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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,958
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Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete.
#26362526 - 12/05/19 08:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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To me, its enfuriating its even a thing. Even as a kid I hated it because I found it humiliating to my black buddies.
40 years on, the tide is slowly turning.
WTF people. No more minstrel shows.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Tangich


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 8,723
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Asante]
#26362602 - 12/05/19 09:47 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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The stereotypes in this video are absolutely horrible! Especially that woman at the end.  But seriously, wtf is this? What kind of custom is that supposed to represent?
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,958
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tangich]
#26362608 - 12/05/19 09:50 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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mycosis


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,751
Loc: USSA
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tangich]
#26362615 - 12/05/19 09:51 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I found it to be a slightly crazy tradition when I was there.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,958
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: mycosis]
#26362649 - 12/05/19 10:03 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Heres a good short film on it, from the black POV, with English Subs
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Tangich


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 8,723
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Asante]
#26362679 - 12/05/19 10:13 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Read em and weep:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
I don't care about racism or offensiveness, but that whole tradition seems very silly and arbitrary to the outside observer. But then again, most traditions are. Still, nothing ever changes, hate is a constant in today's human society. Before it was hatred towards other races, today it's hatred towards racist. The subject may seem more "noble", but hate is hate. And you can't exterminate hatred with hatred.
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Nanacatl


Registered: 12/13/16
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tangich]
#26362842 - 12/05/19 11:49 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Haha even on the shroomery Sinterklaas en Zwarte Piet come by!! When I was young we learned zwarte Piet was black because he climbed through the chimney to bring the presents. As a child we didn't make the connection with other races. It's supposed to be a tradition for children and has nothing to do with racism although I can imagine people from outside our country see it like that. In other European countries there are also traditions with Sint-Nicolaas involved only celebrated on a different way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companions_of_Saint_Nicholas
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Nanacatl]
#26363200 - 12/05/19 03:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Zwarte Piet is based on ancient Pagan traditions, and yes those eventually incorporated some colonial elements.
It is however absolutely not the same as the US blackface tradition.
Im sure within a few years the issue will have moved on to not having enough LGBT Pieten and whatnot
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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tomnl
Beginner



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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26363273 - 12/05/19 03:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes its origins is much much older than the time of african slavery trade.
Greets Tomnl
-------------------- Been away so long I hardly knew the place Gee, it's good to be back home Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case Honey disconnect the phone I'm back in the USSA You don't know how lucky you are, boy Back in the US Back in the US Back in the USSA
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mycosis


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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: tomnl] 2
#26363289 - 12/05/19 04:03 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tripsurfer said:
It is however absolutely not the same as the US blackface tradition.
Quote:
tomnl said: Yes its origins is much much older than the time of african slavery trade.
Greets Tomnl
Quote:
Wikipedia said: The character first appeared in an 1850 book by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman. Traditionally, Zwarte Piet is black because he is a Moor from Spain.
Ah yes! It couldn't be in any way racist like the US blackface tradition because we all know the order of the pure heart Dutch had absolutely nothing to do with the slave trade.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Asante]
#26363312 - 12/05/19 04:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
To me, its enfuriating its even a thing. Even as a kid I hated it because I found it humiliating to my black buddies.
40 years on, the tide is slowly turning.
WTF people. No more minstrel shows.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,958
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: tomnl]
#26364160 - 12/06/19 02:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just showing this to show racism is still a problem everywhere, and my own nation is by no means exempt.
It sometimes may seem I have it in for white americans but, that's just because of the demographic.
In my own country I engage into activism to change this hurtful tradition, from a blackface clown towards any type that isn't racially objectionable.
It would be a nice gesture of goodwill at the very least, but its a goodwill most Dutch do not possess.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: mycosis]
#26364172 - 12/06/19 02:57 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wikipedia is not entirely right in this regard
The character of Black Pete as we know him now may have originated relatively recent. But the tradition of making peoples faces black with coal and or paint is a lot older, and can still be seen in various forms in Eastern Europe.
Krampus for example goes around rubbing peoples faces with coal.
Also if your going to quote Wiki quote it correctly
Quote:
Traditionally Zwarte Piet is said to be black because he is a Moor from Spain
Zwarte Piet definietly has some racist elements but its a tradition that has roots going way back. It was not created with the intend to make fun of certain people the way US blackface is
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Asante]
#26364186 - 12/06/19 03:03 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I dont know what you are talking about. Its being changed right?
Personally I dont care one way or another. For me as a child Zwarte Piet was black because he climbed through chimneys 
I take more issue with people using "being offended" as a business model
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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Nanacatl


Registered: 12/13/16
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tripsurfer] 2
#26364275 - 12/06/19 04:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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It almost becomes a trend to being offended these days...
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Tripsurfer
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Nanacatl] 1
#26364287 - 12/06/19 05:19 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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For sure
And the sad thing is, the vast majority of the people Asante is always so adamant about standing up for, would have zero issues with him being executed for his sexual preference.
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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Asante
Mage


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Posts: 86,958
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26364305 - 12/06/19 05:41 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tripsurfer said:
Zwarte Piet definietly has some racist elements
Which is a great reason to change the color of Zwarte Piet and swap his afro wig for a more race neutral one - purely as a gesture of goodwill to the descendants of the slaves in our former colonies who now live in our country and as an endorsement of mutually respectful race relations worldwide.
Many black people rhe world over are ASTONISHED to see the Black Pete phenomenon and not in a good way.
Make Sinterklaas fun for EVERY child and EVERY parent, like the Dutch charity chapter watotonederland.nl did for their kids in Africa:

Zwarte Piet was not invited on that party and they turned Sinterklaas into a costume party for the kids, in the hopes also to incite more generosity in their Dutch sponsors 
You KNOW its a matter of time for Piet to be deracialized. You know the kids will love it EVEN MORE with the fighting gone. You know its good PR for NL the world over to fix this.
Lets deracialize the party and make it a BIGGER party without the strife.
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Asante]
#26364339 - 12/06/19 06:13 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have zero issues with changing the appearance of Zwarte Piet to something more accomodating as is being doen right now on a national level.
There is however a difference between intent and perception of intent. Zwarte Piet is an evolving construct that over time has incorporated certain aspects that are perceived as racist by todays standard. That doesnt mean the entire thing is intended as an insult nor that the people who prefer to hold on to traditions they have known their entire lives are racists.
A lot of people prefer their own cultural heritage over the leftwing globalism pushed by the MSM.
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: Tripsurfer] 2
#26364359 - 12/06/19 06:30 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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IDk I think that you guys cant just throw away centuries of history and tradition just because a small minority of blacks get but hurt about it. I mean it is super racist and hilarious but its not like anyone gives a shit what Holland does anyway you guys are super racist everyone knows it.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


Registered: 11/03/12
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Re: Dec 5 -- Sinterklaasavond - about the blackface of Black Pete. [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#26364371 - 12/06/19 06:38 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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The world is trying to become a community rather than a series of lines and tribes. If they can't get with the program and understand compassion and social brotherhood then it just highlights the kinds of people who'd rather stay divided rather than unite as a species. People these days always want this and this and this.. things must be sacrificed, much like men learn to hold their tongues in social situations for the good of the experience for all. Why this shouldn't apply as a species I don't know. The root word for civilization is "civil." If you can't be civil, what are you/we doing to make this all work?
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