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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: living_failure]
    #26370965 - 12/09/19 01:39 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

living_failure said:
I have a high payed job (in my country). Almost 70% higher than the average salary. But i don't earn enough to pay for anything but a rent apartment.
Even worse than that, my mother and father haven't got their own apartment. That means that if the state doesn't give them enough retirement money (we are facing a pension crysis here) i will need to pay my rent and help them with their rents.

My uncle is a drunk with his own apartment. If she rented it she would have almost the same money each month by renting it that i get by working.
My cousin earns the minimum salary here, still, their fathers have a huge house in one of the best streets in the capital of the country. When his parents die he will have ownership over half a house wich is more money than i'll earn in my entire lifetime.



The situation is as bad as, in a few decades, those with a house will have a quality of life those without cannot even dream of. A total different social class just by the decision of their parents a few decades ago.

Under the current political movements, neither far left or far right parties have a solution. And the two parties on the middle actually seek to make it worse.

What is the situation if your country? do any party have a real and practical solution to this issue?




Similar in the United States as well, at least in major cities.  You can't buy places in NYC unless you have a million dollars (or enough to put down then expect to pay the bank back forever).

Prices are extremely inflated right now, I would just hold off until things stabilize.  It could take a few years.

For instance a 2 bedroom CONDO with a "backyard" the size of a small patio sells for 650k-800k in the OUTSKIRTS of NYC Queens.  People are banking their "investment" (IE their long time ownership of NYC property which they paid 1/3rd the current asking price just 20-30 years ago) and bailing from the city life.

So long as there is demand, the price will be high.  I look forward to buying far far away for NYC and living like a king with my savings.


--------------------
I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26371021 - 12/09/19 02:15 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

The Fed manipulates interest rates. If they didn’t care about them they wouldn’t do that.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123] * 1
    #26371040 - 12/09/19 02:28 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
The Fed manipulates interest rates. If they didn’t care about them they wouldn’t do that.



They manipulate interest rates in order to keep inflation under control.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26371094 - 12/09/19 02:59 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
It appears that household, nonfinancial business and financial sector credit growth rates are all down relative to pre-2008 levels.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IN10908.pdf



That shows credit is, in fact, growing.  Do you think debt should be growing at an even faster rate?




I was just showing that low interest rates no longer produces the growth in credit that happened before the 2008 crisis.

Central banks claim low interest rates are stimulative for the economy, but that's not true at this point. Low rates are great for certain assets prices and that's about it.


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26371242 - 12/09/19 03:56 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

Since you agreed with the definitions I used for these terms. How exactly did I confuse them? That was my original question. As far as I can tell I did not confuse them. The last time you tried to answer this you just gave me a run down on the subprime mortgage crisis.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26371282 - 12/09/19 04:12 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

I’m not saying you have to agree with the conclusions I drew from them, just that I used them correctly given the context.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26371418 - 12/09/19 04:57 PM (6 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

vault123 said:
I blame this on the central bankers and Keynesian economists inflating the prices of everything into oblivion.



You're confusing central bankers and Keynesian economists with private banks.

It was the private banks that 'inflated prices of everything into oblivion'.  It was also the private banks that created the 'bubble that eventually burst'.



Since you agreed with the definitions I used for these terms. How exactly did I confuse them?



I explained this in my very first reply, which I quoted again here.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26371624 - 12/09/19 06:18 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)

Just because you don’t agree with my conclusion about which entity caused what doesn’t mean I confused them. Central bankers like the Fed “inflate the prices into oblivion” through open market operations and money printing like I said. You don’t have to agree with it, but I know exactly who and what they’re doing that I’m referring to So no, I did not confuse them.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


Edited by vault123 (12/09/19 07:17 PM)


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26371681 - 12/09/19 06:46 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)

I never said they didn’t have good reasons for doing it. I just said if they “didn’t care” about them that they wouldn’t manipulate them. I said absolutely nothing about their motivations for doing so. I was referring specifically to your claim that they “didn’t care” about them.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26371688 - 12/09/19 06:49 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)

I am sure you know far more about economics than this economics professor does.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26371827 - 12/09/19 08:10 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)



--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26371921 - 12/09/19 09:28 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Just because you don’t agree with my conclusion about which entity caused what doesn’t mean I confused them. Central bankers like the Fed “inflate the prices into oblivion” through open market operations and money printing like I said. You don’t have to agree with it, but I know exactly who and what they’re doing that I’m referring to So no, I did not confuse them.



Can you provide evidence that money printing led to the housing bubble?  That's the first I've heard it.

I already explained how private banks made subprime loans to anyone who wanted one and then resold those loans to people who didn't understand what they were buying.  I thought that was common knowledge.  Do you dispute that?

Quote:

vault123 said:
I never said they didn’t have good reasons for doing it. I just said if they “didn’t care” about them that they wouldn’t manipulate them. I said absolutely nothing about their motivations for doing so. I was referring specifically to your claim that they “didn’t care” about them.



Fine.  When I said "the Fed doesn't care about interest rates", I meant they don't care what the interest rate is, as long is it keeps inflation in check.

Quote:

vault123 said:
I am sure you know far more about economics than this economics professor does.



What makes you think he's an economics professor?  My search showed he has a degree in law, not economics or business.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26372037 - 12/09/19 10:59 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)

What I was originally referring to was why housing prices were so high where OP lives. I wasn’t specifically referring to the sub prime mortgage crisis at that time. Though I was including it, I was more broadly referring to the trends and cycles in all economies more generally.

The sub prime mortgage crisis certainly had its specific culprits but booms and busts are nothing new to economic cycles. Shit there was a great tulip bubble one time so expansions and contractions are nothing new.

So I never took up a point arguing against your explanation of the sub prime mortgage crisis and that wasn’t specifically what I was referring to here, but inflation in general is caused by massive influxes of capital into a system. Like I mentioned earlier true value comes from production.

If you want to grow wealth grow production. Just adding capital without increasing production just causes inflation. I know you’re not gonna agree with that point I was mostly just addressing that in the sentence you claimed I was confused about I wasn’t referring to the specific reasons for the most recent recession.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


Edited by vault123 (12/09/19 11:04 PM)


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26372049 - 12/09/19 11:22 PM (6 months, 28 days ago)

The entire purpose of the explanation was to say that expanding the money supply is what is driving up housing prices. The point of saying that is to point out of we’ve been in an economic expansion for very long time and are overdue for a contraction.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


Edited by vault123 (12/09/19 11:24 PM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26372167 - 12/10/19 01:07 AM (6 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
They manipulate interest rates in order to keep inflation under control.




This.


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OfflineLachlen
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: living_failure]
    #26372179 - 12/10/19 01:21 AM (6 months, 28 days ago)

When you are young and tough, stop renting and buy some undeveloped land.

Work and develop it for you and your family. Keep it in your family for generations and keep improving it. Invest some money as to keep the land paid for by interest for perpetuity.

When you rent, you are buying your landlord the same kind of land over and over and over again.



People say they can't afford to buy land and wah wah wah.

I have seen it done plenty of times, but by people who do not cry and are pragmatic.

Use your income tax return over 3 years and stop smoking pot.

Then pick a state that has cheap land.

Develop it and live on it. Rent it out too. Farm. Livestock. Burn wood. Propane fridge. Solar.

Fuck the man. Fuck the grid.


Edited by Lachlen (12/10/19 01:22 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Lachlen] * 1
    #26372221 - 12/10/19 02:19 AM (6 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Lachlen said:
When you are young and tough, stop renting and buy some undeveloped land.

Work and develop it for you and your family. Keep it in your family for generations and keep improving it. Invest some money as to keep the land paid for by interest for perpetuity.

When you rent, you are buying your landlord the same kind of land over and over and over again.



People say they can't afford to buy land and wah wah wah.

I have seen it done plenty of times, but by people who do not cry and are pragmatic.

Use your income tax return over 3 years and stop smoking pot.

Then pick a state that has cheap land.

Develop it and live on it. Rent it out too. Farm. Livestock. Burn wood. Propane fridge. Solar.

Fuck the man. Fuck the grid.




I completely agree with this but you're expecting, way, way, WAY too much from the average person (very easy to do if you're a well-meaning person with the best of intentions).

If someone had the discipline to not joy spend on pot/blowing tax return on stupid shit, they probably wouldn't be in said mess in the first place. It's even less likely they'll discipline themselves out of the hole they're already in. There will always, always be a group of outliers that gets glorified and creates the illusion of "anyone and everyone can and will!", but that's not reality. The reality is that while all of that WILL work for people who apply it, the key word here is APPLY IT, which is exactly what most will NOT do.

Weight loss programs illustrate this perfectly. 9/10 people won't stick with it because the effort required is their actually roadblock; not money, food access, time management, etc. Those things are symptoms of deeper personal issues manifesting as personal economic circumstance. You can change it but changing yourself is usually more work than straight grinding through, so most people give up and do neither.

People, on average, do not push through uncomfortable changes on a consistent enough basis to see any beneficial result.

Extrapolate as you will.


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OfflineLachlen
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26372498 - 12/10/19 07:01 AM (6 months, 28 days ago)

I think most people can do it. The outliers who can't or don't want to will not.

I think the idea itself has different degrees. It could be anywhere from three acres, a well, a wood stove, and electricity poles to 50 acres with a $4,000 dollar Amish cabin with propane and solar.

The point, I think, is not to rent, but to own -- even if a small amount.

I am telling you, when you move onto land, you become "rich." That is, Everything that used to be payed to rent now goes to your bank account. Further, one does not need to be physically fit. One can pay a bulldozer to level 3 fields for several hundred dollars, which comes easily after you live on land while working a full time job... banking money.

Then you start saving hard and rent out a place.

When you have a passive income earner (renter), you can start to think about retirement.

Put some money away into retirement.


Edited by Lachlen (12/10/19 07:04 AM)


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Lachlen] * 2
    #26372539 - 12/10/19 07:22 AM (6 months, 28 days ago)

You have about 40 post in a day.

I wonder who you really are.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26383439 - 12/15/19 02:26 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Inflation in general is caused by massive influxes of capital into a system. Like I mentioned earlier true value comes from production.



Sorry for my delayed response, I was banned for the past week.

The Fed targets an inflation rate of ~3% per year.  Yes, that largely due to to an influx of new money into the system, but it is highly controlled.  Everything is supposed to go up by an average of about 3% per year.

The influx of money caused housing prices to go up by about 3% per year, and had nothing to do with the housing bubble.  Housing prices skyrocketed because anyone could suddenly get a loan, and everyone wanted one.  Private banks could do this becasue they could resell their subprime loans to people who didn't understand what they were buying.  The repeal of Glass Steagall was a factor in this.

Quote:

vault123 said:
Just adding capital without increasing production just causes inflation. I know you’re not gonna agree with that point I was mostly just addressing that in the sentence you claimed I was confused about I wasn’t referring to the specific reasons for the most recent recession.



I agree with you, but the Government uses capital to increase production by paying for things such as schools, roads, infrastructure, medicine, etc.

Quote:

vault123 said:
The entire purpose of the explanation was to say that expanding the money supply is what is driving up housing prices.



Only by about 3%, but not more.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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