|
Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 16 days
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26370127 - 12/09/19 02:12 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
|
Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
|
|
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
I am also interested in this. It seems Congress and the Democratic/Republican dynamic is all one big thing self perpetuating itself. So I have to assume that reform through voting and the Democratic/Republican dynamic is unlikely to bring the senate down. That would mean another mass party coming into reality that has a new agenda and system.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
|
|
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
It would require a new amendment to the Constitution, which requires 3/4 of the states for ratification. This would in practice be impossible, because all of the smaller states (those making up less than approximately 30% of the population together, and there are over 30 of them), would never ratify such an amendment. So it's never going to happen.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 21,263
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
|
The better bet would be to try and get the rest of the country to kick the west coast out.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: ballsalsa]
#26370972 - 12/09/19 01:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
That seems likelier, yes.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,523
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 21 minutes
|
|
Without the proper incentives, I would agree. If the pot was sweetened there may be a chance. What specifically could be offered, for the smaller states to give up federal power? Would it be possible to craft legislation giving them a line item veto-like power over things that influence thier state?
How about buying them out? Wonder what the price tag would be. I will say the pitting of large states vs smaller ones (without any incentive) creates the us vs them mentality...everyone would just dig in thier heels.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/09/19 03:03 PM)
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,333
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 59 minutes, 55 seconds
|
|
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
So less government is a left wing pipe dream now?
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
Lachlen
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/19
Posts: 72
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis]
#26371167 - 12/09/19 03:29 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mycosis said: You think that would have passed in a majority rules system?
Exactly.
|
chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum



Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
It would require a new amendment to the Constitution, which requires 3/4 of the states for ratification.
No it wouldn't. It would require a new constitution with a unicameral congress, which the US had under the Articles of Confederation and which didn't work out too well.
If you guys really want to know what the rationale behind the current US Constitution was then try reading The Federalist Papers.
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,333
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 59 minutes, 55 seconds
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos] 1
#26371200 - 12/09/19 03:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
Lachlen
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/19
Posts: 72
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26371206 - 12/09/19 03:45 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
If you want to reform than you are wasting ur time.
Just keep the borders open and things will change. Tax the billionaires and watch the elite fall. Eventually there can be a new government alltogether.
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,523
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 21 minutes
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26371260 - 12/09/19 04:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
One of the major reasons the Articles of Confederation failed was due to a lack of central power. It was also virtually impossible to amend needing all 13 states. (In this hypothetical) If the smaller states gave up senatorial power, would it degrade federal power?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/09/19 04:02 PM)
|
chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum



Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26371547 - 12/09/19 05:41 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
koods said: Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
The 2080s have yet to come. And no. We can't ignore the past several hundred years of the history of our civilization and we can't ignore the philosophy that came concurrently with, and as a result of, it. Not unless you're okay with spearheading an anti-intellectual movement that basically leaves the worst parts of our society free to just nonchalantly revise history while you cocoon yourself in self-adulating pabulum, I mean.
Incidentally, a lot of your opinions about politics that you take for granted and just shrug off as being "natural" were probably pretty heavily shaped by The Federalist Papers, notwithstanding the fact that Tea Party dipshits kept singing its praises. If they'd actually read it then they probably would have bitched about it being some sort of a left wing anti-freedom screed.
|
chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum



Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26371557 - 12/09/19 05:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Incidentally, what's the cut off for how recently opinions should have been formed before we're disallowed from taking them into consideration?
|
Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26371639 - 12/09/19 06:26 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
chibiabos said: Incidentally, what's the cut off for how recently opinions should have been formed before we're disallowed from taking them into consideration? 
78 years. About the average life span.
|
Zyiadem
Smokes Catnip



Registered: 10/07/17
Posts: 392
Loc: Intn'l Waters
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26373163 - 12/10/19 01:40 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
koods said: Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
The 2080s have yet to come. And no. We can't ignore the past several hundred years of the history of our civilization and we can't ignore the philosophy that came concurrently with, and as a result of, it. Not unless you're okay with spearheading an anti-intellectual movement that basically leaves the worst parts of our society free to just nonchalantly revise history while you cocoon yourself in self-adulating pabulum, I mean.
Incidentally, a lot of your opinions about politics that you take for granted and just shrug off as being "natural" were probably pretty heavily shaped by The Federalist Papers, notwithstanding the fact that Tea Party dipshits kept singing its praises. If they'd actually read it then they probably would have bitched about it being some sort of a left wing anti-freedom screed.
That needed to be said.
Literally all of the reasons stated by OP were thought of in the making of the checks and balances that allow America to remain as a single country. Despite the imbalance that you see from the way our government runs, the alternative is a dissolution of the nation. Just because you think the majority of people should decide, there is a lot of land and opinions between NY and CA. The people who provide all the food for those in the cities, if you think their opinions don't matter and disrespect what their religious views are, they will revolt/leave the union and not do business with you.
If CA and NY legalized abortion across the board you'd have a revolt from WY that's where all the fucking mormons are. Further than that if you broke the country down to legal opinions on matters large cities would be single leftist countries surrounded by larger less populous right leaning countries. Allowing wars to be waged between them due to a new boundaries and very clear definition of where opposing views are originating.
-------------------- I don't know shit. And the more I know, The more I realize it.
|
Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 5 days, 12 hours
|
|
Tyranny under the whim of the urban population is not ideal 'democracy'. I don't believe in majority rule and creating a system that inevitably marginalizes and pushes out entire demographics from being able to do anything real on a political scale. But we have one with the senate anyway, so 
Democracy and republicanism is inherently flawed, like every other shitty societal structure.
--------------------
|
chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum



Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
|
Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Zyiadem]
#26373214 - 12/10/19 02:04 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Abortion is already legal in CA and NY. I'm not sure what you think that Congress has to do with writing state laws. There are also precious few farmers who are willing to turn their communities into destitute shitboxes just to sick it to derm furgin liberals out in the cities. There are also models for how a unicameral legislature can work, but even where societies evolved around that sort of an institution it's very clearly not a guarantee against the sort of instutional deadlock and infighting that's been happening. There are also issues of geography that aren't exactly clear until they start causing massive problems. Governing a country the smaller than Texas that basically grew out of an urban nerve center over the course of the better part of a millenium (if not longer) is entirely different from trying to govern a large country that's basically a haphazard accretion of land with a national tradition that barely goes back two hundred years.
|
chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum



Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
|
|
Quote:
Near Dylan said: Tyranny under the whim of the urban population is not ideal 'democracy'.
Ideal democracy is restricted to male Athenian citizens who are chosen through a lottery. Which isn't to suggest that the Athenians weren't actually pretty horrible people. Fortunately the US is closer to a modern Persia.
|
Zyiadem
Smokes Catnip



Registered: 10/07/17
Posts: 392
Loc: Intn'l Waters
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
|
Quote:
Near Dylan said: Tyranny under the whim of the urban population is not ideal 'democracy'. I don't believe in majority rule and creating a system that inevitably marginalizes and pushes out entire demographics from being able to do anything real on a political scale. But we have one with the senate anyway, so 
Democracy and republicanism is inherently flawed, like every other shitty societal structure.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution. -John Adams
The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.
There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume. -George Washington
-------------------- I don't know shit. And the more I know, The more I realize it.
|
|