
With lion's mane spawn, you really wanna spawn it like THE DAY it reaches full colonization, which can be difficult to tell since its so thin/wispy and usually looks like cobweb mold A friend of mine used to have his colonization time down to a science, making sure he incubated at the same temp every time he would just go 7 days and spawn it, whether it looked ready or not.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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seagu

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OK. I was just surprised at the seeming limiting the gas exchange even further by providing no air pocket and by folding over the bags over the filter patch.
And Yea I have 3 bags of spawn that have fruited invitro because I just didn't do any substrate bags yet. About to. My last bag that did that I just crumbled it anyways, fruit and all, and spawned it all to substrate bags, which then colonized just fine and fruited just fine. What can you say about this? Obviously it worked for me the last time quite well. Are there limits on this working well?
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Forrester
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
#26420503 - 01/07/20 07:32 AM (4 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
seagu said: What can you say about this? Obviously it worked for me the last time quite well. Are there limits on this working well?
It usually works just fine, but I don't believe it's ideal. Something about taking it right when it's trying to fruit and forcing it back to colonizing mode, I don't think makes it happy. But I've never run experiments to test
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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delcat
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Thanks guys, all really good advice, a lot of things I didn't realise.
I thought I was supposed to be spawning colonised rye to sterilised bags, then leaving an air pocket at the top with the bag sealed to allow the supplemented sub to colonise. RR videos actually instruct you to do this, but I can totally see how this causes fruiting inside the bag.
These LM inside an old monotub with most of the holes taped up (2 of them 1/2 covered, the rest taped) are doing much better. I don't know what the RH is but Ive misted the walls of the tub maybe four or five times in two weeks. The walls do not typically have any moisture on them unless i spray them.
Next time I think I'll try and spawn to bags, mix, then seal with no air pocket like you say. Then just cut X's at the right spots when I see them developing, rather than waiting for some visible indication of colonisation as i have been doing up till now.


EDIT: Added a pic of LM grown simply on a shelf in my bedroom for comparison purposes. Note the genetics are not the same, but even still, the fruit looks dense, squat, and underdeveloped to me.
Edited by delcat (01/09/20 07:55 AM)
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delcat
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
#26424092 - 01/09/20 07:51 AM (4 years, 20 days ago) |
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Just to add, I never got the wispy, spongey characteristics of the fruits before. They would develop, but were quite dense and hard.
Putting the whole thing inside a box in an effort to try and get it a bit more RH has led to the fruits being a much lighter texture. They seem to go through a development stage where they are short, squat, and look like cauliflower. After this, they develop long wispy parts that give a softer more spongy texture. The softer parts never came when I was fruiting outside of a box, so the fruits were small and dense. Now I have the dense parts in the centre, but with a lighter, spongier layer of fungi growing on top - which I like!
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DigitalRhizae
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: delcat]
#26424730 - 01/09/20 01:48 PM (4 years, 20 days ago) |
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It's suggested to leave clean air in the bag to allow for colonization so the mycelium has enough fresh air and doesn't stall due to lack of gas exchange. I believe RR suggests this because he is not using filter patch bags in those videos and once it's heat sealed or tied off, no gas exchange can occur. Filter patch bags allow for that gas exchange. But I am not 100% on this and maybe Forrester can clarify this.
Your fruits will get much denser if you can maintain the same humidity but also provide a lot of fresh air exchange. A sign of poor fresh air exchange in lions mane is the non-dense, holey mushrooms. Much like how the indication of poor air exchange in oyster is small caps and large stems.
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Forrester
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Quote:
DigitalRhizae said: It's suggested to leave clean air in the bag to allow for colonization so the mycelium has enough fresh air and doesn't stall due to lack of gas exchange. I believe RR suggests this because he is not using filter patch bags in those videos and once it's heat sealed or tied off, no gas exchange can occur. Filter patch bags allow for that gas exchange. But I am not 100% on this and maybe Forrester can clarify this.
Your fruits will get much denser if you can maintain the same humidity but also provide a lot of fresh air exchange. A sign of poor fresh air exchange in lions mane is the non-dense, holey mushrooms. Much like how the indication of poor air exchange in oyster is small caps and large stems.
I've never watched RR's videos, but what you said makes sense. I've never had any problems with colonization when the only gas exchange was the filter patch, even if it was loosely rolled in or something. Long as you got SOME gas exchange.
As far as the density, I think the tighter look in the bottom pic is what folks usually go for (the color difference is because it was drier). The toothy look in the pics above is probably just because it had less air, although any of the fruits will start to get toothy if you let them grow long enough. But hey, I'd say grow 'em to whatever texture YOU like!
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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seagu

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Do you guys find that LM likes/needs even more FAE than Oysters? I'm still trying to dial my fruiting chamber in. And even had to move my LM around to make sure it had enough humidity so it would get more "soaked" to get rid of the tan coloring. As well as up the humidity level. Which had led to more of a puddle problem. Although, when I cleaned my humidifier discs it started pumping out A LOT of water all of a sudden... oops... so now I am having to readjust my adjustments again because of that.. heh. I think I might start cleaning the discs every other week to keep them running top notch. They do get scale buildup over time and slow down the output. Which the noticeable slowdown is what got me to clean the actual discs of the water scale. But I was seeing fruits that looked like all 3 pictures although not really as bad as the top 2 pics but the general shapes. But I wouldn't all get the pretty tooth look. That usually people like to see of those long hanging dreads. But my oysters LOVE the FAE, so maybe its just the strain I am using?
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Forrester
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
#26426181 - 01/10/20 08:45 AM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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No I wouldn't say they need near as much FAE as oysters. You could be right maybe the strain you're using needs air a bit more air. It is H. erinaceous right?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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seagu

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Yes it is H. erinaceous. I am not sure how much was caused by them being tan for so long as I moved things around in my fruiting chamber and adjusted things. Someone had originally told me to make sure they didn't get direct fog that it would kill it off. He had no clue. Once I put them directly in the most fog they spruced up quite nice. Maybe I am having internal fruiting chamber fan issues? Been adjusting that here and there, but as they say don't let the fan blow directly on the fruits it is a real pain.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Forrester
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
#26426235 - 01/10/20 09:33 AM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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it does take a little tinkering to figure out what they like, I too remember something about not getting the humidity on the fruits directly, from pretty reliable sources. But then I find them in the forest drenched in rain, so
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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DigitalRhizae
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I had problems with my humidity setup too and I could never get it under control. So I did have issue with them getting too wet or too dry and browning or growing odd. I've designed/built a new humidifier that seems to work way better but haven't tested it in an actual grow yet. I've only grown oysters outdoors so I don't know how they would perform in the setup I had. But I can tell you that if my air exchange in a 4 tier greenhouse wasn't at least 1 full exchange of the volume of the chamber every 10 minutes, the lions mane definitely suffered. They do well with 500-1000ppm of co2 in the air, which is pretty close to the average ppm of co2 in a typical occupied room. Maybe it's a strain thing as Forrester mentioned or you might have co2 hot spots, just a guess.
Apparently standing water on pins is what causes aborts, but once they've matured enough they can take water directly. But it's recommended to not have water standing on them for too long also, as that can cause bacterial blotch on the mushrooms.
If the mushrooms turn brown they have likely died. They will grow new mushrooms off of fresh mycelium that wasn't damaged, but it's unlikely for the mushroom that developed to recover if they've got too dry.
You really should be using distilled, de-mineralized or Reverse osmosis water if you are using an ultrasonic type of humidifier. This isn't only to keep the disc clean and prolong their life, it's also because it's a health hazard as the calcium in the water also makes it into the mist and when it dries it creates nanoparticle calcium dust that you can breath in and could potentially cause respiratory damage. I just recently found this out because my sister would run these home units a lot and her entire living space was covered with white dust. She later figured out it was calcium dust from using tap water in the humidifier. There's a bunch of studies online that show this occurs.
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seagu

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Distilled, etc. water isn't really an option that would sky rocket the cost of running the fogger. And even using a mister, which I want to go to next won't really get rid of the calcium either. I just have to clean everything often because of hard water. No matter which way I go.
Ahh that makes sense on why I thought the guy was off as the LM had already formed before I moved it closer to the fogger input. But generally my shelves are dry. Although, I shall be finding out more as I have 3 new batches of LM with different sub mixes going. So I can find the answers to the questions I had in the other thread about substrate.
And what maybe the issue is, is I am running a 4 tier shelf indoors instead of outside, just yet. So its pulling air from the house and not outside. My out of the house grow tent wouldn't have that problem at all. But I am not running them in there. Yet.
And I know at least one of my shelves does have a CO2 hot spot because my oysters complained a little on that shelf. Which was the shelf I started my LM on originally. I haven't tried my last shelf yet. But that is going to change very shortly as I am going to be filling the whole thing up in short order. So now that I am explaining it.. that maybe the issue.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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DigitalRhizae
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
#26426965 - 01/10/20 05:35 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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Are you venting the exhaust outdoors? If not it would contribute to the overall co2 in the room and could cause problems. But if its venting outside the room than it shouldn't be much of a problem. I wouldn't think a small area like a 4 tier greenhouse would need a circulation fan, I would think the exhaust cycles and natural convection would be enough, but I'm not sure.
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seagu

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It is venting outside. Yea I saw gr0wer didn't use a circulation fan in his. And so was wondering about that. But also wondering if he was just experiencing slightly longer stipes and just dealt with it and considered it within an acceptable length or what. And honestly I didn't let them sit on the one shelf too long and it wasn't the first flush. I didn't have enough to run a full house until now, as I was still getting all the materials. Didn't want to make it full until I did some smaller runs anyways. And now, for a bit, its going to have all this Lion's Mane. Yum. So I won't know until I fill it up and grow it out. And that reminds me about my idea to basically convert each shelf into two shelves on top of each other so the mushrooms are growing directly over the holes in the shelves so they get better circulation through the whole thing. Still holding the same amount of bags but allowing for easy side fruiting and better circulation and FAE. Dunno yet. Got busy and distracted.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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seagu

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Quote:
DigitalRhizae said:
If the mushrooms turn brown they have likely died. They will grow new mushrooms off of fresh mycelium that wasn't damaged, but it's unlikely for the mushroom that developed to recover if they've got too dry.
So, does this means if where someone slits the bag, it browns a little it is considered damaged and nothing will grow from there? Should a new hole be made near there? Fully cut away all the tan and it will grow from there as there would be fresh mycelium left? Maybe cut a diagonal slit across it opening up fresh mycellium near there?
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
Edited by seagu (01/11/20 07:11 AM)
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DigitalRhizae
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Re: Lions Mane & RH [Re: seagu]
#26435579 - 01/15/20 07:58 PM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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I might be better able to explain this with a picture. This picture shows some developed mushrooms but you can see brown spots on them where they initially dried out in their early life. The mushroom grew from portions that weren't completely dried, or weren't so far gone that the fruiting body completely died and once humidity was reestablished they were reinvigorated.
Top right shows a jar with two mushrooms and dried dead pin. Parts of those two show sings of drying, but grew fine once the humidity was somewhat stable. Top left shows a similar situation and so does the bottom most right one.
If it's just surface damage and the mycelium underneath is not completely dead, then I would think it should have the ability to push through the brown dead surface and form new pins, but I can't say this with complete certainty.
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seagu

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So sounds like you think the browning on the sub is akin to aborts on other shrooms. Well, I can say that I pulled the brown off of the two slits that didn't grow before and 1 of them so far has new growth. But I had also slit side ways across the original slit that browned too before doing that. So that it made an X as before it was an |. So at the very least the browned area can be pulled off and cleaned and it will/can fruit.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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mariapilz


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my understanding... an abort is not the result of insufficient humidity. Aborts happens when too many primordia grow and the block no longer makes it ... of course no new mushroom grows from it.... maybe later ON it a new mushroom.
Quote:
DigitalRhizae said: I might be better able to explain this with a picture. This picture shows some developed mushrooms but you can see brown spots on them where they initially dried out in their early life. The mushroom grew from portions that weren't completely dried, or weren't so far gone that the fruiting body completely died and once humidity was reestablished they were reinvigorated.
Top right shows a jar with two mushrooms and dried dead pin. Parts of those two show sings of drying, but grew fine once the humidity was somewhat stable. Top left shows a similar situation and so does the bottom most right one.
If it's just surface damage and the mycelium underneath is not completely dead, then I would think it should have the ability to push through the brown dead surface and form new pins, but I can't say this with complete certainty.

well explained
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seagu

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Quote:
mariapilz said: my understanding... an abort is not the result of insufficient humidity. Aborts happens when too many primordia grow and the block no longer makes it ... of course no new mushroom grows from it.... maybe later ON it a new mushroom.
Quote:
DigitalRhizae said: I might be better able to explain this with a picture. This picture shows some developed mushrooms but you can see brown spots on them where they initially dried out in their early life. The mushroom grew from portions that weren't completely dried, or weren't so far gone that the fruiting body completely died and once humidity was reestablished they were reinvigorated.
Top right shows a jar with two mushrooms and dried dead pin. Parts of those two show sings of drying, but grew fine once the humidity was somewhat stable. Top left shows a similar situation and so does the bottom most right one.
If it's just surface damage and the mycelium underneath is not completely dead, then I would think it should have the ability to push through the brown dead surface and form new pins, but I can't say this with complete certainty.

well explained
I said "akin", which mean similar but not necessarily the same, and he says : Quote:
DigitalRhizae said:Top right shows a jar with two mushrooms and dried dead pin. Parts of those two show sings of drying, but grew fine once the humidity was somewhat stable. Top left shows a similar situation and so does the bottom most right one.
And how he is describing it as a whole from his entire text it sounds like he possibly thinks, similar(akin) to as aborts start and dry out/damage often times, that with LM mushroom specifically, they could recover instead of truly aborting. So, I used "akin" so I would have some leeway in the discussion if the words used were not perfect in all ways and if I was misunderstanding what he was trying to say. 
Also, This thread here discusses aborts and several TC's have weighed in and for the most part it just depends, no diaper needed. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23840394
Edited by seagu (01/18/20 07:19 AM)
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