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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality
#26378493 - 12/13/19 04:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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This thread was inspired by a conversation in another thread.
Alright; let's finally put away the rabbit and hat and reveal just how the logical magic trick of contradiction (often mislabeled, either deliberately or unknowingly, as “paradox”) is performed.
Humanity has for too long accepted that contradiction is a legitimately rational means of reconciling extremely complex or seemingly unresolvable concepts, or explaining observations (e.g. the wave-particle duality of light) that are not easily integrated into linguistic paradigms. In other words, humanity has consistently revealed itself to be, in unfortunately typical fashion, intellectually lazy on the whole. Or at least, too willing to accept intellectual insufficiency as the absolute apex of man’s mind.
The reason why it’s easier to “understand” contradiction as “truth” is simple: because there’s NOTHING to understand.
And I mean literally; as literal as the definition of the word literal literally means.
To declare that A is also B makes both A and B…well, nothing.
A is also Not A; and B is also Not B.
By this methodology we get a complete vacuum of meaning…a hole in one’s consciousness instead of a truth.
The assertion that the square is also the circle is to admit that you cannot actually say which is which, and this, ultimately, only means that you have thrown up your hands and surrendered reality to…well, who knows?
You can't say, because you’ve rejected the means by which anything is said at all.
And if you have surrendered your grip on reality by accepting even a tincture of contradiction as somehow commensurate with truth, then you have spoiled the entirety of understanding.
A pinch of leaven leavens the whole batch, so it is said, and this is true likewise of contradiction.
To claim even one contradiction as truth is to render the entirety of reality ITSELF a contradiction.
If you find these ideas too arcane and rigid, and too aggrandizing of human reason, then I humbly submit that this has nothing to do with the actual substance of said ideas and everything to do with the fact that you have become shamefully complacent in your thinking, and have compounded this error with ignorance.
That one who asserts that mutually exclusive concepts can be synthesized to form truth, or that truth is a measure of degrees, or that the key to understanding is realizing that humanity lacks sufficiency for fundamental understanding…yes, that the one who peddles this mystical, ethereal, esoteric, senseless, pseudo-spiritual bromide should suggest that I am the one whose ideas are much too far beyond the boundaries of human sensibility is exceedingly facile.
If you struggle to comprehend the axiom that there can be no such thing as a square circle, then might I suggest you glance in a mirror and reassess some priorities.
I also get the point. Unraveling contradictions that have been accepted as axiomatic of reality and truth for often hundreds of years or more can seem exceedingly tedious, complex, and just plain nonsensical.
However, I'm not the one who built the whole of civilizations out of bullshit.
We're all dealing with it. The real question then becomes, are you strong enough to wade through the maze of contradictory bullshit this world attempts to convince you is valid, or will you reinforce the systems's wishes and argue/defend against general reason and conceptual consistency?
How much of your worldview is predicated on "assuming" complex shit "just is because it is, bro IDK how it works, but someone does"?
Christ is said to have "died" on the "cross of contradiction". Not pushing religion at all, just an interesting little correlation.
I always liked McKenna's humble, open-minded description of "reality": "Just what the hell is REALLY going on".
An emergency in philosophical correction is needed.
However, you certainly don't blame the paramedic when the bandages get bloody while rectifying the situation.
Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/13/19 04:53 AM)
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Hartford
Lawful Good



Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 1,106
Loc: Tennessee
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26378523 - 12/13/19 05:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Mankind breeds lies. That's the way cultures are. If you have a family and raise children, you will inevitably be pressured to invent ways of reconciliation which will lead to paradoxes of logic because you're too weak to tell your wife that she and her littles are bat crazy. So we lie.
If you go out into the wilderness where no one cares if you speak pure truth, you may be able to escape the pandemonium, but you will be brought back again as a messenger with an inconvenient truth for society as a whole.
Society breeds lies. Those in power rise to enforce the lies and these froward agents will not attain the resurrection of the just.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26378548 - 12/13/19 06:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not sure if this helps but here goes: By definition contradictions & mystery are not explanations. And explanations are not experience. ** And experience is not contradictory. But expecting to be able to explain experience may lead to contradictions.
Contradictions and paradoxes are logical puzzles in their own right. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=paradoxes+examples&ia=web
In particular, it is often said. many mistake explanations for understanding, and mistake understanding, for deep experiencing of oneness.
In life we must often act without explanations, and deal with seeming contradictions, quickly. This is partly why self help books, mottos, & principles that often sound good, also don't work in practice.
** (Of course one can experience what its like to explain things, but explaining something is not the same as experiencing it)
It has been said that :"thinking about awareness is not awareness, but being aware of thinking is awareness.
Being aware of this, may perhaps free some folks from thinking that thinking will clarify matters, when often the opposite may be the case.
Edited by laughingdog (12/13/19 06:15 AM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: laughingdog]
#26379208 - 12/13/19 12:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Humans mostly don't operate on truth. They operate on what makes them feel good and/or what provides the desired utility. Cognitive dissonance as a consequence can be considered a reasonable trade off especially if one is able to ignore it, but even when they aren't. It's only when the pain of it is greater than the perceived benefit that a person will reject contradictions.
It will always be this way I suppose. For some the adoption of irrational beliefs is ironically an attempt to get rid of cognitive dissonance. It's a coping mechanism. Arguing with such people entails asking them to reveal a type of suffering they are avoiding... generally not worth doing, often done out of one's own concerns, and something they may do on their own good time or not at all. When is it reasonable to argue with a brick wall? Is the motivation truth or spreading truth, or something else? Be curious with the curious.
It's a bit different on a debate board. Enjoy participating, or not. I used to enjoy reply after reply, trying to get my point across in a way the opposition could understand, and I use the word enjoy loosely, mingled with frustration... yet it is the right word. These days I'm more likely to make my point and let it go, if I bother to participate to begin with.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Rahz]
#26379595 - 12/13/19 04:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Seems a very good post to me.
Responding to the world with emotion, desire, & aversion seem to be the default mode for humans, not reason. Or biologically Dopamine, Serotonin, & related hormones, & neurotransmitters, seem to usually determine our behavior, rather than the reasoning powers of the prefrontal cortex.
Your point about opening up leading to having to deal with repressed issues, and discomfort seems spot on.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Rahz] 1
#26384412 - 12/16/19 02:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Humans mostly don't operate on truth.
Is this a true statement?
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26384481 - 12/16/19 04:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: This thread was inspired by a conversation in another thread.
Alright; let's finally put away the rabbit and hat and reveal just how the logical magic trick of contradiction (often mislabeled, either deliberately or unknowingly, as “paradox”) is performed.
Humanity has for too long accepted that contradiction is a legitimately rational means of reconciling extremely complex or seemingly unresolvable concepts, or explaining observations (e.g. the wave-particle duality of light) that are not easily integrated into linguistic paradigms. In other words, humanity has consistently revealed itself to be, in unfortunately typical fashion, intellectually lazy on the whole. Or at least, too willing to accept intellectual insufficiency as the absolute apex of man’s mind.
I don't know if people accept contradiction as much as they recognise it, and attempt to solve it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26384599 - 12/16/19 07:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Humans mostly don't operate on truth.
Is this a true statement?
they usually can't handle the truth!
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_ 🧠 _
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: redgreenvines]
#26385028 - 12/16/19 12:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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truth
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26385032 - 12/16/19 12:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Humans mostly don't operate on truth.
Is this a true statement?
Mostly.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Rahz]
#26385070 - 12/16/19 12:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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No its a false statement just look at the great shape the planet is in the thousands of years of peace humans have enjoyed the lack of crime the respect women & children are treated with Oh yes we are the pinnacle of evolution second only to God, in our impeccable rationality we exhibit at every moment
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AZZI
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/19
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Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26392101 - 12/20/19 08:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: This thread was inspired by a conversation in another thread.
Alright; let's finally put away the rabbit and hat and reveal just how the logical magic trick of contradiction (often mislabeled, either deliberately or unknowingly, as “paradox”) is performed.
Humanity has for too long accepted that contradiction is a legitimately rational means of reconciling extremely complex or seemingly unresolvable concepts, or explaining observations (e.g. the wave-particle duality of light) that are not easily integrated into linguistic paradigms. In other words, humanity has consistently revealed itself to be, in unfortunately typical fashion, intellectually lazy on the whole. Or at least, too willing to accept intellectual insufficiency as the absolute apex of man’s mind.
The reason why it’s easier to “understand” contradiction as “truth” is simple: because there’s NOTHING to understand.
And I mean literally; as literal as the definition of the word literal literally means.
To declare that A is also B makes both A and B…well, nothing.
A is also Not A; and B is also Not B.
By this methodology we get a complete vacuum of meaning…a hole in one’s consciousness instead of a truth.
The assertion that the square is also the circle is to admit that you cannot actually say which is which, and this, ultimately, only means that you have thrown up your hands and surrendered reality to…well, who knows?
You can't say, because you’ve rejected the means by which anything is said at all.
And if you have surrendered your grip on reality by accepting even a tincture of contradiction as somehow commensurate with truth, then you have spoiled the entirety of understanding.
A pinch of leaven leavens the whole batch, so it is said, and this is true likewise of contradiction.
To claim even one contradiction as truth is to render the entirety of reality ITSELF a contradiction.
If you find these ideas too arcane and rigid, and too aggrandizing of human reason, then I humbly submit that this has nothing to do with the actual substance of said ideas and everything to do with the fact that you have become shamefully complacent in your thinking, and have compounded this error with ignorance.
That one who asserts that mutually exclusive concepts can be synthesized to form truth, or that truth is a measure of degrees, or that the key to understanding is realizing that humanity lacks sufficiency for fundamental understanding…yes, that the one who peddles this mystical, ethereal, esoteric, senseless, pseudo-spiritual bromide should suggest that I am the one whose ideas are much too far beyond the boundaries of human sensibility is exceedingly facile.
If you struggle to comprehend the axiom that there can be no such thing as a square circle, then might I suggest you glance in a mirror and reassess some priorities.
I also get the point. Unraveling contradictions that have been accepted as axiomatic of reality and truth for often hundreds of years or more can seem exceedingly tedious, complex, and just plain nonsensical.
However, I'm not the one who built the whole of civilizations out of bullshit.
We're all dealing with it. The real question then becomes, are you strong enough to wade through the maze of contradictory bullshit this world attempts to convince you is valid, or will you reinforce the systems's wishes and argue/defend against general reason and conceptual consistency?
How much of your worldview is predicated on "assuming" complex shit "just is because it is, bro IDK how it works, but someone does"?
Christ is said to have "died" on the "cross of contradiction". Not pushing religion at all, just an interesting little correlation.
I always liked McKenna's humble, open-minded description of "reality": "Just what the hell is REALLY going on".
An emergency in philosophical correction is needed.
However, you certainly don't blame the paramedic when the bandages get bloody while rectifying the situation.
Yes..
Didn't quite read all of it;
Nothing and everything have a correlation.
"Emptiness is form, and form is emptiness."
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kitten6
hiker

Registered: 05/13/19
Posts: 96
Loc: UK 0161
Last seen: 17 hours, 34 minutes
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26393492 - 12/21/19 04:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree,
How can we ever truly be free, when it is almost impossible to get a single good ounce of truth out of anything nowadyas.
Write your book, but spend twice the time discrediting your lines, if you don't have at least half the lines you thought you would in the end, then you should re evaluate whether your book is really worth writing.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26402550 - 12/27/19 06:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
Rahz said: Humans mostly don't operate on truth.
Is this a true statement?
https://phys.org/news/2019-12-facts-misremembered-personal-biases.html
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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r00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26402927 - 12/27/19 11:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: This thread was inspired by a conversation in another thread.
Alright; let's finally put away the rabbit and hat and reveal just how the logical magic trick of contradiction (often mislabeled, either deliberately or unknowingly, as “paradox”) is performed.
Humanity has for too long accepted that contradiction is a legitimately rational means of reconciling extremely complex or seemingly unresolvable concepts, or explaining observations (e.g. the wave-particle duality of light) that are not easily integrated into linguistic paradigms. In other words, humanity has consistently revealed itself to be, in unfortunately typical fashion, intellectually lazy on the whole. Or at least, too willing to accept intellectual insufficiency as the absolute apex of man’s mind.
The reason why it’s easier to “understand” contradiction as “truth” is simple: because there’s NOTHING to understand.
And I mean literally; as literal as the definition of the word literal literally means.
To declare that A is also B makes both A and B…well, nothing.
A is also Not A; and B is also Not B.
By this methodology we get a complete vacuum of meaning…a hole in one’s consciousness instead of a truth.
The assertion that the square is also the circle is to admit that you cannot actually say which is which, and this, ultimately, only means that you have thrown up your hands and surrendered reality to…well, who knows?
You can't say, because you’ve rejected the means by which anything is said at all.
And if you have surrendered your grip on reality by accepting even a tincture of contradiction as somehow commensurate with truth, then you have spoiled the entirety of understanding.
A pinch of leaven leavens the whole batch, so it is said, and this is true likewise of contradiction.
To claim even one contradiction as truth is to render the entirety of reality ITSELF a contradiction.
If you find these ideas too arcane and rigid, and too aggrandizing of human reason, then I humbly submit that this has nothing to do with the actual substance of said ideas and everything to do with the fact that you have become shamefully complacent in your thinking, and have compounded this error with ignorance.
That one who asserts that mutually exclusive concepts can be synthesized to form truth, or that truth is a measure of degrees, or that the key to understanding is realizing that humanity lacks sufficiency for fundamental understanding…yes, that the one who peddles this mystical, ethereal, esoteric, senseless, pseudo-spiritual bromide should suggest that I am the one whose ideas are much too far beyond the boundaries of human sensibility is exceedingly facile.
If you struggle to comprehend the axiom that there can be no such thing as a square circle, then might I suggest you glance in a mirror and reassess some priorities.
I also get the point. Unraveling contradictions that have been accepted as axiomatic of reality and truth for often hundreds of years or more can seem exceedingly tedious, complex, and just plain nonsensical.
However, I'm not the one who built the whole of civilizations out of bullshit.
We're all dealing with it. The real question then becomes, are you strong enough to wade through the maze of contradictory bullshit this world attempts to convince you is valid, or will you reinforce the systems's wishes and argue/defend against general reason and conceptual consistency?
How much of your worldview is predicated on "assuming" complex shit "just is because it is, bro IDK how it works, but someone does"?
Christ is said to have "died" on the "cross of contradiction". Not pushing religion at all, just an interesting little correlation.
I always liked McKenna's humble, open-minded description of "reality": "Just what the hell is REALLY going on".
An emergency in philosophical correction is needed.
However, you certainly don't blame the paramedic when the bandages get bloody while rectifying the situation.
Contradiction and Mystery are placeholders for inadequate explanations. Most people are not Scientists/discoverers/nomads. So, they quite often are found enjoying what those kinds of people bring got bear and into their reality around the camp fire known as society. They entertain themselves with it. They romanticize with the new thinking/language. But rarely do you find them pursuing the understanding behind the Contradiction/Mystery so as to instantiate a new truth. They may dabble with the thought or pursue it enough to reinforce their other world views but they never take the plunge fully for in that is a pain/suffering/danger they cannot justify.
In my current exploration, contradiction is everywhere... As is mystery. Since I treat them like placeholders or markers for me being out in the wilderness, I am able to ground myself and the experience/thoughts that come along with it. That being said, you do not want to play or venture in this area for too long... One most return and remind themselves of basic reality.. But for theory/investigation, you're really not out there far enough if you don't hit a number of contradictions/mystery. That's the frontier where few have traveled and new discoveries lie.
There, problem solved OP. EZ
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26406403 - 12/29/19 01:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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even if you reach the stars, you'll still find yourself in the same recursion loop.
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,773
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: akira_akuma] 1
#26406408 - 12/29/19 01:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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So what’s the point?
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,773
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Re: Contradiction & Mystery ARE NOT Valid Explanations of Reality [Re: WhoManBeing] 1
#26406424 - 12/29/19 02:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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This stuff is plain dumb.
To declare that A is also B makes both A and B…well, nothing.
Language is used to create understanding. Words create define specific detail.
Use you language wisely for understanding.
If was to look up ‘nothing’ definition what you get? Not A and B.
And if trying to be trivial, sure ok numb nuts, you win! Blew my mind wide open! Way to go.
Who the fuck made a dollar of this idea and who the fuck paid for that?
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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