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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods] * 2
    #26367452 - 12/07/19 05:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I bet he likes Don Cherry




Canadian legend.


--------------------


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Burke Dennings] * 1
    #26367457 - 12/07/19 05:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Burke Dennings said:
Im generally not one to split hairs, but since you brought it up, I looked into the claims of musical genius. 

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25319322

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25306870

These are two of Pat’s threads on the subject (there may be more, but he was making a LOT of threads at the time- he was in a bit of a weird headspace).  I’ll admit that I didn’t go through these threads very thoroughly, but in the OPs, he talks a lot specifically about the incredible music talent of Kid Rock.  He does once mention that Kid is “super business minded”, but offers no further thoughts on the subject or elucidation, mentioning nothing about marketing to Americans or Canadians, but I’ll concede that Kid Rock’s representation team has done a good enough job.  I think he just really liked the music. :shrug:

But to bring it back on topic, Jordan Peterson brilliant, hella lobsters, Jamie pull that up, etc etc.




Appreciate the clarification, it was difficult to suss out exactly what he was doing at the time
seem to recall him also being convinced that the Shroomery would be his entrance point to fame via youtube because we provide a dedicated audience to his content already
so was under the impression the megalomania was having to do with get rich quick ideas
but now that you mention it, he was pretty explicit in terms of arguing for the actual quality of the music
while my memory was more of him focusing on Slipknot and Psychosocial being example of well constructed music

:cheers:


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InvisibleBurke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26367464 - 12/07/19 05:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Good times in the pub.  :patlal:

:cheers:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
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Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: lowbrow]
    #26368254 - 12/08/19 02:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
His book was honestly the most boring peace of garbage I've ever purchased. He should have called his book common sense for stupid people. He's interesting to watch but he's also kind of a idiot. When ever someone asks him a question like do you believe in god he'll just rant for 30 min without answering the f--king question lol. He knows religion is man made but he won't say it because he'll lose half of his fans.




That's the drawback with these types of intellectuals; McKenna was EXACTLY the same way; when he talks about psyhcs, he's spot the fuck on. The second he leaves that lane and starts waxing and waning about THEORY he loses it. Peterson is the same way.

I lol'd at your last sentence because it's true.


Quote:

lowbrow said:
Jordan Peterson’s self help info is pretty good but it feels like it’s repackaged general knowledge.  His college psychology class videos, however are where he really shines.  He knows alot about how the mind works and his classes are very informative.  He goes into everything from Carl Jung to Nietzsche. 

  His interviews are also rather fun because he walks right into the wolf’s den and smacks them right on the nose.

He does get a bad rap from the woke crowd.




Definitely, just as I said above. When he stays in his lane he's awesome. His books almost feel like a different person vs his lectures.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26368677 - 12/08/19 09:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't understand why people are outraged at this guy.  If you listen to wht he says, it makes sense. It's logical, scientifically accurate and relevant.

Evidently these three things are the most outragous things ever. Especially scientific accuracy.  Because when science doesn't line up with your feelings, it's the end of the world.


--------------------


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Patlal]
    #26368707 - 12/08/19 09:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
...
Evidently these three things are the most outragous things ever. Especially scientific accuracy.  Because when science doesn't line up with your feelings, it's the end of the world.





Is this referring to the people who melt down and revert to 3rd grade biology as their base point because they don't like that trans people are a reality?


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
    #26368746 - 12/08/19 10:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
...
Evidently these three things are the most outragous things ever. Especially scientific accuracy.  Because when science doesn't line up with your feelings, it's the end of the world.





Is this referring to the people who melt down and revert to 3rd grade biology as their base point because they don't like that trans people are a reality?




People who melt down, yes.

I didn't say anything about trans people...


--------------------


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Patlal]
    #26368754 - 12/08/19 10:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
...
Evidently these three things are the most outragous things ever. Especially scientific accuracy.  Because when science doesn't line up with your feelings, it's the end of the world.





Is this referring to the people who melt down and revert to 3rd grade biology as their base point because they don't like that trans people are a reality?




People who melt down, yes.

I didn't say anything about trans people...




You didn't, he does
you just mentioned science, which seemed to indicate you did not take an interest in his extensive work on religious iconography


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
    #26368766 - 12/08/19 10:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
...
Evidently these three things are the most outragous things ever. Especially scientific accuracy.  Because when science doesn't line up with your feelings, it's the end of the world.





Is this referring to the people who melt down and revert to 3rd grade biology as their base point because they don't like that trans people are a reality?




People who melt down, yes.

I didn't say anything about trans people...




You didn't, he does
you just mentioned science, which seemed to indicate you did not take an interest in his extensive work on religious iconography




Well, here's my own personal thought on trans people:

- If you're a guy and feel like a woman, great
- If you're a guy and take hormones to transition, fine
- If you're a guy and get the surgery done, fine

It's your body.

But if that guy starts saying that he IS a woman....  Well, biology says no to that.  You have theright to feel that way and believe it as much as you want.  Changed your name, switch up the pronouns or any other thing to make you equal and respected in society.  But you were born male.  It's scientific fact.  Can you handle scientific fact?


--------------------


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Patlal] * 4
    #26368787 - 12/08/19 10:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
...Can you handle scientific fact?




Sure, how about you?

Quote:

Antiscientific sentiment bombards our politics, or so says the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW). Chief among these antiscientific sentiments, the IDW cites the rising visibility of transgender civil rights demands. To the IDW, trans people and their advocates are destroying the pillars of our society with such free-speech–suppressing, postmodern concepts as: “trans women are women,” “gender-neutral pronouns,” or “there are more than two genders.” Asserting “basic biology” will not be ignored, the IDW proclaims. “Facts don’t care about your feelings.”

The irony in all this is that these “protectors of enlightenment” are guilty of the very behavior this phrase derides. Though often dismissed as just a fringe internet movement, they espouse unscientific claims that have infected our politics and culture. Especially alarming is that these “intellectual” assertions are used by nonscientists to claim a scientific basis for the dehumanization of trans people. The real world consequences are stacking up: the trans military ban, bathroom bills, and removal of workplace and medical discrimination protections, a 41-51 percent suicide attempt rate and targeted fatal violence . It’s not just internet trolling anymore.

Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”



Quote:

BIOLOGICAL SEX: HOW YOU GET IT

Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.

A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*

Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.

And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.

There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.



Quote:

THE BRAIN: WHERE STUFF GETS “MADE UP”

When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.

Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.

It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.



Quote:

THE BODY AND THE BRAIN AND THE HORMONES BETWIXT

As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”

For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.

Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.



Quote:

SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER

While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality.

Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact.



https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Quote:

“It’s All in Your Head” – Except When It’s Not

Sex determination – the way we are “coded” into a biological sex – is complicated in and of itself. There are far more options than just “male” or “female,” and countless instances of species that can actually transition from one sex to another within a single lifetime. With most mammals, however, the majority of individuals are cisgender male or female; transgender individuals are estimated to comprise about 0.3% of the adult U.S. population.

Little is known about the causes of transsexuality, and many of the studies that have been conducted – particularly psychological studies – have since been widely discredited (more on that later). However, scientists do seem to have some information on the biological basis of several factors.

First and foremost, is gender identity genetic? It seems the answer is yes – though, as with most traits involving identity, there is some environmental influence. One classic way for scientists to test whether a trait (which can be any characteristic from red hair to cancer susceptibility to love of horror movies) is influenced by genetics is twin studies. Identical twins have the exact same genetic background, and are usually raised in the same environment. Fraternal (nonidentical) twins, however, share only half their genes, but tend to also be raised in the same environment. Thus, if identical twins tend to share a trait more than fraternal twins, that trait is probably influenced by genetics. Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity. So, what genes might be responsible?

Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men. These differences remained even after the scientists took into account the fact that many transgender men and women in their study were taking estrogen and testosterone during their transition by including cisgender men and women who were also on hormones not corresponding to their assigned biological sex (for a variety of medical reasons). These findings have since been confirmed and corroborated in other studies and other regions of the brain, including a region of the brain called the sexually dimorphic nucleus (Figure 2) that is believed to affect sexual behavior in animals.

It has been conclusively shown that hormone treatment can vastly affect the structure and composition of the brain; thus, several teams sought to characterize the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undergone hormone treatment. Several studies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned.




http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/


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Invisiblecannabinated
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside Flag
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
    #26368790 - 12/08/19 10:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

burn


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes
Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
    #26368862 - 12/08/19 11:22 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
...Can you handle scientific fact?




Sure, how about you?

Quote:

Antiscientific sentiment bombards our politics, or so says the Intellectual Dark Web (IDW). Chief among these antiscientific sentiments, the IDW cites the rising visibility of transgender civil rights demands. To the IDW, trans people and their advocates are destroying the pillars of our society with such free-speech–suppressing, postmodern concepts as: “trans women are women,” “gender-neutral pronouns,” or “there are more than two genders.” Asserting “basic biology” will not be ignored, the IDW proclaims. “Facts don’t care about your feelings.”

The irony in all this is that these “protectors of enlightenment” are guilty of the very behavior this phrase derides. Though often dismissed as just a fringe internet movement, they espouse unscientific claims that have infected our politics and culture. Especially alarming is that these “intellectual” assertions are used by nonscientists to claim a scientific basis for the dehumanization of trans people. The real world consequences are stacking up: the trans military ban, bathroom bills, and removal of workplace and medical discrimination protections, a 41-51 percent suicide attempt rate and targeted fatal violence . It’s not just internet trolling anymore.

Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”



Quote:

BIOLOGICAL SEX: HOW YOU GET IT

Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.

Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.

A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*

Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.

And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.

There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.



Quote:

THE BRAIN: WHERE STUFF GETS “MADE UP”

When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.

Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.

It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.



Quote:

THE BODY AND THE BRAIN AND THE HORMONES BETWIXT

As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”

For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.

Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.



Quote:

SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER

While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality.

Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact.



https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Quote:

“It’s All in Your Head” – Except When It’s Not

Sex determination – the way we are “coded” into a biological sex – is complicated in and of itself. There are far more options than just “male” or “female,” and countless instances of species that can actually transition from one sex to another within a single lifetime. With most mammals, however, the majority of individuals are cisgender male or female; transgender individuals are estimated to comprise about 0.3% of the adult U.S. population.

Little is known about the causes of transsexuality, and many of the studies that have been conducted – particularly psychological studies – have since been widely discredited (more on that later). However, scientists do seem to have some information on the biological basis of several factors.

First and foremost, is gender identity genetic? It seems the answer is yes – though, as with most traits involving identity, there is some environmental influence. One classic way for scientists to test whether a trait (which can be any characteristic from red hair to cancer susceptibility to love of horror movies) is influenced by genetics is twin studies. Identical twins have the exact same genetic background, and are usually raised in the same environment. Fraternal (nonidentical) twins, however, share only half their genes, but tend to also be raised in the same environment. Thus, if identical twins tend to share a trait more than fraternal twins, that trait is probably influenced by genetics. Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity. So, what genes might be responsible?

Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men. These differences remained even after the scientists took into account the fact that many transgender men and women in their study were taking estrogen and testosterone during their transition by including cisgender men and women who were also on hormones not corresponding to their assigned biological sex (for a variety of medical reasons). These findings have since been confirmed and corroborated in other studies and other regions of the brain, including a region of the brain called the sexually dimorphic nucleus (Figure 2) that is believed to affect sexual behavior in animals.

It has been conclusively shown that hormone treatment can vastly affect the structure and composition of the brain; thus, several teams sought to characterize the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undergone hormone treatment. Several studies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned.



http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/





That is some amazing info. Way too detailed for my understanding but from what I gathered it pretty much says that transgendered people exist with a lot of imperical evidence to prove it.

I'm not at all questioning any of that. 

However (and I hate how simple this is going to sound).

Can trans woman get pregnant?  Can a trans man produce sperm?

What counts at the end of the day is the reproduction.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26368890 - 12/08/19 11:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
...
That is some amazing info. Way too detailed for my understanding but from what I gathered it pretty much says that transgendered people exist with a lot of imperical evidence to prove it.

I'm not at all questioning any of that. 

However (and I hate how simple this is going to sound).

Can trans woman get pregnant?  Can a trans man produce sperm?

What counts at the end of the day is the reproduction.




Advanced Science: sexual and gender spectrums are not actually binary, and bigger than simply what impacts reproduction

Patlal: that's too complex for me, what really matters is what impacts reproduction in a binary way

:hug:
respect what you are trying to get at with the traditional Darwinistic perception of biological diversity and evolution
but science is moving onward in these studies as more data becomes more readily available to us

such anomalies in sexual dimorphism and expressions also exist in the animal world
it advances the understanding of evolutionary niches when it happens in lions
which may potentially be advantageous for the pride to have additional hunters with increased muscle mass and agression
while adapting to difficult population-management conditions like shrinking habitats

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2106866-five-wild-lionesses-grow-a-mane-and-start-acting-like-males/
Quote:

Five lionesses in Botswana have grown a mane and are showing male-like behaviours. One is even roaring and mounting other females.

Male lions are distinguished by their mane, which they use to attract females, and they roar to protect their territory or call upon members of their pride. Females lack a mane and are not as vocal.

But sometimes lionesses grow a mane and even behave a bit like males. However, until now, reports of such maned lionesses have been extremely rare and largely anecdotal. We knew they existed, but little about how they behave.

Now, Geoffrey D. Gilfillan at the University of Sussex in Falmer, UK, and colleagues have reported five lionesses sporting a mane at the Moremi Game Reserve in Botswana’s Okavango delta.



Quote:

“I don’t think this is anything to be concerned about,” says Hunter. “Although the females are apparently infertile, they otherwise appear to live long, healthy lives. And from a conservation perspective, there is nothing to suggest the pattern is increasing or will ever be anything more than a rare, local phenomenon.”

No one seems to be studying the exact genetic and hormonal causes of this phenomenon at the moment. “I guess there are just one or a few genes altered,” says Vincent Savolainen at Imperial College London, who had a student briefly work on the possible causes. “I believe some masculinised genes have been documented in domesticated cats – it would be good to look into this, especially given that the cat genome is available as reference.”

Could the masculinised females in fact be a boon to the pride when it comes to competing with other prides? It’s possible, it seems.

Gilfillan says he once saw SaF05 bring down a zebra. “A neighbouring pride stole the zebra from SaF05, but in return SaF05 killed two of their cubs.”

Cub-killing behaviour is rare in females but common in males.




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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
    #26369184 - 12/08/19 02:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

not Jordan Peterson
but another University Lecture that is a longtime favourite of mine
that may be interesting to you (Pat, or anyone else reading along)

this is labeled as the biological underpinnings of religiosity, and is certainly an accurate title

but one of the particularly intersting points he draws upon a lot in this lecture
is the idea that statistically "obscure" diseases that have no apparent evolutionary advantage (in the case of the lecture; Schizophrenia, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder)
and should have logically and scientifically been bred out of the human species on that basis
are actually perpetuated because individuals who express less severe cases of the same symptoms, at a higher percent of the population
function in an advantageous way in social structures -- most frequently as shamans or religious leaders in past societies
but an example is that Obsessive Compulsive Disorder ruins lives; but slight obsessive compulsive tendencies may, for instance, tend you towards thorough book learning that facillitates entry into a quality university

this is not me saying that being trans is a disease, tho fully aware that a number of people already hold such a framework and may adapt to this lense more readily
but is does provide an interesting view into anomalous developments in the human species that do not necessarily seem to line up with standard beliefs of evolution and species development



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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
    #26369228 - 12/08/19 02:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Jordan Peterson gets cucked with facts and logic



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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: cannabinated]
    #26369462 - 12/08/19 04:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cannabinated said:
burn



No.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26369471 - 12/08/19 04:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Jordan Peterson gets cucked with facts and logic





Maybe you should read his book.  I hear it helps incels with the ladies.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: lowbrow]
    #26369478 - 12/08/19 05:02 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Theres no need if Peterson can't hold his own debating I have no desire to read or purchase his book.


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26369836 - 12/08/19 09:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Theres no need if Peterson can't hold his own debating I have no desire to read or purchase his book.




So did you even watch this video? Matt and Jordan had a nice discussion along the lines of ‘change my mind’ but there was no intellectual cucking by either side. 

Go ahead and read his book.  The worst that could happen is that he could get you laid.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Invisiblevault123
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Burke Dennings]
    #26369995 - 12/08/19 11:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No one will ever be as smart as you Burke!


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie


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