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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
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Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
#26370074 - 12/09/19 01:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Tantrika said:
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Patlal said: ...Can you handle scientific fact?
Sure, how about you?
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Antiscientific sentiment bombards our politics, or so says the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW). Chief among these antiscientific sentiments, the IDW cites the rising visibility of transgender civil rights demands. To the IDW, trans people and their advocates are destroying the pillars of our society with such free-speech–suppressing, postmodern concepts as: “trans women are women,” “gender-neutral pronouns,” or “there are more than two genders.” Asserting “basic biology” will not be ignored, the IDW proclaims. “Facts don’t care about your feelings.”
The irony in all this is that these “protectors of enlightenment” are guilty of the very behavior this phrase derides. Though often dismissed as just a fringe internet movement, they espouse unscientific claims that have infected our politics and culture. Especially alarming is that these “intellectual” assertions are used by nonscientists to claim a scientific basis for the dehumanization of trans people. The real world consequences are stacking up: the trans military ban, bathroom bills, and removal of workplace and medical discrimination protections, a 41-51 percent suicide attempt rate and targeted fatal violence . It’s not just internet trolling anymore.
Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”
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BIOLOGICAL SEX: HOW YOU GET IT
Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.
Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.
A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*
Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.
And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.
There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.
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THE BRAIN: WHERE STUFF GETS “MADE UP”
When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.
Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.
Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.
It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.
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THE BODY AND THE BRAIN AND THE HORMONES BETWIXT
As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”
For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.
Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.
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SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER
While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality.
Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/
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“It’s All in Your Head” – Except When It’s Not
Sex determination – the way we are “coded” into a biological sex – is complicated in and of itself. There are far more options than just “male” or “female,” and countless instances of species that can actually transition from one sex to another within a single lifetime. With most mammals, however, the majority of individuals are cisgender male or female; transgender individuals are estimated to comprise about 0.3% of the adult U.S. population.
Little is known about the causes of transsexuality, and many of the studies that have been conducted – particularly psychological studies – have since been widely discredited (more on that later). However, scientists do seem to have some information on the biological basis of several factors.
First and foremost, is gender identity genetic? It seems the answer is yes – though, as with most traits involving identity, there is some environmental influence. One classic way for scientists to test whether a trait (which can be any characteristic from red hair to cancer susceptibility to love of horror movies) is influenced by genetics is twin studies. Identical twins have the exact same genetic background, and are usually raised in the same environment. Fraternal (nonidentical) twins, however, share only half their genes, but tend to also be raised in the same environment. Thus, if identical twins tend to share a trait more than fraternal twins, that trait is probably influenced by genetics. Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity. So, what genes might be responsible?
Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.
In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.
Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men. These differences remained even after the scientists took into account the fact that many transgender men and women in their study were taking estrogen and testosterone during their transition by including cisgender men and women who were also on hormones not corresponding to their assigned biological sex (for a variety of medical reasons). These findings have since been confirmed and corroborated in other studies and other regions of the brain, including a region of the brain called the sexually dimorphic nucleus (Figure 2) that is believed to affect sexual behavior in animals.
It has been conclusively shown that hormone treatment can vastly affect the structure and composition of the brain; thus, several teams sought to characterize the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undergone hormone treatment. Several studies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned.
 http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
This is an amazing post PACKED with absolutely pertinent info.
Bookmarked for later use and reference! Thank you!
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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YangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
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Re: Jordan Peterson *DELETED* [Re: lowbrow]
#26370293 - 12/09/19 06:39 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by YangSupporter
Reason for deletion: q
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Here’s my favorite post in the Jordan Peterson subreddit. Called “I took my girlfriend to see Jordan Peterson”
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It did not go as well as I hoped. Let me give you a bit of a back story. I am using a throwaway because my girlfriend knows my main Reddit.
I found out about Jordan Peterson about a year ago and since then I became a huge fan. I was never a big reader, but I got all of his books. (They are the only books on my bookshelf and also a book about John F. Kennedy my aunt gave me but I never read. So I don't have many books and its a small shelf.)
I am 19 years old now. I met my girlfriend when we were 17 in high school. When I was 18 I moved out and began to go to the local university. My girlfriend is the same age as I am and she started classes there too. When I moved out is around the time I started reading Dr. Peterson's work and I took the battle against chaos to heart. Mostly because I was a very messy person before. So I kept my new room very clean (I have a roommate who helps) and I was finally able to decorate it the way that I wanted since I moved out. Mostly I kept it simple and tasteful but I also have a big poster of Dr. Peterson in my room.
When I began to see how important Dr. Peterson had become in my life I started trying to get my girlfriend interested. But she did not seem very interested. I thought he could help her a lot, because when we met and she lived at home she was a very messy and chaotic person also. We both were then. Since she moved out also and got a roommate it has gotten even worse for her. I would say her room is about fifty percent messier than it was. She is slouching a lot. She is also very disorganized with her classes and note taking (somehow she is still getting all As, I got all As too my first semester but I also got two Cs). I can't even read or understand the notes she takes for her class. I tried to tell her to be more organized and less chaotic with it, that it would help her more, but I think it got annoying for her to hear it.
Anyway when we would hang out I would try to get her to listen to Dr. Peterson's lectures but it always seemed like a chore or like she didn't really want to. I found it really frustrating because he was so inspiring for me. Eventually I stopped putting them on because I would hear and see her sigh in an exaggerated way when I would put YouTube on with his lectures.
Not long ago it was coming up on the day that we met (our anniversary) and we had a nice dinner at a seafood place we both really like. A few days later I got us tickets to see Dr. Peterson speak. I had hoped that it would be better than the videos. She seemed excited to go and we had a nice night together.
The next day we didn't talk, which is normal these days with school and stuff. I sent her a text message the day after and she didn't respond which I thought was weird. Then I did it the day after and still no response. She didn't write back to me for four days! Until I sent her a long message just asking for an explanation for why she ghosted me or at least let me know she is okay.
A few days later she finally sent me a long email. She said that she wanted some space and that she needed to think. That things were changing and that they weren't the same as they were. She actually blamed Dr. Peterson for changing me! Which is true but I thought I changed for the better. She said I was being really strict with the cleanliness now and that I was saying too much about her being messy. That I wasn't fun any more. And also she said that she wanted to see other people and that she wasn't sure I was the person she wanted to be with forever in a relationship. This was very disappointing to see her go against monogamous relationships.
That isn't all though. I talked to a mutual friend of ours and she told me some things really candidly. Our friend said that after seeing Jordan Peterson in person my girlfriend was really weirded out. Because I cried a little bit there and there were other men crying too. (I didn't think this was fair, there is no shame in crying.) Also that she felt like following Dr. Peterson's advice made me kind of less fun and more boring than how I was when we met at 17. Basically that she thought I became a little too "obsessed" with him. She also said that my girlfriend thought some of the things Dr. Peterson said about relationships were chauvinistic and unrealistic. And then she (not my girlfriend but our friend) said she researched Dr. Peterson and that he hated women and kind of scolded me. I told her that was just SJW/Cultural Marxist propaganda, that Dr. Peterson wasn't really like that and she just didn't understand him. She said I was "talking down" to her and that is why my girlfriend left me. (I don't think she left me she never said she didn't want to see me any more btw.)
Anyway what do I do? How do I fix this and get our friend and my girlfriend to be okay with Dr. Peterson?
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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That is nothing short of incredible.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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lowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!


Registered: 09/12/08
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Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
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YangSupporter said:
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lowbrow said:
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YangSupporter said: Theres no need if Peterson can't hold his own debating I have no desire to read or purchase his book.
So did you even watch this video? Matt and Jordan had a nice discussion along the lines of ‘change my mind’ but there was no intellectual cucking by either side.
Go ahead and read his book. The worst that could happen is that he could get you laid.
The title was a joke dude you need to relax.
Well what a coincidence, because i was joking too. Goddamn, aint that some serindipity.
-------------------- Amanita86 said: Sui is trying to mod right now. Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..
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christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
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lmao, that dude probably banged his chick on his bed while looking at his poster of Dr. Peterson.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 7,129
Loc: West of Windward
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Yeah that is kinda weird
Boy probably missed a father figure in his life
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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lovecheese
observer



Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 682
Loc: n. illinois
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he’s a grifter
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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I personally think the entire field of philosophy to be a worthless endeavor.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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CornboySavage
Stranger
Registered: 10/22/19
Posts: 232
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26371359 - 12/09/19 04:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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koods said: I personally think the entire field of philosophy to be a worthless endeavor.
ok brainlet
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 38 seconds
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I noticed you disappeared from the discussion where you accused the New York Times being fake news when they claimed the NavSec was willing to be fired when he actually got fired not three hours later.
You have anything to say about being so completely wrong?
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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CornboySavage
Stranger
Registered: 10/22/19
Posts: 232
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26371377 - 12/09/19 04:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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You brainlet because you making that broad statement about philosophy, is itself PHILOSOPHY and you dont even realize you are doing it LOL
Under this definition "an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs" and "a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thought "
If you cant see this you be brainlet dog
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 38 seconds
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self referential garbage
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 38 seconds
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26371388 - 12/09/19 04:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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koods said: I noticed you disappeared from the discussion where you accused the New York Times being fake news when they claimed the NavSec was willing to be fired when he actually got fired not three hours later.
You have anything to say about being so completely wrong?
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,283
Loc: Hampsterdam
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26371394 - 12/09/19 04:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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koods said:
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koods said: I noticed you disappeared from the discussion where you accused the New York Times being fake news when they claimed the NavSec was willing to be fired when he actually got fired not three hours later.
You have anything to say about being so completely wrong?
*SecNav
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 38 seconds
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My ex was in the navy and would answer his work phone “NavCommTelComm”
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Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,283
Loc: Hampsterdam
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26371412 - 12/09/19 04:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Awesome
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 7,129
Loc: West of Windward
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26372134 - 12/10/19 12:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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koods said: I personally think the entire field of philosophy to be a worthless endeavor.
You are very much correct in this. The main thing philosophers of the past 2500 years have been trying is to be relevant. I know, I studied philosophy
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 4 hours
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Quote:
Tripsurfer said: Boy probably missed a father figure in his life
This.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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lowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!


Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 9,662
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
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Tripsurfer said: Boy probably missed a father figure in his life
This.
You realize that reddit post was a troll, right?
-------------------- Amanita86 said: Sui is trying to mod right now. Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..
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