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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: meaculpaUIO]
    #26364483 - 12/06/19 07:56 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meaculpaUIO said:
Are we one species united or one divided apart?



As tribal creatures, I don't believe we can/will be anything but the latter.

For sure, I dream of and aspire to the 'Star Trek' future utopia - where we have ended war, hunger, etc, and are a single unit - but realistically I don't think it's likely to ever happen.

Therefore the burden lies with each of us to put in the heroic effort required to be the best version of ourselves we can be - for when we try and make the world around us the best version of it as we see fit - we invariably perpetuate conflict, since each persons vision of the best world will be different.

However striving to be the best version of our individual selves would invariably reduce the conflict and suffering in the world at large, IMO.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #26364486 - 12/06/19 07:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Im saying crackdown with like serious enforcable regulations like we had to do with everything else. let these people know if they want to do business they have to do it the right way or else. people that have been doing already illegal and unscupulous things need to be fined and actually go to jail.



Or, in other words, as I was saying in my post above, don't do/be this.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinefeldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26364493 - 12/06/19 08:04 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

meaculpaUIO said:
Are we one species united or one divided apart?



As tribal creatures, I don't believe we can/will be anything but the latter.

For sure, I dream of and aspire to the 'Star Trek' future utopia - where we have ended war, hunger, etc, and are a single unit - but realistically I don't think it's likely to ever happen.

Therefore the burden lies with each of us to put in the heroic effort required to be the best version of ourselves we can be - for when we try and make the world around us the best version of it as we see fit - we invariably perpetuate conflict, since each persons vision of the best world will be different.

However striving to be the best version of our individual selves would invariably reduce the conflict and suffering in the world at large, IMO.




I’ve never seen someone contradict themselves so articulately.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: feldman114]
    #26364502 - 12/06/19 08:13 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

How clever of you to point out 'this is wrong' but not state why.

Come on lad, don't be lazy!! If I'm really missing a point, or deluded, or just plain ignorant, then why not elucidate?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinefeldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26364564 - 12/06/19 09:02 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Just read the first sentence of your post. Now read the last one����‍♂️
You begin by saying we can’t ever change, and finish by saying we can change the world.

Individualism can seem like progress but it’s just part of every civilization’s decay. Maybe when we evolve some more, we can stop going in circles, but we’re living in at least the 6th age of individualism.
Grab “The Human Cycle” by Sri Aurobindo for the full picture.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: feldman114]
    #26364608 - 12/06/19 09:32 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I appreciate you actually giving me something to think about. I'll add the book to my list but it might take me a while to get around to it; I had a bit of a major wake up call in my life very recently and there's some literature that I absolutely need to cover right now to take full advantage of this opportunity for growth.

However, being as I shitpost here whilst filling in the breaks in my job, perhaps you would talk it out with me in the meantime?

So are you saying that we should not focus on individualism? Do you have a tangible idea about what we should do, other than perform the first, and utmost hardest work on, and in, ourselves?

At the moment the theory - if I have it right - just doesn't make any sense to me. Trying to change the world, to my eyes, just looks like frustration and fruitlessness - at least - if one attempts to do so before one has fully 'cleaned house' so to speak.

Do you feel you can see a better path than that?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinefeldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 2
    #26364630 - 12/06/19 09:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You’re separating concepts that can’t exist separately in practice. Our external “world” is just as much a part of our internal self as we ourselves are part of the world. Fixing/neglecting one IS fixing/neglecting the other.

The Renaissance was a period of individualism. At first, we make technological, theological and even spiritual strides. But, as a result of the elevation of “self” in society, we gave birth to enormous egos like Cortez, Yermak and Napoleon, who made the world a hellhole. The world was worse than the individual was better.
The worst part is, these “enlightened” periods of individualism are always followed by a form of backlash. For the above example, the backlash manifested itself as collective movements - putting the “whole” before the individual - such as socialism and communism.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: feldman114]
    #26364650 - 12/06/19 10:00 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So not being a reader or student of history you'll have to forgive my ignorance, but does it then seem - since you're clearly educated on it - that these periods cycle continuously throughout time?

If so, how do we break out of that cycle? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that you're advocating as 50/50 kind of balance in our efforts inwards and outwards?

Perhaps I've become a little jaded as to the outwards side of the effort.. since the inception of the internet - where everyone now has a voice - it seems to me that what constitutes most peoples outward effort is bitching and moaning and complaining. Every little thing seems to be a problem for someone these days, regardless of how noble its original intention may be.

I see very, very, very few people who actually do genuine good in their outwards efforts. I can think of maybe two people, of the thousands upon thousands I've known, whose outward efforts actually put some good into the world.

I'd be the first to join - and sacrifice myself for, if necessary - the revolution, the path to something better than this, were it clear and observable. But it a world so confused with a billion conflicting voices telling us which way we should be going, I can't see any clear and observable path to putting good into the world other than to be my best self so that I most positively influence the existence of the people that I come into direct contact with.

If I make ripples without first being my cleanest self, then my ripples will be tinged with my dirt, right?

So therefore, how can the best path be to not first focus on that gargantuan task of cleaning my own house?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinefeldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #26364723 - 12/06/19 10:45 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The only way to break the cycle is to realize that there is no difference between growing as an individual and as a society. The reason why this seems somewhat vague to us is our current state of affairs - the current age of individualism.

When people bitch and moan online, they’re just trying to feed their ego. They do this because their whole life people tell them they’re special, important, perfect. This belief eliminates their need to grow, become better...”why should I change anything about my special, perfect self?”

But, of course, if everyone is special than, by definition, no one is. This is the conclusion that ends EVERY period of individualism. However, it is at this point in the cycle that we have a good chance of breaking free. Instead of backlashing into another form of collective thinking, another form of nationalism (putting the nation/country/race on the same false pedestal), we can instead evolve*. The trick is for all individuals to evolve together, as a society, eliminating the separation of self & everyone else.

how do we get everyone to evolve? That’s the trillion dollar question Sri Aurobindo spent his life trying to answer. The answer he came up with is called Integral Yoga. And it could’ve worked if his work didn’t emerge during the rise of atheism. Even though it’s not a religion, integrated yoga touches on stuff like the soul (not the traditional meaning), and that turns a lot of people away. In truth, it is NOT a religion...more like a textbook really.

P.S. I’m no history professor, but my uncle actually is one. Years ago, I spent literally months trying to disprove the Human Cycle theory he kept pushing. The more I researched, the more I became convinced he’s right. I have not been able to find a single society that didn’t follow the cycle...in all human history.
Just some backstory on why I’m “preaching” this.

P.P.S. Sorry for the spelling and formatting. I’m also passing time in a cubicle😔 trying to hide my phone from the cameras.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 19 hours, 17 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: viraldrome]
    #26364865 - 12/06/19 12:01 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

viraldrome said:
Quote:

Shiithead said:
The US incentivizes good health, safe sex, and essentially freedom on both ends of the spectrum too. I personally like the way things are because we are free to choose.




Good health isn't always a choice you make. Sometimes life throws funky diseases at you for no reason. Its amazing to see people try and blame others for being sick, whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

I'm glad I live in civilized nation with free health care that doesn't throw poor sick people under the bus. I have to worry about paying rent, buying food and putting gas in my car, but I don't need to worry paying to see a doctor. A crushing medical bill is the opposite of freedom.



what is freedom? forcing a doctor to work for free? or taking someone's money an gunpoint and using that to pay for your doctor's visit?

is using the government to steal people's money at gunpoint really freedom? because to me having rights like a right to property would be freedom and having that right violated would be tyranny.

I get it. you guys want free stuff. fine. thats what you want. but dont call it freedom because its not. violating human rights is not freedom. so just be honest. dont be disingenuous about wanting freedom. if you really beleive in what you are saying just be honest about it.

of course modern medicine is expensive. some of this stuff was just discovered within our life time. its brand new and revolutionary our grandparents didnt have alot of the stuff we have. our quality of life as a generation has been madly improved. in a while if companies are allowed to compete with each other the cost will come down and the quality will go even higher. thats how things work. when i was in middle school 3d printers were new and they cost an insane amount of money. now my poorest friend could afford to buy one as an impulse buy for no reason because they cost as little as a couple hundred dollars.

I was talking to my mom the other day and she used to get shots as a kid because they had athsma and she said they would use the same needle for multiple people. we are improving drastically when it comes to medicine and you dont have to look back very far before we didnt have anything or much of a clue how medecine even worked.


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Offlinekoods
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Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,313
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26364881 - 12/06/19 12:10 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

what is freedom? forcing a doctor to work for free? or taking someone's money an gunpoint and using that to pay for your doctor's visit?




This doesn’t happen. You’re absurd

If you want to talk about metaphorically stealing money at gunpoint to pay for a doctor’s visit, that would describe a guy paying a half million dollars to cure his cancer without insurance.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/06/19 12:14 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods] * 1
    #26364890 - 12/06/19 12:18 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I get it. you guys want free stuff. fine.




Nobody is saying it’s free. You just complained about them taking money at gunpoint, so how exactly is this free?

You’re not exactly a deep thinker are you?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
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Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 19 hours, 17 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods] * 1
    #26364900 - 12/06/19 12:24 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

what is freedom? forcing a doctor to work for free? or taking someone's money an gunpoint and using that to pay for your doctor's visit?




This doesn’t happen. You’re absurd

If you want to talk about metaphorically stealing money at gunpoint to pay for a doctor’s visit, that would describe a guy paying a half million dollars to cure his cancer without insurance.



um are taxes voluntary? what happens if I dont pay them? what happens if I resist the police when they try to arrest me for not paying them?


nature gave him cancer. nobody gave him cancer to extract money from him. its circumstance. pointing a gun at someone and making them pay for your goods and services isnt at all the same. you are acctually threatoning to end someones life. when treating cancer you are offering care on certain terms.

just saying things should be free doesnt make them appear. the great imrovement s we have had in modern medecine didnt come from a government telling people to be innovative. it came laregly from private individuals and parties who worked hard and whose hard work payed off.

just declaring that things should be free and abundant doesnt make it so. and if you count on that to push society forward you wont get very far.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 19 hours, 17 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods] * 1
    #26364902 - 12/06/19 12:24 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

I get it. you guys want free stuff. fine.




Nobody is saying it’s free. You just complained about them taking money at gunpoint, so how exactly is this free?

You’re not exactly a deep thinker are you?



its free for the person who took it. you're not exactly a deep thinker are you?


Edited by BANANA.MAN (12/06/19 12:25 PM)


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OfflineJailbird420
Old Man
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Registered: 02/20/19
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26364906 - 12/06/19 12:25 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
what is freedom? forcing a doctor to work for free? or taking someone's money an gunpoint and using that to pay for your doctor's visit?




Proof that you are completely clueless as to how universal/single-payer healthcare works.

Virtually all public services are paid for with taxes.

Do you think that the police are forcing you "at gunpoint" to pay the taxes that fund their Department?

What about the Fire Department?

Or the public school teacher.

All of these are public services that get paid for with taxation.

Adding healthcare to the list of things that get paid for with taxes, would be no different. Everyone pays into the system and everyone benefits from said system, be it police/fire departments, public schools, highways or healthcare.

This is proven to be a cheaper, more effective way to deal with healthcare than the current profit-driven (corrupt) system the U.S. has.


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OfflineJailbird420
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Registered: 02/20/19
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26364919 - 12/06/19 12:29 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
the great imrovement s we have had in modern medecine didnt come from a government telling people to be innovative.




Wrong again.

Most of the innovations in the U.S. today came from government-funded research facilities.

Try again, cupcake, because so far, all you have proven is how fucking stupid the average American citizen is.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
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Registered: 01/11/15
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Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 19 hours, 17 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jailbird420]
    #26364922 - 12/06/19 12:31 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jailbird420 said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
what is freedom? forcing a doctor to work for free? or taking someone's money an gunpoint and using that to pay for your doctor's visit?




Proof that you are completely clueless as to how universal/single-payer healthcare works.

Virtually all public services are paid for with taxes.

Do you think that the police are forcing you "at gunpoint" to pay the taxes that fund their Department?

What about the Fire Department?

Or the public school teacher.

All of these are public services that get paid for with taxation.

Adding healthcare to the list of things that get paid for with taxes, would be no different. Everyone pays into the system and everyone benefits from said system, be it police/fire departments, public schools, highways or healthcare.

This is proven to be a cheaper, more effective way to deal with healthcare than the current profit-driven (corrupt) system the U.S. has.



Police and fire departments acctually do gove everyone the same benefit.

if someone else's house catches on fire its in the interest of the whole town to put it out because the fire can cause colatteral damage. if there is a criminal in one part of town its in everyone's interest to stop them.

public schools and healthcare are redistributive. what if i want to put my kids in a private school that I pay for? I'm not saying I would but suppose I home school them. I'm paying taxes without just compensation.

another thing about fire and police is they arent competitive. whereas there is a high degree of competition in education and healthcare

I live in Canada man. Our supreme court declared it a violation of human rights to ban private health insurance because our healthcare provided by the government is inadequate.

education and healthcare are not public goods. they are commodities.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Male
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 19 hours, 17 minutes
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jailbird420] * 1
    #26364925 - 12/06/19 12:32 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jailbird420 said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
the great imrovement s we have had in modern medecine didnt come from a government telling people to be innovative.




Wrong again.

Most of the innovations in the U.S. today came from government-funded research facilities.

Try again, cupcake, because so far, all you have proven is how fucking stupid the average American citizen is.



I'm not an American citizen.

most new medications are developed in the private sector still to this day.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.policymed.com/amp/2011/02/nejm-the-private-sector-discoveries-account-for-79-90-of-pharmaceutical-products.html


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OfflineTripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!
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Registered: 08/01/12
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Jailbird420]
    #26364926 - 12/06/19 12:33 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

And then there comes a point when the system no longer wants to pay the amount the workers feel entitled too. And the workers stop, and the system starts to apply pressure. And the other people in the system apply pressure because they also feel entitled to more but continue working. And the system gives in a little and everybody goes back to work.

And nobody is happy but now we are all trapped in this system that we dont want to be a part of. And some people play the system with great succes and we hate them for it...


--------------------
Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros...

A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.



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Invisibletyrannicalrex
Strange R
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Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
Loc: subtropics
Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26364932 - 12/06/19 12:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

They don't have to be so greedy about it. Why can't they just make a few mill or bill instead of maximizing incredibly high profits? We can't make money/people have morals and that's the problem. If they are developing these drugs to help people why don't they actually help by making it affordable to the planet? Greedy greedy fucks!


--------------------


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