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Invisiblevault123
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Registered: 01/31/15
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26370048 - 12/09/19 02:29 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

That is a good synopsis there but that had nothing to do with what I was asking about. I was specifically referring to when you said I was confusing “central bankers, Keynesian economists and private banks.” I was asking more of how exactly I was confusing those. That is good you provide a general timeline of events though just to make sure we’re all on the same page.

I meant more defining them. Like central banks are like ECB, the Fed, PBOC, private banks are more like “John and Marys banks down the street” or whatever bank you go to. Keynesian economists just being an economist who subscribes to the Keynesian model of economics which is to print money. So I was referring more to how you claimed that I was confusing them.

I’m going to say that Goldman Sachs and Wells Fargo  and whoever are in league with central banks. More specifically though, how would a private bank inflate a country’s currency? Because you said it was the private banks and not the central Bankers who did it.

I’m just curious how a private bank, which does not control a country’s currency, would be able to inflate that currency. I’m not saying they can’t, and I think they’re in bed together personally, I’m just curious how they do it. Because as far as I understood it it was the central Bankers with their negative interest rate policies and low interest rates and stimulus packages that were inflating the currency supply.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


Edited by vault123 (12/09/19 02:33 AM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370083 - 12/09/19 03:30 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Hillsdale College, huh. 

Quote:

What really moved us out of the Depression was a combination of factors that would boost our economy today just as well. They include the increase in international trade, fewer government regulations on the economic system, and lowered corporate and personal income tax rates that were implemented after the war. 




Lower taxes, regulations and a coded call for free trade.  In other words, less democratic influence over the economy and monetary system.

That's the exact opposite of where we need to go.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370263 - 12/09/19 08:14 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Here’s another interpretation of the Great Depression.

http://blog.hillsdale.edu/online-courses/keynesian-economics-and-the-great-depression



As JohnRainy pointed out, Hillsdale isn't exactly a powerhouse of knowledge.

With that said, your article is correct in that it wouldn't have made any difference to the economy if we spent all the money from WWII on shipping weapons to the Mojave desert only to blow them up there instead of sending them all over the world to fight in war.  But obviously the money was better spent winning a war than blowing things up in the Mojave Desert.  Similarly, it would have been better still to spend the money on things that directly benefit everyone rather than just fighting.  The problem, as I've stated previously, is how Government chooses to spend its money, the problem is NOT Keynesianism.  WWII was a great experiment to prove Keynesianism works.

And preventing a Great Depression after the latest housing crisis proved once again that Keynesianism works, but again the money arguably would have been far better spent on Main St rather than Wall St., and again that's a Government problem, not a Keynesianism problem.

Quote:

vault123 said:
That is a good synopsis there but that had nothing to do with what I was asking about. I was specifically referring to when you said I was confusing “central bankers, Keynesian economists and private banks.” I was asking more of how exactly I was confusing those. That is good you provide a general timeline of events though just to make sure we’re all on the same page.



You confused them by saying you "blame this on the central bankers and Keynesian economists".  They are the ones who fixed the problem, they didn't cause it.  The private banks caused it.

Quote:

vault123 said:
I meant more defining them. Like central banks are like ECB, the Fed, PBOC, private banks are more like “John and Marys banks down the street” or whatever bank you go to.



Exactly correct.

Quote:

vault123 said:
Keynesian economists just being an economist who subscribes to the Keynesian model of economics which is to print money.



No, that's not true at all.  Keynesian economics says to spend more ONLY if the private sector gets us into a huge mess that would lead to a depression (though many US presidents spend more money anyway to make themselves look good creating debt future Presidents don't want).  Again, a problem with Government, not Keynesianism.

Quote:

vault123 said:
It's to spend more during down times and less during up times.



Yes, exactly.

Quote:

vault123 said:
I’m going to say that Goldman Sachs and Wells Fargo  and whoever are in league with central banks.



No, Central Banks are in league with the Government.  Private banks are often leveraged to help implement Central Banking policy, however.

Quote:

vault123 said:
More specifically though, how would a private bank inflate a country’s currency? Because you said it was the private banks and not the central Bankers who did it.



Yes, private banks were responsible for the housing bubble.

Quote:

vault123 said:
I’m just curious how a private bank, which does not control a country’s currency, would be able to inflate that currency. I’m not saying they can’t, and I think they’re in bed together personally, I’m just curious how they do it. Because as far as I understood it it was the central Bankers with their negative interest rate policies and low interest rates and stimulus packages that were inflating the currency supply.



Central Banks keep inflation low (in the US they target about 3% inflation per year).  It's private banks that cause inflation (which the Central Banks have to counter).  As described above, private banks changed lending conditions so that anyone could buy a house, thus creating the housing bubble.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26370471 - 12/09/19 10:56 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Do central banks have anything to do with price inflation?


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370474 - 12/09/19 10:59 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I don’t want to misrepresent your position here. Is what you’re saying that “private banks make the mess, and central banks clean it up?”


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370512 - 12/09/19 11:19 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Did government regulation play any role at all in the subprime mortgage crisis?


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370538 - 12/09/19 11:30 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Did government regulation play any role at all in the subprime mortgage crisis?




In my opinion, the only reasons why the banks engaged in that reckless behavior was because they knew they would get bailed out.  Today, "too big to fail" is essentially a law written into legislation.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fed-adds-81-4-billion-in-short-term-liquidity-to-markets-11575906103

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/fed-repo-operations-explained-what-they-are-and-used-for-2019-9-1028557683

"The Fed has pumped hundreds of billions into the market"

This doesn't even make headline news anymore, the (Elite) government has taken over the markets. The Elite don't even take chances anymore, it's total control today.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: qman]
    #26370699 - 12/09/19 12:59 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

If what you are saying is true  then why would killer  real estate  Jews vote for Trump to save their wealth ? Seems like they would do the opposite , isn’t trump fighting the elite on behalf of the working man ?


Quote:

Trump Slammed For Insisting 'Killer' Real Estate Jews Will Back Him To Save Their Wealth





https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/jews-denounce-iac-wealth-stereotypes-012848412.html


--------------------



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370716 - 12/09/19 01:06 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Do central banks have anything to do with price inflation?



No, not really.  They have the ability to impact price inflation, but they try to keep it around 3%/year, and they've done a pretty good job of that since the Federal Reserve Reform Act of 1977.

Quote:

vault123 said:
I don’t want to misrepresent your position here. Is what you’re saying that “private banks make the mess, and central banks clean it up?”



Yes.  If you feel differently, you'll need to explain how the Central Banks messed things up, as I explained how private banks messed things up.

Quote:

vault123 said:
Did government regulation play any role at all in the subprime mortgage crisis?



Government deregulation of Glass Steagall played a part.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26370722 - 12/09/19 01:12 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Isn’t trump fighting the elite on behalf of the working man ?



:rofl2:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26370758 - 12/09/19 01:29 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

“”They always call the other side ‘the elite’. Why are they elite? I have a much better apartment than they do,”“
  Donald j Trump


--------------------



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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26370783 - 12/09/19 01:46 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Whoops


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (12/09/19 01:47 PM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123]
    #26370839 - 12/09/19 02:27 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
Do central banks have anything to do with price inflation?




The interest rate central banks set greatly influences the money supply.  High interest rates=less creation of new "loans', low interest rates is opposite.

The less loans that are being taken out the less money there is in the economy, and that puts upward pressure on its value. 

Opposite is the case in a low interest rate environment.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26370843 - 12/09/19 02:32 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
If what you are saying is true  then why would killer  real estate  Jews vote for Trump to save their wealth ? Seems like they would do the opposite , isn’t trump fighting the elite on behalf of the working man ?


Quote:

Trump Slammed For Insisting 'Killer' Real Estate Jews Will Back Him To Save Their Wealth





It doesn't matter who the very wealthy vote for, they don't rely on the voting booth to control their destiny. :rofl2:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26370847 - 12/09/19 02:34 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Quote:

vault123 said:
Do central banks have anything to do with price inflation?




The interest rate central banks set greatly influences the money supply.  High interest rates=less creation of new "loans', low interest rates is opposite.

The less loans that are being taken out the less money there is in the economy, and that puts upward pressure on its value. 

Opposite is the case in a low interest rate environment.




Yet, credit creation in the real economy remains low since the financial crisis in 2008. In "normal" times, lowering rates would stimulate credit growth, that's not longer the case.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: qman]
    #26370861 - 12/09/19 02:41 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Credit creation in the real economy remains low since the financial crisis in 2008. In "normal" times, lowering rates would stimulate credit growth, that's not longer the case.



Are you sure about that?  All the sources I'm looking at show otherwise.  Can you provide a link?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26370892 - 12/09/19 02:57 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

We are in uncharted territory. I hope the Keynesian economists with their “modern monetary theory” are right and we've seen the end of recessions and we can just swim lavishly in the wealth bestowed upon us by central bankers who have everything under control. I hope that is the case, but I don’t believe it. The Fed has been around since 1913 and they’ve never been able to predict the market in all that time.

They’ve attempted to stop recessions in the past and have been unsuccessful every single time. Roughly every 7 years we have had a recession in spite of Fed money printing and manipulation. Perhaps this time they’ve figured out how to get the market under control and now they can predict market trends, but historically speaking they have never been able to before. The Fed has not once been able to stop a recession in the past and I would argue they exacerbated the ones that have occurred, and here’s why.

We are in negative interest rates in Europe. Near zero in America with three percent inflation. Which means any money you save in your bank account looses value the longer it is in there. We incentivizing irresponsible behavior and encouraging consumers to spend their money and take out as many loans as possible with cheap credit. Not only is this an unsustainable business model but they (the Fed) is stealing the money right out of your bank account with their 3% inflation target and not giving a penny in interest on the money you save.

Why would anyone be happy about the money they worked and sacrificed for to be worth less every year? We’ve only been off the gold standard since the 1970s. the Fed attempted to normalize interest rates recently and back peddled on it almost immediately. We are in uncharted waters here. By attempting to suppress economic contractions central banks create a much greater entropic disturbance that needs to be equalized. This is causes a bubble. The natural state of markets is that they fluctuate they up they go down, but attempting to just make it go up forever you’re distorting market forces. Those distortions are what cause bubbles.

Value is derived from production. Not from simply pumping a market full of fiat currency. Market forces haven’t been allowed to normalize prices in a very long time. So knowing what something should be worth right now is impossible. I highly doubt a standard size single family home is worth anywhere near the prices they are going for now. In spite of all of the money printing and market manipulation I think the markets will still eventually normalize, but the longer that takes the greater the disturbance will be when it occurs.

That said, I may be wrong. I’ve been wrong before. Like I opened with, I hope they’re right.  Either case, that is an explanation for why housing prices are absolutely insane right now. Most of this philosophy I took from Mike Maloneys hidden secrets of money if anyone is interested in a more detailed explanation. I don’t agree with everything he says but I think a lot of his theories are grounded in sound philosophical principals.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26370916 - 12/09/19 03:12 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Credit creation in the real economy remains low since the financial crisis in 2008. In "normal" times, lowering rates would stimulate credit growth, that's not longer the case.



Are you sure about that?  All the sources I'm looking at show otherwise.  Can you provide a link?




It appears that household, nonfinancial business and financial sector credit growth rates are all down relative to pre-2008 levels.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IN10908.pdf


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: vault123] * 1
    #26370935 - 12/09/19 03:24 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

vault123 said:
We are in uncharted territory.



We've been charting this since WWII.  :shrug:

Quote:

vault123 said:
I hope the Keynesian economists with their “modern monetary theory” are right and we've seen the end of recessions and we can just swim lavishly in the wealth bestowed upon us by central bankers who have everything under control. I hope that is the case, but I don’t believe it.



The Fed never claimed it would end recessions (not to my knowledge).  Hopefully we've seen the end of depressions, however.

Quote:

vault123 said:
They’ve attempted to stop recessions in the past and have been unsuccessful every single time. Roughly every 7 years we have had a recession in spite of Fed money printing and manipulation. Perhaps this time they’ve figured out how to get the market under control and now they can predict market trends, but historically speaking they have never been able to before. The Fed has not once been able to stop a recession in the past



Again, they don't try to end recessions, they try to preventing depressions.

Quote:

vault123 said:
I would argue they exacerbated the ones that have occurred, and here’s why.

We are in negative interest rates in Europe. Near zero in America with three percent inflation. Which means any money you save in your bank account looses value the longer it is in there. We incentivizing irresponsible behavior and encouraging consumers to spend their money and take out as many loans as possible with cheap credit. Not only is this an unsustainable business model but they (the Fed) is stealing the money right out of your bank account with their 3% inflation target and not giving a penny in interest on the money you save.  Why would anyone be happy about the money they worked and sacrificed for to be worth less every year?



People have to spend in order to prevent recessions; that's just capitalism.  If you don't want to save money at negative interest rates, put your money elsewhere, like the stock market.  That's what I do.  :shrug:

Quote:

vault123 said:
We’ve only been off the gold standard since the 1970s. the Fed attempted to normalize interest rates recently and back peddled on it almost immediately. We are in uncharted waters here.



Wrong - the Fed doesn't care about interest rates, they care about inflation.  And they've done a good job keeping that under control.

Quote:

vault123 said:
By attempting to suppress economic contractions central banks create a much greater entropic disturbance that needs to be equalized. This is causes a bubble.



No.  They suppress economic contractions to prevent depressions.  They'll ease off well before they create a bubble (though that doesn't prevent the private sector from creating bubbles).

Quote:

vault123 said:
The natural state of markets is that they fluctuate they up they go down, but attempting to just make it go up forever you’re distorting market forces. Those distortions are what cause bubbles.



Again, the Central Bank tries to smooth out the ups and downs, and that's a good thing.  But Presidents and Governments prefer the ups, so they often like to deficit spend when they shouldn't be.  Again, a problem caused by Governments, not Central Banks.

Quote:

vault123 said:
Value is derived from production. Not from simply pumping a market full of fiat currency.  Market forces haven’t been allowed to normalize prices in a very long time. So knowing what something should be worth right now is impossible. I highly doubt a standard size single family home is worth anywhere near the prices they are going for now.



Houses are worth EXACTLY what they're selling for.  That's how supply and demand works.

Quote:

vault123 said:
That is an explanation for why housing prices are absolutely insane right now.



No.  Housing prices are insane right now because people sell their homes for whatever they can get, and people buy homes for what they think they're worth.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rent, home ownership and the future of social classes [Re: qman]
    #26370957 - 12/09/19 03:35 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
It appears that household, nonfinancial business and financial sector credit growth rates are all down relative to pre-2008 levels.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/IN10908.pdf



That shows credit is, in fact, growing.  Do you think debt should be growing at an even faster rate?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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