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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360693 - 12/04/19 09:23 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So, the government has no business helping those that, through a cruel twist of fate, were born into unfortunate circumstances? Not even to hand out free bootstraps?



Government funds going towards the support of citizens is a pretty incomparable dynamic to the government confiscating funds from families because it was technically earned through their parents work rather than their own, wouldn't you say


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 1
    #26360695 - 12/04/19 09:24 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
I don't know why you would insist on trying to twist my sentence, even after I have told you what I said is "in some form of communism". What I mean by that is that it is inheriting some traits from it eventually.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Why do you want to disregard it just because it's from Africa or you have a lack of knowledge about the continent?

In any case, you are missing the point of my post and choose to fixate on one small part.
The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.




I didn't twist your sentences. I wanted you to give an example of what you stated to be a general rule, that took place in Europe, Asia, or North and South America because I have studied the political history in those continents for decades. 

You made a statement that you obviously can not support. If it only applies to some parts of Africa you should have said that to begin with and I wouldn't be calling you out on it. Like many new posters here, you need to learn that people will respond by telling you to back up what you said. In your original post you made a distinction  between socialism and communism. Just now you said they are both flawed systems that has been proven without exception. As it applies to socialism, that is nonsense.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #26360710 - 12/04/19 09:34 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not suggesting that we could eliminate every source of opportunity inequality.  We could limit inheritance though.
maybe 1.5 million isn't the right number.  I feel that could be debated.  What should be obvious to anyone is that unchecked generational wealth can only lead to a greater and greater disparity between the opportunity afforded those lucky enough to get rich the old fashioned way and everyone else, regardless of talent, skill, elbow grease or anything else.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360711 - 12/04/19 09:35 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So, the government has no business helping those that, through a cruel twist of fate, were born into unfortunate circumstances? Not even to hand out free bootstraps?



Government funds going towards the support of citizens is a pretty incomparable dynamic to the government confiscating funds from families because it was technically earned through their parents work rather than their own, wouldn't you say




Yes, and I think your ant colony example was also pretty off-topic. If anything, based on your followup, I think you're either arguing that compounding family wealth is not only good, but it would be permissible for someone to use their family wealth to financially destroy rivals and leave them destitute. Or you're talking about banning war between ant colonies.

Either way, do you have a problem with wealth compounding through generations? Because you seem to argue both yes and no pretty consistently.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360736 - 12/04/19 09:49 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It was pointing out that it is a natural fact of a living thing that sometimes you're born into a pretty comfy situation, sometimes you're born into shit, and it has nothing to do feudalism or capitalism or anything. It is just an unavoidable fact of life.

Also,
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think you're either arguing that compounding familywealth is not only good, but it would be permissible for someone to use their family wealth to financially destroy rivals and leave them destitute. Or you're talking about banning war between ant colonies



Wtf are you talking about lol. Im beginning to think your levels of mental stability are not sound enough for me to continue responding


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360739 - 12/04/19 09:51 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, it is definitely a problem. One that is probably pretty impossible to tackle with any degree of efficiency or cut-and-dry morality, but a problem nonetheless. I was caught up in the feudalism and dystopia thing. I think both those comparisons were just ridiculous. Then again, Im the one who mentioned dystopian societies iirc lol


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360771 - 12/04/19 10:09 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This begs the question of what is 'socialism'?

Hard core capitalists like to call the European model 'socialism', but many economists reject that.

I thought socialism is where the people of a country own all the means of production, and if that is privately owned it's not really socialism?




Orthodox Marxism of the 19th and early 20th century had clear definitions but I don't know of anyone who has defined socialism that way for 50 years. Marx did define socialism as public ownership of the means of production, and communism as the ideal state that followed which was marked by "the withering away of the state". The latter is now viewed as being as realistic as believing in heaven.

I think we all agree that every society has a mixed economy. Even Lenin did business with American industrialist Armand Hammer. Current definitions define capitalism and socialism by the private/public mix, which is about the same thing as competitiveness/cooperation mix.  Where attempts at socialism have worked best public ownership of the means of production has focused on social welfare.

There is no true socialism, communism or capitalism.

In modern times communism is viewed as a tendency toward totalitarianism and socialism a tendency toward democracy. I think we also agree that capitalism, at it's best, has only a tendency toward democracy.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26361314 - 12/04/19 03:40 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?



Yes, you are wrong.  A lot of your heroic explorers were basically fugitives from the law.  Cortes didn't burn his ships to discourage cowardice.  He burned his ships because he didn't want the authorities to track him down.  I forget whether it was him or Pizarro who was on the run from the governor of Cuba though...

There was also a lot of (Christian) hatred of the infidel involved.  A big, huge motivator in European exploration was to make contact with legendary, lost Christian kingdoms.  And there wasn't really much in the way of allegiance to a nation among Europeans back then.  Monarchs were more like provincial authorities who you were forced to deal with on a case by case basis.



Mmm.. I do subscribe to the notion that Cortes destroyed his ships (except for one, you're forgetting, which was sent directly back to King Charles rather than Velasquez, his superior) in order to discourage his men from sailing back to Cuba rather than go through with a conquest of the Aztecs. He wanted to found his own colony in order to get out from under the rule of Governor Velasquez. Which brings me to the point of him being "just a fugitive" which is a bit of misrepresentation. He was given direct orders by the Governor of Cuba to conquer Mexico and at the absolute last second, the order was revoked due to their petty beef. He ignored this and went anyway. So, yes, illegal, and yes, on the run from the law, but the expedition was not some fugitive escape plan. It was just performing a military order despite it being revoked last minute.

Now back to the ships. Cortes' plan was to march inland. His path was very wiggly and through very rough terrain, so the location of his landed ships would've been pretty inconsequential to his discovery by Spanish forces, which he very well was expecting have to fight eventually once they caught up with him, which was pretty inevitable. So it was really the opposite reason that he destroyed them. It wasn't to evade the authorities, it was because he knew he would have to face the authorities, and knew it would be a hard sell to get his men to stick around if they had to fight their own countrymen before a reckless invasion of an alien empire.

Which brings me to the national identity. You are confused. At that time there certainly WAS a feeling of national identity that was in contrast to the middle ages. After the Treaty of Westphalia, which was entire generations before colonialism even began, national identities became to develop more and more, and the concept of what is closer to our modern idea of a nation state is, was formed. Monarchs were not "provincial authorities". They were the rulers of nations.



Cortes died a full century before the Treaty of Westphalia.

Mexico wasn't an unexplored wilderness, and there were already Spaniards living there and intermingling with the natives.  That's why Cortes's path was so wiggly.  They weren't trapsing through wilderness as much as they were moving from point of contact to point of contact and sort of being steered by (indigenous, more or less) people who basically wanted help breaking up the Aztecs' dominion.  Cortes wasn't really on a mission to conquer Mexico as much as he was more or less on a quest with some nebulous goal of discovering treasure in mind.  It was a popular thing to do back then, especially if you were basically just a criminal who wanted to increase your social standing.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos] * 1
    #26361380 - 12/04/19 04:25 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

"Those who can convince you of absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"

-voltaire.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26361392 - 12/04/19 04:29 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I would argue History is probably one of the most expansive things you could ever learn.

I have always been more interested in post industrial history than anything else.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/04/19 04:35 PM)


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26361404 - 12/04/19 04:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Cortes died a full century before the Treaty of Westphalia.




Shit you are totally right about that, I was thinking 1400s some reason


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26361534 - 12/04/19 05:43 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26361667 - 12/04/19 07:10 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

There were no H-bombs used in Japan.  Both of those were straight-up fission bombs.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26361864 - 12/04/19 09:22 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I stand corrected. H to A.
In any event we were itching to use it.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26361883 - 12/04/19 09:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It easy to say things like "under mao millions have died". And for the most part... conservatives do. Like... a lot.

But what if you looked at America from the same futuristic, non-personally intertwined perspective? Started constant wars? Created nonstop famine and warzones through its own trade practices. The treatment of the mentally ill. Allowed some to starve to death in a land of such incredible wealth. Allowed deaths and pain/suffering in those unable to afford healthcare. Nuked 2 whole cities.

I'm not saying its the same as starvation of millions... I just think saying that shouldnt alone discount an ideology. Every ideology that has existed by definition has failed.


And then you look at capitalism vs socialism. America and most countries are a combination of both. It is to what degree towards socialism that we debate. For some bizarre reason in America ... healthcare is the battleground. Healthcare for some reason is evil socialism. Evil Stalin coming to destroy our civilization as we know it!!!! They said the same exact bullshit about legalizing weed and gay marriage.


No matter what the change is.... corporate types are ready to tell you its the end of the world if we make that change.




Personally I think the problem with capitalism is the slow take over by big money interests. I think every 5-10 years everyone in power should be removed and elect new middle class people.

Hell take money completely out of politics force everyone who wants to be in office to be broke.

If we were SERIOUS about making a good fucking country.... youd have to have 0 dollars to your name when you took office. But the HUMANITY! Taking away someones MONEY?!?!?! My god!!!!


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26362107 - 12/05/19 12:52 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

LRK said:
I don't know why you would insist on trying to twist my sentence, even after I have told you what I said is "in some form of communism". What I mean by that is that it is inheriting some traits from it eventually.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Why do you want to disregard it just because it's from Africa or you have a lack of knowledge about the continent?

In any case, you are missing the point of my post and choose to fixate on one small part.
The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.




I didn't twist your sentences. I wanted you to give an example of what you stated to be a general rule, that took place in Europe, Asia, or North and South America because I have studied the political history in those continents for decades. 

You made a statement that you obviously can not support. If it only applies to some parts of Africa you should have said that to begin with and I wouldn't be calling you out on it. Like many new posters here, you need to learn that people will respond by telling you to back up what you said. In your original post you made a distinction  between socialism and communism. Just now you said they are both flawed systems that has been proven without exception. As it applies to socialism, that is nonsense.




Brian, I take no offense and don't see it as being called out, I am open for discussion. This is how we learn and evolve our thinking.

Firstly I think I made less of a distinction and more of an analogy between socialism and communism.

What would you consider China's model to be?
They claim they are a socialist country with Chinese characteristics.
But are they really socialist or communist?
Heck they even have privately owned companies does this make them capitalists?

The point is it is difficult to assign one model to a specific country but it has been shown over the years that countries that adopt the more socialist/communist models fail (Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela to name a few).

Even Lenin said "The Goal of Socialism is Communism". :smile:

The Nordic countries were successful before they built their welfare states.
This allowed the governments to have generous programs.
It was not because of the government benefits that wealth was built.
The governments also don't interfere with free markets.
There are more facts like this which make the Nordic countries bad examples of successful "socialist" countries.


Edited by LRK (12/05/19 12:55 AM)


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26362117 - 12/05/19 01:02 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

What country would you say "Did it best"? and why?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26362206 - 12/05/19 03:50 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



This ignorant perspective explains a great deal of your post history lol, specifically regarding the military.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26362671 - 12/05/19 10:11 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Rename the thread Let’s Talk Socialism


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26362768 - 12/05/19 10:59 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



This ignorant perspective explains a great deal of your post history lol, specifically regarding the military.




The H bomb in Japan LOL. You're off by seven years and I don't know how many thousand miles.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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