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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: If a brilliant mathematician visits hookers, hates Asians, and believes in UFO's, do you deny their mathematical conclusions? If Pythagoras had a large harem of 10 year old boys, should that fact play any part of evaluating the accuracy of his theorem?
This is PRECISELY my point after - just today - realising the vitriol people have for this person. Jesus Christ there are some fucking bastards out there - and not one of us - comes without red flags by our (honest) name.
For fucks sake can we not separate a human - who suffers like all the rest of us - from one who offers GOOD lessons from one who offers BAD lessons?????
If you don't know Marcus Auralias' teachings - and any of you here who feel you're fit to judge Peterson, should - then you'll know that philosophers, be they 20 or 200 or 2000 years apart, basically teach us the same thing; that philosophy is just spelling out a truth we all know deep down when we read/see/hear it. The human condition is the human condition, and our cultural programming makes us focus on the differences, not the similarities. We are FAR, FAR, FAR, more similar than the vast majority of us (especially the 'special' ones) can accept.
The people who seem to disagree with him - IMO - are the 'I'm a special snowflake' types we've discussed in other threads.
Somebody prove me wrong, FFS.,
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Socrateshroom said:
His message, said a billion ways is, something akin to,
Fix yourself before you try to fix the world
It's hard to argue with such wisdom, in a time when most people blame their problems and unhappiness on things outside of themselves. The perspective that we are our own worst enemy has been preached by a myriad of people during the course of human history, such as the ancient Greek philosophers. It's a pretty simple idea - that we disturb ourselves in many ways and create much of the emotional distress we experience. Most people prefer to point the finger of blame than look at themselves honestly. We should call this period in human history "The Age of Victimhood".
I've seen all his lectures, read all his books. A lot of what he says is hype and retreaded ground, but the essence of the above quotation about fixing yourself first is the single-most powerful and beneficial piece of advice he gives...
...and 9/10 people will STILL ignore that and look for the panacea, lol.
As others have said his books could easily be 1/3 the length, and his tone is rather droning honestly. A lot of his metaphysics are contradictory however - that's something I noticed. He'll claim X as a foundation then use Y without batting an eye and cross his own logic. He does it all the time in his book comparing lobsters to humans. For everything two things he correctly asserts, I'd say on average he's a little off the mark on one.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: I've seen all his lectures
I've always respected what you've said LS. Why does this jarr me so?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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When I say that what I mean is I've seen essentially everything he has on YouTube, which may or may not be the best representation of his work.
I do own and have read his books if that's more credence, JSB.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 54 minutes, 36 seconds
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^^ cult member
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26366194 - 12/07/19 02:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Peterson or myself? I'm definitely not a Peterson mark my man, lol. The more time that passes the less I resonate with his messages, other than that above quote which is solid regardless IMHO.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 54 minutes, 36 seconds
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But you recognize there is a mark
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: koods]
#26366233 - 12/07/19 03:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I got you. There is definitely a weird incel-like cult around his material. Maybe that's where I'm subconsciously feeling a disconnect with him. A lot of people are spot on in their critiques of his work in this thread.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
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You can make a thread critiquing pretty much anyone and "destroy" them.
Peterson said some inteteresting stuff on a podcast I listened to, so I tuned into what he was putting out and got some stuff out of it. I don't think you have to judge someone as a person or agree with them on everything to resonate with what they say, in that case almost all literature would be moot because no author is perfect
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pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: feevers] 3
#26366874 - 12/07/19 12:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've also watched a lot of JP interviews, lectures and read some of his stuff. Initially I was on board until I realized how easily it all falls apart.
I have big issues with his brand of self-help totally aside from his personal issues - which are definitely relevant because he seems to have been a total mess in his own personal life while actively touring the country, giving interviews, and charging money for personal consultations on how to get your life together - when his own philosophy didn't even work for himself.
This kind of self help looks good at a casual glance because its stuff your average, privileged person can start enacting right now, and feel like they are starting to get their life together. But in reality, his philosophy doesn't offer much real help to those in less privileged situations or more serious problems. What about people with mental or physical disabilities which this kind of philosophy entirely ignores. Its also the kind of self help that makes good money for the author because it is so easy - but the reality is that changing big problems is never easy.
To make this point easier to understand, look at the popular show Queer Eye on netflix - its a great, feel-good show about helping people get their lives together, but ultimately the messages are to buy a bunch of new stuff, fix your house up, make yourself look better (by buying new clothes, care products, going to the dentist, gym, etc) - basically by doing a bunch of semi-superficial shit that costs money. A lot of this stuff will help your daily mental state while living in this kind of society, but what about the people who have all these problems largely because they can't afford to do all this stuff to "fix their lives" ? They're just shit out of luck?
Peterson's self-help is very similar - surface level stuff that doesn't really go to the root of the kinds of societal issues that are causing people to be disconnected from their self, and disconnected from each other.
This self help is reactionary, seeking to keep the system in tact which has created the problems in the first place.
Actually helpful philosophy would be more revolutionary, providing radical change, rather than reactionary.
Boomer watching Peterson interview:
Edited by pixelpopper (12/07/19 01:05 PM)
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pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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And another point I'll add is that JP is the kind of self help that people who have never actually experienced real deal hard shit just love, because it allows them to feel good about themselves while continuing to ignore the problems around them. Someone has some serious problems? Just give 'em a JP book.. here ya go man! Problem solved! Fix your shit! See ya later dude!
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Quote:
pixelpopper said: I've also watched a lot of JP interviews, lectures and read some of his stuff. Initially I was on board until I realized how easily it all falls apart.
I have big issues with his brand of self-help totally aside from his personal issues - which are definitely relevant because he seems to have been a total mess in his own personal life while actively touring the country, giving interviews, and charging money for personal consultations on how to get your life together - when his own philosophy didn't even work for himself.
This kind of self help looks good at a casual glance because its stuff your average, privileged person can start enacting right now, and feel like they are starting to get their life together. But in reality, his philosophy doesn't offer much real help to those in less privileged situations or more serious problems. What about people with mental or physical disabilities which this kind of philosophy entirely ignores. Its also the kind of self help that makes good money for the author because it is so easy - but the reality is that changing big problems is never easy.
To make this point easier to understand, look at the popular show Queer Eye on netflix - its a great, feel-good show about helping people get their lives together, but ultimately the messages are to buy a bunch of new stuff, fix your house up, make yourself look better (by buying new clothes, care products, going to the dentist, gym, etc) - basically by doing a bunch of semi-superficial shit that costs money. A lot of this stuff will help your daily mental state while living in this kind of society, but what about the people who have all these problems largely because they can't afford to do all this stuff to "fix their lives" ? They're just shit out of luck?
Peterson's self-help is very similar - surface level stuff that doesn't really go to the root of the kinds of societal issues that are causing people to be disconnected from their self, and disconnected from each other.
This self help is reactionary, seeking to keep the system in tact which has created the problems in the first place.
Actually helpful philosophy would be more revolutionary, providing radical change, rather than reactionary.
Boomer watching Peterson interview: 
I agree with a lot of what you said about surface level solutions. That's all that sells; feel good personal development. Consistent action to create better habits is where the real work comes in but that's not as fun as reading a book and feeling good NOW. I agree with that.
However...(and being this is a JP thread I feel it's appropriate):
Quote:
pixelpopper said: And another point I'll add is that JP is the kind of self help that people who have never actually experienced real deal hard shit just love, because it allows them to feel good about themselves while continuing to ignore the problems around them. Someone has some serious problems? Just give 'em a JP book.. here ya go man! Problem solved! Fix your shit! See ya later dude!
Not trying to push any buttons my brother but it sounds like you may be holding some contempt and projecting something here? I sense anger (probably justified) within you. How do you qualify "real deal hard shit"? Versus what, your personal definition of what may or may not constitute love for someone else?
How can you differentiate between the severity of other people's (strangers) problems and needs, or how much any given book or guide will help and apply to them? How do you even know what problems other people may or may not have in the first place? That's a HUGE indirect claim for some serious foreknowledge, my dude! If you have this ability TEACH ME!
What's your definition of privilege? I see lots of people on this site (not you) bitching about said term yet have full access to the internet, usually from a cell phone. Information and technology are leveling the playing field for a lot of stuff regardless of socioeconomics. We can say this without denying inequality still exists.
It sounds like you're talking out loud in an attempt to justify a deep issue (which we all have), which JP's methods may have triggered (actual correct use of the term) for your own personal demons. JP may have prodded your sleeping dragon (that bastard)!
Again serious introspection question meant to help not aggravate. PM if needed   .
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 4 hours, 39 minutes
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I just watched Peterson on Rogan again, The man is brilliant.
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cannabinated


Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Patlal]
#26367330 - 12/07/19 04:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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hot take alert
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Pat has also claimed that Kid Rock is a “musical genius”.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 54 minutes, 36 seconds
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I bet he likes Don Cherry
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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lowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!


Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 9,662
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
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Jordan Peterson’s self help info is pretty good but it feels like it’s repackaged general knowledge. His college psychology class videos, however are where he really shines. He knows alot about how the mind works and his classes are very informative. He goes into everything from Carl Jung to Nietzsche.
His interviews are also rather fun because he walks right into the wolf’s den and smacks them right on the nose.
He does get a bad rap from the woke crowd.
-------------------- Amanita86 said: Sui is trying to mod right now. Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Burke Dennings said: Pat has also claimed that Kid Rock is a “musical genius”.

If my comprehension of his point at the time and my recollection of that time are both correct
seem to recall that his position was not that he was a genius in terms of making music but a genius at marketing himself through music to a huge demographic in the US in order to get rich off them
do not want to speak for Pat, he can come back and clarify with regards to both points himself
but the implication may be that Peterson going on Joe Rogan's podcast, which has an enormous audience and talking for a few hours about their combined target audience's favourite topics was a huge marketing move in terms of getting more buyers for his products

Quote:
I've said it too many times and I still stand firm You get what you put in and people get what they deserve Still I ain't seen mine, no I ain't seen mine I've been givin', just ain't been gettin' I've been walkin' that there line So I think I'll keep walking with my head held high I keep moving on and only God knows why
:trulyinspirational:
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Shenmue
Dark Lord of the Sith
Registered: 12/21/18
Posts: 2,514
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika]
#26367435 - 12/07/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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His book was honestly the most boring peace of garbage I've ever purchased. He should have called his book common sense for stupid people. He's interesting to watch but he's also kind of a idiot. When ever someone asks him a question like do you believe in god he'll just rant for 30 min without answering the f--king question lol. He knows religion is man made but he won't say it because he'll lose half of his fans.
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Re: Jordan Peterson [Re: Tantrika] 3
#26367447 - 12/07/19 05:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Im generally not one to split hairs, but since you brought it up, I looked into the claims of musical genius.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25319322
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25306870
These are two of Pat’s threads on the subject (there may be more, but he was making a LOT of threads at the time- he was in a bit of a weird headspace). I’ll admit that I didn’t go through these threads very thoroughly, but in the OPs, he talks a lot specifically about the incredible music talent of Kid Rock. He does once mention that Kid is “super business minded”, but offers no further thoughts on the subject or elucidation, mentioning nothing about marketing to Americans or Canadians, but I’ll concede that Kid Rock’s representation team has done a good enough job. I think he just really liked the music. 
But to bring it back on topic, Jordan Peterson brilliant, hella lobsters, Jamie pull that up, etc etc.
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