|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction 4
#26361019 - 12/04/19 12:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Lately I've been thinking about how I don't resonate with a lot of the popular ideas around harm reduction in relation to psychedelic usage. It seems to me that these ideas are mostly centered around the idea of using psychedelics to only have good / "positive" feeling, euphoric trips - basically recreational and party dosing. The general sentiment is often along the lines of avoiding tripping if you're in a bad place in life, going through hard times, or don't have your shit together, because it will result in a "bad trip".
But I find these times are generally when psychedelics can have the most impact to produce profound healing in my life. Medicine is needed when you are sick, not when you are healthy.
I'm not against recreational usage by any means, and its good to make people aware that they may be in for an entirely different ride if they take psychedelics under certain circumstances. But it seems some popular proponents of psychedelics have turned this kind of harm reduction into the central message about using psychedelics, and they are missing the bigger picture, which is in my view the most valuable side of psychedelic usage - the potential for healing & integration via the exploration of one's own darkness.
Since some of these figures are very popular, they also produce a large fan base of people that just mindlessly repeat everything they say all over the internet & in real life.
Meanwhile, the roots of these substances are in healing, which requires confronting pain, fear, trauma, and cleansing them via experiencing... not simply having positive-oriented ecstatic experiences.
|
Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,220
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 6 minutes, 44 seconds
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper] 1
#26361047 - 12/04/19 12:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I don't necessarily agree with that as well, it seems rather odd to me trying to manipulate or control a trip to go a certain way, though it is advisable to have an intention going in, and a safe space that will be able to allow you to focus/enact and experience the trip without distraction.
I never understood not tripping when you're in a negative emotional/mindset because that's the only time I ever do, is when I feel stuck or depressed and need help to find a way back to my self. When I'm flowing and happy I never have a desire to dose a psychedelic, it's only when I need help or closure with something going on inside of me. I use them this way medicinally.
I never understood recreational use, because it always ended up in intense realizations/life changing lessons or healing for me every time anyway, I don't see how I could use them for "fun" when "fun" is one of the last things I would call the experience, especially so unpredictable. I may never understand how people can trip and get nothing out of the experience but a good time, maybe i'm just wired differently.
The experience is sacred to me, for the profound healing it can induce, to take that out to the club or a rave for "fun" seems rather odd, that's what micro dosing is for! but largely it is mass ignorance, and people really don't know, and people do actually wake up to the fact of who they are in these environments though not ideal. There is a lot of unconsciousness around psychedelics in general, as the medicines have been vastly forgotten and swept under the rug for many years, it's a good thing they are making their great return.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (12/04/19 01:07 PM)
|
Socrateshroom
сталкер


Registered: 09/05/18
Posts: 1,840
Loc: Westworld
Last seen: 17 days, 11 hours
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Eclipse3130] 1
#26361098 - 12/04/19 01:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You are both absolutely right. Many people wouldn't trip if it didn't have the healing potential that it does. And as you've stated, you take medicine when you are sick not healthy.
I think if you are under extreme duress, it may not be the right time to trip. There is a difference between "I'm stuck and am struggling with depression" and "Anything and everything that bothers me right now will set me off and I may do something very dangerous"
Now I don't think many people ever reach the latter but I would argue that those are the moments when "harm reduction" is vital. But the former is one of the many moments when you indeed should take psychedelics (if that is your personal way to deal with trauma and work through these things). I took them at my lowest and they dug me out. I suspect that if I took them at my highest point, I'd just enjoy the "high" and wouldn't be humbled by their potential.
I think this idea of harm reduction isn't for passionate people like ourselves but simply for the people who are trying random things, i.e will go on to experience mushrooms once or twice and have no real deep interest in it thereafter. People like us who seek the experience are more focused on mitigating literal harm (not putting ourselves in a dangerous environment), working with the substance, and contributing our experiences to the collective knowledge pool of our "community" here.
--------------------
|
LosTresOjos
Humano

Registered: 09/18/18
Posts: 1,347
Loc: Hurling Through Space
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
|
|
The harm reduction is for the newbies but unfortunately we get diddler's. People who say they never take a dose larger than x. And x is usually around an eight. Which is fine but there's sooo much to be experienced beyond those points. The fear takes hold and some people remain stuck.
Even on bad trips I come out floored because of what I witnessed. It's never ordinary. Never boring. Always a thrill. The mushroom is very sacred to me as well but just like I dishonor others sacraments I have to allow mine to be dishonored by others as well.
|
Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: LosTresOjos]
#26361246 - 12/04/19 03:02 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think we are mixing terms? What do you mean by harm reduction?
Harm reduction doesn’t mean avoiding difficult issues. It means avoiding driving vehicles or ending up in jail or a hospital.
To me it’s like: Prob shouldn’t mix the harmalas with the mdma. might try to avoid drinking a 5th of jack while on 20 hbwr seeds. No, don’t eat THOSE mushrooms! First time? You might want to try a lower dose with a sitter.
Are you on any meds?
No, don’t give your cat/dog shrooms.
Etc etc etc
Ugh.... I’m being argumentative and difficult. I just do not see harm reduction as something that is opposed to self discovery.
Think of how many times you prepare everything perfectly for a low dose bliss trip..... and then those super potent monster boomers come on hard and slap the euphoria right out of you.
Not sure confrontation with the dark side needs much encouragement, or that attempting to ONLY have “positive” trips will work out long term.
I guess I am taking issue with the idea that harm reduction is equated to an excuse to avoid deeper and darker journeys.
And maybe that’s your point to, except from the other angle?
*end rambling*
Edit: Socrateshroom, thanks, that makes more sense.
Edited by Shr00mEater (12/04/19 03:06 PM)
|
Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,220
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 6 minutes, 44 seconds
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: LosTresOjos] 1
#26361303 - 12/04/19 03:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LosTresOjos said: The harm reduction is for the newbies but unfortunately we get diddler's. People who say they never take a dose larger than x. And x is usually around an eight. Which is fine but there's sooo much to be experienced beyond those points. The fear takes hold and some people remain stuck.
Even on bad trips I come out floored because of what I witnessed. It's never ordinary. Never boring. Always a thrill. The mushroom is very sacred to me as well but just like I dishonor others sacraments I have to allow mine to be dishonored by others as well.
I think everybody has a dose that works best for them, for me, my curiosity isn't piqued enough to excessively dose myself past what already does me in. Once I hit the timeless place of eternity, or the core of my self - there's really no beyond that.
Sure I could take double a dose that completely obliterates me, but I have no real desire to, sure there is fear but it's the same fear and apprehension the ego produces I experience on any dose.
This is where harm reduction does come in, is there really any point to take massive doses over what does you good because there "might be more to explore" riding the tail of that dragon which is known as the rabbit hole. There's always some psychological risk when taking a dose, better to be safe than sorry. If an 1/8th is a breakthrough therapeutic dose for one person, there really isn't much use of taking 7g unless you have intense curiosity, or rather may scare you away from mushrooms for a long time. If you're breaking through on DMT with 50mg. Is there any point to take 150mg? 300mg?
I agree with there being a dosage framework for each person, microdose, threshold, therapeutic and heroic. I can't fully agree with heroic doses being fully therapeutic though they can bring healing about, they are rather existential, riveting, and unfolding the deeper layers of reality itself. They are for the highly curious and courageous
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (12/04/19 03:55 PM)
|
DJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer


Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26361309 - 12/04/19 03:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Great thought provoking post and replies.
For me, harm reduction is essentially down to the commercial aspects of social media, YouTube, the internet etc. You know what I mean? Otherwise shit gets taken down. No sponsors. No advertisement revenue. Your channels going nowhere.
Cynical old me!
I only ever do 3.5g dried cubensis upwards to approx 8g dried. So I’m always careful. Harm reduction isn’t sissy, when the shit gets real, you need to be safe.
Take care y’all, DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26361493 - 12/04/19 05:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shr00mEater said: I think we are mixing terms? What do you mean by harm reduction?
What I'm referring to is specifically this kind of culture that has developed around psychedelics which seeks to maximize "good trips" and avoid "bad trips" as the primary objective - the way they approach psychedelics as a whole. Its kind of interrelated with "festy" culture where people are doing a lot of these drugs to have a good time.
Like I said, harm reduction is fine as cautionary warnings to those who don't understand what they are getting into, but its been taken beyond warnings and into a mode of operation regarding the usage of psychedelics in general.
An example of what I'm referring to is the youtube channel PsychedSubstance which has almost 2 million subs. Not to bash on the guy, I've enjoyed his videos, but the focus is consistently along these lines. This is a guy who has been making psychedelic videos for years, and one of his newest videos is all about how bad trips are the result of not having your shit together. He doesn't really touch at all on how psychedelics are used to have hard, emotionally strong (bad) trips in order to heal - instead the message is to get your shit together before you trip so you can have a "good trip" instead. And although some of his content does touch on deeper spiritual insights, they all still have this generally goofy character that never conveys anything very serious, to me at least.
It just seems like a very immature view of using psychedelics which is trying to remain immature and hide from the darkness, instead of facing it to learn & grow.
|
Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26361700 - 12/04/19 07:31 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Ahhh, ok, I see.
The psychedsubstance example is a good one. I haven’t watched any of his videos in a few years. I do remember him having a ruff trip awhile back and kinda getting stuck there. I think he even took a break from his channel etc etc
I think I see what LosTresOjos means now when he says “harm reduction is for newbies”, I am here thinking “harm reduction is for everyone” , but for someone who is taking things more seriously, there almost has to be an element of danger involved to get anywhere.
And like you say, there is an idea that we should have a good work week and not fight with our spouse and that’s the only time to trip. Never during actual life events, Yet it is also the psychedelic studies on people with depression, ptsd and end of life that show the most promise.
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26361812 - 12/04/19 08:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The PsychedSubstance guy has recently gone through some things in his personal life and also seems to have started regularly tripping again. Its worth checking out his recent videos if you're interested to see what he's had going on.
Like I said, I don't want to rag on him, its just an example of a large following developing around harm reduction as a primary objective, when to me it is more useful as a note of caution to the inexperienced.
Regarding large vs smaller doses - I think its more about the work one does with whatever dose works for them. For one, the effect of doses are highly individual, and one's ability to go deeper on lighter doses is a kind of skill that increases with experience/practice - its the same as becoming skilled in meditation. The more you practice, the easier it gets.
Additionally, very large doses can sometimes be a kind of bypassing because smaller doses can leave you more in that uncomfortable space where you're exploring anxious emotional energy. A larger dose can catapult you out of this space and into that other place. And sometimes its easier to work on the heavy emotional cleansing in a way that lasts past the trip when you stick to consistent, lower doses.
|
PsyduckMonkey
witch



Registered: 10/12/18
Posts: 273
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26362525 - 12/05/19 08:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
'Shadow work' is magic. It's for witches to do. Being a witch is a decision: 'yes, I want to see beyond the veil of my fears and my limitations, yes, I want to work with forces beyond my control, yes, I'm aware of the risks and I accept them'. We don't push it onto the unprepared. We don't encourage the unprepared to do it. In fact, we go out of our way to tell everyone NOT to do it, unless absolutely certainly sure about it. Going to war is risky, even if it's a war inside your own soul. You may win, but... you know, you may also lose.
There's a big difference between the mindset of 'I'm consciously breaking the rules of safety to further my path, because I know that going against the judgement of crowds is where my path leads', and that of 'yeaaaah everyone told me that the REALLY COOL kids do 30 grams of mushrooms when depressed, I wanna be that COOL too, yay.. OMG Imma gonna die mushrooms made me gay and transsexual and schizophrenic aaaargh'...
Also, there's courage and there's recklessness. It's hard to put into words the difference between the 'bad place' where a high dose can help, and the 'bad place' where it's really a bad idea, but there is a difference.
I have taken shrooms to do shadow work before. I wouldn't do it lightly. Certainly wouldn't do it to earn any creds. If anything, I'd prefer it to be shameful than cred-worthy, for our sake as a community and a movement.
-------------------- Do you believe in the Third Summer of Love?
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
|
|
this all depends on the actual circumstances and person. for instance, if you are building a huge condo you need 600 trucks of concrete and 2 cranes and 40 men minimum over a period of 10 months but to build a great house for a large family 5 trucks of concrete and 4 men and no cranes are required.
you would not want to have all the rest of the men, and cranes, and concrete trucks lined up and wasting time and effort.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 1,322
Loc: Altered States of Europe
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper] 2
#26362591 - 12/05/19 09:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
What I'm referring to is specifically this kind of culture that has developed around psychedelics which seeks to maximize "good trips" and avoid "bad trips" as the primary objective - the way they approach psychedelics as a whole. Its kind of interrelated with "festy" culture where people are doing a lot of these drugs to have a good time.
Like I said, harm reduction is fine as cautionary warnings to those who don't understand what they are getting into, but its been taken beyond warnings and into a mode of operation regarding the usage of psychedelics in general.
I don't think "harm reduction" itself is a problem, like ShrOOmeater says it's mainly intended to avoid *actual* harm where the trip ends in jail or hospital. Also I think it's reasonable to give advice which will help first-time users get a positive experience on a dose which isn't too challenging. First-time users are more likely to have a recreational reason for trying psychedelics, or just a curiosity about them, rather than considering them as 'medicine'. They are also likely to be young, over-confident and may not pay much attention to risk. I think the real aim should be be instill a certain amount of respect for the potential power of a trip.

Quote:
An example of what I'm referring to is the youtube channel PsychedSubstance which has almost 2 million subs
I like PsychedSubstance although I haven't watched his more recent videos, but he is definitely a victim of what DJ Ed said:
Quote:
DJ Ed wrote: For me, harm reduction is essentially down to the commercial aspects of social media, YouTube, the internet etc. You know what I mean? Otherwise shit gets taken down. No sponsors. No advertisement revenue. Your channels going nowhere.
A lot of PsychedSubstance's videos, trip reports e.t.c. got taken down from Youtube, and the channel itself was made less visible in searches, recommendations and so on, which is disastrous if you are trying to make a living off the channel and doing it as a full-time occupation.
This almost certainly explains any over-the-top attitude to harm reduction in his videos. I got the impression he was someone who tripped initially for fun but also out of a somewhat fearless curiosity to try different psychedelics, but like you say he is also open to the more spiritual aspects. I think he's had some quite dark experiences, and talked about them in detail, but these are the kind of videos that got taken down.

One thing I do agree with is that a 'bad trip' (I'm talking about a purely psychological bad trip which basically boils down to anxiety and other negative emotions) is not in itself a type of 'harm'. I think it helps if your first two or three trips are positive experiences, but once you start exploring the psychedelic headspace, maybe increasing the dose, you are limiting yourself if you trip with the attitude that "I only want positive, happy, uplifting, euphoric trips".
I've never been particularly into the 'psychedelics as medicine' angle - I think they have a lot of therapeutic potential, and certainly allow a very deep level of introspection, but that's not really why I take them. I'm more interested in exploring the headspace on mushrooms for its own sake, I'm interested in consciousness, and also the sheer strangeness that comes out of a mushroom trip - I like to write in a trip journal during the trip and try to describe how it feels, what I'm thinking and seeing e.t.c
At higher doses I think it's almost inevitable that you experience a darker edge to a trip, a feeling of awe or fear as the intensity becomes overwhelming, and the most astounding or spiritual trips are where this darkness finally overwhelms you, at which point you recognize it is not something external and terrifying that is oppressing you, it is something amazing that is part of what you are - another part of your own mind or perhaps the underlying consciousness of the universe itself.
I think a 'bad trip' is often where you don't get far enough into this process for it to resolve into something more uplifting, or you resist the trip too much. In any case I find that the negative headspace encountered in a trip is usually part of the journey, a temporary part of the trip - the idea that you experience something negative and then you are stuck in a 'bad trip' with no way out, is not very helpful for harm reduction or anything else!
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
|
Grey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,652
|
|
Safety tips in order to avoid a "bad trip" are helpful for most people to follow. I think there is an important distinction to make between a challenging trip and an unsafe trip. The fact is that some people will crack and fall apart during the psychedelic experience. They can become very unstable, and potentially hurt themselves or others. It is important to do as much as possible to avoid that outcome and to mitigate potential dangers.
But I agree with you OP that challenging trips often lead to the greatest insights and positive changes. A lot of times a "bad trip" is really just the feeling of being confronted with a difficult truth that the conscious mind has been hiding from: "I have been hurting the ones I love most...", "That painful childhood experience is still affecting me today and I've been running from it my whole life...", "I need to be a better man than I have been because my time on this Earth is short...", etc. Realizations like that can be very overwhelming in the moment, but in the long run they can yield incredible positive change when we become more aware and act upon that new awareness.
What I find concerning is the idea that a trip sitter or therapist must be present to help you through the trip. I find this to potentially be very detrimental because it is so important to be completely open and honest with yourself during a trip. The last thing I woukd ever want is for someone else to plant ideas in my head during that extremely vulnerable time. It would be easy for someone else's ideas to become implanted in your mind, and become entangled in your thought process. The trip allows you to meet YOURSELF in a more complete and holistic way. But this is scary. And it is human nature to seek an external source to give meaning and interpretation to that which is frightening and confusing. But that is the beauty of the psychedelic experience. As frightening and confusing as it can be, you are put in touch with yourself and with nature in a raw form that nothing else can match. The challenge (and the incredible opportunity) is to be in that space with a humble and open mind to receive what is revealed. And ultimately, no else can do that for you. You must do it for yourself.
-------------------- IT WAS ALL A DREAM
|
Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,220
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 6 minutes, 44 seconds
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Grey Fox] 1
#26362642 - 12/05/19 09:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
All the fear exists in the ego, it's just a response it creates as its last hoorah to hold on for its life has been my experience, usually not some horrendous inner, repressed fear that you don't know where it's coming from. It's just the wee little ego protecting itself of course if you resist and fight the experience and listen to the fear, is when your mind can create all sorts of things, primarily distress.
If you go in unprepared is when problems arise. If you go in ready to face darkness and face fear if it arises, it suddenly becomes much less daunting and more of a journey through an obstacle, which 100% on the other side is pure love. I've struggled with this myself a lot in the past, letting go.. so simple yet so hard. All about complete acceptance and having the right intention to guide and power you through, your intention is your anchor
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
|
Grey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,652
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Eclipse3130] 2
#26362756 - 12/05/19 10:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I've found that the fear of letting go becomes less and less of an issue with the greater experience that one gains with tripping, especially at higher doses. For me the more challenging aspect of tripping comes from having to sit for hours with raw emotion that is brought to the surface. For me when this happens it is usually because of an emotionally challenging event in life that is going on. Death of a loved one, a painful anniversary, or some kind if personal setback. The psychedelic (cactus especially) brings those feelings out with power and duration. But I have found that there is great benefit to just sitting with those feelings and soaking them in. Even if I dont "learn" something from it, in the end I always feel stronger for having done it.
-------------------- IT WAS ALL A DREAM
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
|
Some of you seem to not be fully reading and/or understand what I am saying
I'm simply expressing my thoughts around a culture that doesn't seem to ever look at the importance of shadow work in relation to psychedelic usage
I've never said that harm reduction is bad or that everyone should pursue hard trips. I'm just pointing out my own non-resonance with this particular culture.
And I feel that placing such primary importance on harm reduction results in a lot of people ultimately missing the real message.
I had hard times with bad trips for years after first getting into psychedelics. They were not valuable bad trips because I didn't understand what was happening. None of this harm reduction type thought ever helped. The only thing that helped was when I finally learned and accepted that I had some hard work to do, within the psychedelic sessions themselves.
Edited by pixelpopper (12/05/19 11:26 AM)
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Grey Fox]
#26362814 - 12/05/19 11:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grey Fox said: What I find concerning is the idea that a trip sitter or therapist must be present to help you through the trip. I find this to potentially be very detrimental because it is so important to be completely open and honest with yourself during a trip. The last thing I woukd ever want is for someone else to plant ideas in my head during that extremely vulnerable time. It would be easy for someone else's ideas to become implanted in your mind, and become entangled in your thought process. The trip allows you to meet YOURSELF in a more complete and holistic way. But this is scary. And it is human nature to seek an external source to give meaning and interpretation to that which is frightening and confusing. But that is the beauty of the psychedelic experience. As frightening and confusing as it can be, you are put in touch with yourself and with nature in a raw form that nothing else can match. The challenge (and the incredible opportunity) is to be in that space with a humble and open mind to receive what is revealed. And ultimately, no else can do that for you. You must do it for yourself.
I've never had a trip sitter and I haven't tripped with any one else present for years. I do all my work alone.
That said, I do understand the idea behind working with a therapist - if you have actual relational trauma, and generally most personality disorders are associated with attachment injuries from varying levels of abusive/non-present relationships, then a big part of the healing comes from actually building a real relationship with another person. You get from the therapist the love that you failed to get before, the psychedelics allow you to access the original pain while being open to receiving love to heal. You may or may not be able to do this on your own. Having another person there who you fully trust to give you loving acceptance at the time of experiencing the original wounds is one key to the success of the therapy.
You can't really heal attachment issues so well on your own. It is the attachment issues which make you isolate in the first place. You may just end up further strengthening your attachment issues.
That said, I do my work alone. Its something I think a lot about
|
DJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer


Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Aldebaran] 1
#26362929 - 12/05/19 12:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I enjoyed your post, Aldebaran. So much so, if you lived near me I’d be your friend. I think we could have some great discussions.
I was about to post about PsychedSubstance, when I’d read all the replies, but you beat me to it, with much better written language than I could ever produce! I’m one of his 2M subscribers 👊🏻
I’ve not watched many of his recent videos though, probably since they started deleting his stuff, and the videos then became more.......I suppose more commercial and less spiritual. If that makes sense? And the harm reduction has become tiresome!
I have started to watch random trip reports that come up on my YouTube feed. But ultimately, I’ve returned to the Shroomery. I’m finding reading all your posts, and posting some of my own trips reports (I will make better efforts to improve my writing!), has been very therapeutic, and very stimulating. I’m on two week maintenance doses at the moment, so tomorrow will be 3.8g dry B+, and the house to myself, and my two labradors. Oh and Shpongle. In three years now, the self-medication has really been overcome by my curiosity of the psychedelic headspace. I just enjoy the trip. I intend once maybe twice yearly 5g+ trips, with the intention to go with the flow, don’t resist the ego death, and try to measure what impact that has on my mental health.
Take care all, DJ Ed.
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

|
LosTresOjos
Humano

Registered: 09/18/18
Posts: 1,347
Loc: Hurling Through Space
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper] 1
#26362962 - 12/05/19 12:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Harm reduction is very important. That's why you should get to know the general information first as a newbie. It's very important.
But an experienced user will not be taking mushrooms at the mall, nor walk into traffic. Their gonna be responsible. They know already. Once you've submerged yourself a few times you should understand how you react to stimuli.
The fear of taking high doses is always creeping up on me. I fear it. I see 5g-8g of mushrooms in front of me, I start to get the jitters. I sweat, I doubt. But fear is a controlling emotion and I know what I'm doing is safe, as far as dose is concerned. How many people don't ask that girl/guy out because of fear. How many didn't go for a job position because of fear. When have you decided you would not take another step forward because of fear?
With me personally if I take an eight all I get is fractals. I have an easy time falling into deep thinking. It is beneficial but I prefer the full on psychedelic experience. Being destroyed physical and mentally is where I find my home. I've had some really bad trips that were very eye opening. So bad trips happen, just like life.
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26363021 - 12/05/19 01:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
pixelpopper said: I had hard times with bad trips for years after first getting into psychedelics. They were not valuable bad trips because I didn't understand what was happening. None of this harm reduction type thought ever helped. The only thing that helped was when I finally learned and accepted that I had some hard work to do, within the psychedelic sessions themselves.
I wanted to expand on this a bit because I don't think I've expressed this part very well yet.
Some people that experience bad trips are the ones that need the healing aspect of psychedelic usage. The reason they are experiencing bad trips is because they need the healing. Continued usage of psychedelics will likely result in more bad trips until this stuff is dealt with.
Dealing with your problems without psychedelics is an option, but the reason psychedelics have gained so much attention in regards to healing is because they are such powerful healing medicine. You can potentially accomplish years worth of therapy in just a few sessions. Some people are also heavily resistant to normal therapy due to psychological defenses, which psychedelics completely break through.
This idea of that people in bad places in their life or who are depressed, etc, shouldn't trip is not telling people the truth about the power of psychedelics to heal exactly these problems.
Whereas PsychedSubstance's recent video about bad trips and how he wish he could tell his past self to get his shit together before tripping is like the opposite of what I would tell my past self.
I would tell my past self that the bad trips are my issues trying to surface so they can be examined, how to use the psychedelics to access the things that needed to be worked through, how to use the trips to heal. That is true harm reduction, IMO.
Edited by pixelpopper (12/05/19 01:26 PM)
|
Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 1,322
Loc: Altered States of Europe
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: DJ Ed]
#26363038 - 12/05/19 01:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
tomorrow will be 3.8g dry B+, and the house to myself, and my two labradors. Oh and Shpongle
Enjoy your trip, and thanks for the kind words 
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
|
Grey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,652
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Aldebaran] 1
#26363042 - 12/05/19 01:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Its normal to feel some anxiety going into a trip. But "fear of letting go", in my mind, is resisting the trip and trying to hold onto your ego identity as much as possible as you feel the effects of the psychedelic building. This is where people can panic. But ultimately if you go high enough you reach a point where you are going to lose your ego no matter what. If you keep going back to that point then eventually you realize that resistance is futile and over time it becomes easier to roll with the trip and go with its flow into ego death without the resistance. When I'm going deep into a trip that is strong, often I feel a sense of deja vu that "I've been here before" and "I know this place" and that gives me comfort to face whatever is coming because I've done it before.
-------------------- IT WAS ALL A DREAM
|
Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 1,322
Loc: Altered States of Europe
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26363056 - 12/05/19 01:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I'm simply expressing my thoughts around a culture that doesn't seem to ever look at the importance of shadow work in relation to psychedelic usage
What does "shadow work" actually mean? It doesn't return much in a search and I've not heard the term used before, but it sounds intriguing. Your initial post mentions "confronting pain, fear, trauma, and cleansing them via experiencing" but is there some particular technique for doing this?
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
Edited by Aldebaran (12/05/19 01:54 PM)
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Aldebaran]
#26363146 - 12/05/19 02:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Aldebaran said: What does "shadow work" actually mean? It doesn't return much in a search and I've not heard the term used before, but it sounds intriguing. Your initial post mentions "confronting pain, fear, trauma, and cleansing them via experiencing" but is there some particular technique for doing this?
Well the shadow is a pretty big concept within psychology, primarily Jungian psychology & the works of Carl Jung.
The general idea as what I'm referring to when I talk about the shadow - its the side of your self that contains all your unconscious drives, the unconscious things that shape your personality, your reactions to people/daily life, etc. Everyone has their own personality structure which is mostly formed in your first years in life - shaped by your experiences with the immediate world around you (generally your parents). Certain things are internalized and behaviours are learned, personality is formed as a way of operating in the world as a means of survival. The way we operate isn't really a conscious process.
Diving into these unconscious areas & exploring what has created our personality is what I would refer to as "shadow work". It often, if not always, involves opening up to past traumas and psychological injuries which are repressed and guarded by psychological defenses.
Pretty much everyone has stuff in their past, even if they don't think they do, because things that create psychological trauma are not isolated to severe abuse. A lot of what was previously considered normal parenting is now known to cause attachment injuries, which in turn create various personality disorders / defense mechanisms which are then acted out through the entirety of one's life.
I don't really differentiate between consciousness exploration and therapeutic usage of psychedelics - its more or less the same thing to me, although there are more defined therapeutic methods.
|
Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 1,322
Loc: Altered States of Europe
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26363234 - 12/05/19 03:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thanks for explaining that.
I've gradually come to the conclusion that what you are exploring in a trip is to a large extent your own unconscious in one way or another, and what you say here makes a lot of sense.
This isn't the first time that Jung's name has cropped up for me recently (I've been reading about topics such as the role of the unconscious in creativity, another article talked about his 'red book') so perhaps I should start reading something by him!
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: Aldebaran] 1
#26363261 - 12/05/19 03:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Jung's writings are excellent, but a lot of people seem to find them too dense to easily read. I love his stuff though. There's also plenty of writing out there about his ideas, and a lot of audio/video media... the only downside is that you may end up reading/listening to someone who doesn't have a solid grasp on the ideas.
Here's a pretty good video I just listened to regarding mushroom dosing and working with attachment issues, figured I'd share it here since I mentioned attachment injuries in previous post. Attachment style is something that has extremely broad reaches on one's overall personality structure, and as such plays a huge role in how life is experienced.
Something the guy touches on in this video that I didn't mention before is one's sense of self, and the ability to soothe one's self. If you grew up with parents where you developed a healthy/strong attachment, then you learn to develop a strong sense of self and have the ability to soothe yourself (calm yourself down during stress, the ability to know things will be ok). The less healthy your attachments were as a child, the less of a sense of self you have. This directly relates to how well you can handle heavy tips, because when things start to get heavy, you are much more likely to freak out if you don't have a good sense of self.
The video also touches on dosing amounts, and talks about similar things as what I was saying regarding higher doses bypassing the areas where you are really doing the psychological work that lingers on your issues, rather than totally losing yourself in the trip.
Here's a couple books that are available as e-books pretty cheap, written by the same guy and exploring these topics.
Decomposing the Shadow: Lessons from the Psilocybin Mushroom https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18145374-decomposing-the-shadow
The True Light of Darkness https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25831302-the-true-light-of-darkness
I just discovered this guy through Sabnock and I'm really digging his work!
Edited by pixelpopper (12/05/19 03:54 PM)
|
feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26363266 - 12/05/19 03:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Great topic, great responses as well
My view on psychedelics is that these are not "designed" to be a one-off experience.
Eventually after spending some time with these molecules, you dose too high (or maybe even 'just right'), and you get flooded with all your flaws, insecurities, fears, existential dread, etc etc
That teaches you not to do that again, until you have your shit 100% together. You then may go on to warn other people they may not want to try a large dose because it'll tear them apart.
In a way, that strips them of learning the lesson for themself.
I say lesson loosely, because it's different for everyone and some people don't get anything resembling a lesson. For me, the lesson was "You need to do this again, and now you know exactly the changes to make in your life if you don't want your ass kicked next time you do this. Take it seriously.". I took it seriously, and for 6+ years wanted no part in anything psychedelic.
The research being done is biased and easily picked apart. The conclusions it draws seem sound from my own experience, but the narrative that having a few trips and doing no outstide work will cure your depression or get rid of your fear of death is simply not applicable to most people. It's clever researcher doing what they can to do what's right, which I'm all for as they're playing the game exactly how it needs to be played. Many, many, trippers though have "life changing" experiences on the regular, only to pass with a needle in their arm or some simlarly tragic fate... just check the RIP thread for confirmation.
So basically my opinion is that the substance itself doesn't do the healing, but can indirectly (maybe even directly) provide lessons on how to heal yourself that may hurt to hear at the time on a level you can't imagine while sober. It's not a revolutionary view, many psychonauts stress "integration" as the key factor. Psychedelics shock you into the reality of the present moment, they strip away some of the cognitive distortions and biased thought trains and show you what's always been right in front of you, but somehow hidden.
As it pertains to this thread, I think that as a one off for someone trying to have a good time, dose is an important factor. For a developing psychonaut.... they'll get there eventually. LSD is risky because you can take 1,000 doses in one swallow, but the more natural variety seem largely to be self-regulating.
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: feevers]
#26363286 - 12/05/19 04:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply that psychedelics alone will produce lasting healing, without any real world integration/work.
But psychedelics when used properly can totally tear down walls of defense that can take years to break through via something like talk therapy. The psychedelics allow you to enter into the healing space in a very short amount of time, wheras traditional therapy will take many years and often never actually break through defenses. But you have to actually do the work to integrate.
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: feevers]
#26363303 - 12/05/19 04:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
feevers said: Great topic, great responses as well
My view on psychedelics is that these are not "designed" to be a one-off experience.
Eventually after spending some time with these molecules, you dose too high (or maybe even 'just right'), and you get flooded with all your flaws, insecurities, fears, existential dread, etc etc
That teaches you not to do that again, until you have your shit 100% together. You then may go on to warn other people they may not want to try a large dose because it'll tear them apart.
In a way, that strips them of learning the lesson for themself.
I say lesson loosely, because it's different for everyone and some people don't get anything resembling a lesson. For me, the lesson was "You need to do this again, and now you know exactly the changes to make in your life if you don't want your ass kicked next time you do this. Take it seriously.". I took it seriously, and for 6 years wanted no part in anything psychedelic.
And this is also a big reason that I advocate for smaller doses, particularly in regards to when someone is looking specifically for healing.
If you work with smaller doses, you can do this work on a regular schedule. Something like one session per month, more or less depending on the individual. Each session will allow you to explore your self & issues while not being completely torn apart. It will still be a very strong experience. And the cumulative result of these regular, lower dosed sessions will continually break down your defenses and prepare the way for future, heavier work.
Its the difference between using psychedelics as part of a practice, versus blindly just diving in and seeing what happens
|
feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26363403 - 12/05/19 04:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
pixelpopper said: Yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply that psychedelics alone will produce lasting healing, without any real world integration/work.
But psychedelics when used properly can totally tear down walls of defense that can take years to break through via something like talk therapy. The psychedelics allow you to enter into the healing space in a very short amount of time, wheras traditional therapy will take many years and often never actually break through defenses. But you have to actually do the work to integrate.
I agree mostly, but never been a fan of the "(__) years of psychotherapy in one dose" phrase that's so often uttered
My background is in addiction counseling, and in a handful of sessions or less you can get pretty damn deep with someone and see the changes start happening at their core. I've had people tell me during intake about some of the worst traumas you can imagine from child sex trafficking to being tortured by their parents, just simply having another human to hear you out for the first time can be worth far more than any molecule imo. Coping strategies are not ever likely to stick immediately, but taught well can help someone start building a solid foundation that eventually will become their basis of getting their shit together long term. These are people who often times have copius psychedelic use in their drug history as well, many 'life changing" experiences that brought them to naught.
So many people talking about the incredible benefits of psychedelics barely have their own shit together. One example of many just because he's been brought up here... I remember checking out the PsychedSubstance guy a few years back (I think his videos are entertaining regardless), and him having a whole separate channel complaining about his life and asking for money while he was on his main channeling preaching ego death and integration.
So I think it's easy to over-generalize and overstate the results possible with these things. I believe them to be the most mind boggling and powerful things outside of consciousness itself. I believe that they can be a tremendous part of a therapeutic regimen (and have wrote several of my own including this), but I also think someone's psychedelic use and personal/spiritual growth are so complex and personal to them that generalizations are often unhelpful. Sure in general psychedelics=good, but for very, very, many people, psychedelics are not enough and the "microdosing cures depression?" etc threads that pop up here daily show that the info getting to the public is not painting the full picture and instead maybe being harmful by leading to high expectations that end up unfulfilled, leading someone to toss the idea aside afterwards
I think a lot of people have to work on themselves to even be ready to listen and accept anything they learn during a trip. It was certainly that way for me. Now I take it far more seriously and imo get far more out of it. I think we're largely saying the same thing and I'm just rambling and overthinking
Edited by feevers (12/05/19 04:53 PM)
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: feevers] 1
#26363523 - 12/05/19 05:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think we are in general agreement, although perhaps we are trying to find the right words to communicate our ideas clearly.
I definitely see what you're saying in your entire post, and your referring to PsychedSubstance's personal issues is a good example - although again I'd use it as an example of what I am trying to say - he never really has made any deep content about doing the real hard work I am referring to. Any time he touches on insight from "bad trips" its more of a side note, a kind of side effect, whereas I'm referring to intentionally putting yourself through heavy, hard trips as the means to therapeutic healing. And this goes to the root of what I'm trying to express in this thread.
A lot of people have a very flawed idea of how psychedelic healing works, like you've said, and I think that this is largely because of this harm reduction culture I've been referring to. This understanding of psychedelic healing is like its a magic substance that you just take and it provides the healing, and you just have to do it under the proper circumstances, and if you have a bad trip then it failed... etc. Its hard to find the exact words to communicate what I mean.
But actual usage of psychedelics for healing therapeutically is hard work. Its not fun, and is often scary because truly addressing the things that have formed you as a person is scary stuff.
I've done a lot of my own research and study into different fields of psychology and spirituality. And this includes actual current academic / clinical material from professionals, lots of it.
I've developed my thoughts around this process mostly completely outside of the psychedelic community - I haven't paid much attention to this world in recent years, aside from the work of Stan Grof. My insights have come from my own research into what we currently know about psychology, personality, trauma and relationships, and my using this knowledge to navigate my own regular psychedelic sessions.
Now that I am again paying attention to some of the current psychedelic community, I find it very exciting to see some of the same conclusions I've reached on my own being echoed by others.
When I say anything about a few sessions equaling years of therapy, I'm talking mostly about my own experience using psychedelics and comparing to what I've learned about clinical therapy and how it naturally progresses for most people.
I've experienced very powerful results on my own, and its the reason I speak up about this topic and try to encourage discussion, because it has been so profound for me personally.
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26363600 - 12/05/19 06:02 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Another thing I'd like to add...
The idea of "getting your shit together" is also kind of a false notion, in that at some point you will have your shit together. Its a never ending process, and no one is ever really free from issues that need to be always considered/worked on in relation to how you're operating in daily life.
Just because someone still has depression or has a lot of things going wrong, doesn't mean they haven't received genuine healing.
Particularly if a person has substantial issues/personality problems to start with, often these issues can only be improved to varying degrees but will never fully go away. But one can become conscious of them and do their best to work on them, and receive healing/genuine insight in that process.
A lot of professional therapists themselves are very fucked up people. Many times it is what gets them into this field of interest. If you start looking into it, there are so many stories of people being fucked with by their therapists, who are making their problems worse... its actually quite common. And sometimes there are even worse cases of abuse/misconduct by the therapist. I only mention this because it seems to just be part of the entire field as a whole, not just psychedelic therapy enthusiasts. Its also the reason I'm very wary of actually going to a therapist, aside from the fact I can't afford it.
|
feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper] 1
#26363645 - 12/05/19 06:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
pixelpopper said: whereas I'm referring to intentionally putting yourself through heavy, hard trips as the means to therapeutic healing.
Wish more people had that attitude, it seems like a foreign language to most. So much can be learned by both having an experience so gut-wrenching you try to fight it, and also by having the same experience and simply letting go. Both teach different yet equally important lessons
Quote:
Another thing I'd like to add...
The idea of "getting your shit together" is also kind of a false notion, in that at some point you will have your shit together. Its a never ending process, and no one is ever really free from issues that need to be always considered/worked on in relation to how you're operating in daily life.
In some contexts, sure. From my experience though, many of the messages are pretty clear in terms of how to integrate. "Spend more time with loved ones", "You can't handle (__whatever rec drug___), so stop." "Value your wife more" etc.
These are pretty easy to either do, or don't do. From experience, I know with reasonable certainty that the next time I breakthrough on DMT or take a huge mushroom dose, I'll get slapped if those things from my last trip aren't being improved upon.
So I didn't mean it in a "don't trip unless your set is perfect" way, but in a "don't expect a completely enjoyable trip if you ignored what came up last time" kinda way.
Quote:
A lot of professional therapists themselves are very fucked up people. Many times it is what gets them into this field of interest. If you start looking into it, there are so many stories of people being fucked with by their therapists, who are making their problems worse... its actually quite common. And sometimes there are even worse cases of abuse/misconduct by the therapist. I only mention this because it seems to just be part of the entire field as a whole, not just psychedelic therapy enthusiasts. Its also the reason I'm very wary of actually going to a therapist, aside from the fact I can't afford it.
There are lots of terrible therapists as there are lots of terrible doctors, auto mechanics, politicians, engineers, etc etc. I wouldn't let that deter you at all. I have a stickied thread in the phys/mental well being forum on how to find affordable therapy, but if I remember right you're not in the U.S. If you ever do decide to go, my best advice is to make consultation appointments (typically free in the US) with at least 3, and you can pick the one that seems the most your style. mine is super cool and loves hearing about my trips and working with what comes up , it's the first question I asked in my consultation appointment .
|
PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper] 1
#26363767 - 12/05/19 07:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
pixelpopper said: This is a guy who has been making psychedelic videos for years, and one of his newest videos is all about how bad trips are the result of not having your shit together.
What's sad is that there are people out there actively promoting this kind of crap. What's sadder is that there may be people agreeing with it and learning how to limit themselves as a result. What's saddest is that there are still people who believe "bad trips" are just difficult trips, when those have the most potential for genuine growth.
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (12/05/19 07:56 PM)
|
The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: PrimalSoup] 1
#26363939 - 12/05/19 09:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I really like this thread & replies, I just have one extremely important thing and personal warning too add to this
(To OP) you stated in a response the ones who have bad trips are the ones who need the healing, I absolutely agree and that’s totally me...
however the main reason I personally have bad trips to this moment is because at one point in time I threw any sense of harm reduction out the window.
So the actual reason I have bad trips is because of self inflicted trauma, but this trauma I inflicted on myself happened directly through psychedelics..high doses of dmt & lsd (I.e. 60mg, 5 gel tabs) at way too young of an age (like 17) too be short..
And now I’m healing myself..with the exact same thing I hurt myself and got myself into this place with in the first place...
This is not necessary for anyone, and I definitely don’t recommend it.
As many of you probably do as well, I have a “personal” relationship too these substances, and it was there before and at the bad trips...but I could easily imagine someone without any inkling of this relationship, inflicting this trauma on themselves, and never returning too them too heal..which is what’s necessary too heal from it if that was the “external” thing involved in the trauma.
Because I have experience with the reason people preach harm reduction beyond taking fake substances and physically dying, I lean heavily towards the harm reduction sides of things for people just getting into psychedelics. Trauma is just not necessary and best too stay away from.
But a balance of these two ideas..which we can say one is essentially a reluctance/hiding from self and one a radical seeking/exploration/facing of self, is absolutely necessary for any real “growth”, or better said liberation..imo.
--------------------

|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: The lurker]
#26365026 - 12/06/19 01:10 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The lurker said: So the actual reason I have bad trips is because of self inflicted trauma, but this trauma I inflicted on myself happened directly through psychedelics..high doses of dmt & lsd (I.e. 60mg, 5 gel tabs) at way too young of an age (like 17) too be short..
And now I’m healing myself..with the exact same thing I hurt myself and got myself into this place with in the first place...
This is not necessary for anyone, and I definitely don’t recommend it.
As many of you probably do as well, I have a “personal” relationship too these substances, and it was there before and at the bad trips...but I could easily imagine someone without any inkling of this relationship, inflicting this trauma on themselves, and never returning too them too heal..which is what’s necessary too heal from it if that was the “external” thing involved in the trauma.
Good point there. As I mentioned in a previous post, I also had some past experience at a young age with reoccurring bad trips of various levels, which did traumatize me a bit in relation to psychedelic usage. My very first trip produced the highest level of euphoria I've ever experienced, and I then tried to chase this dragon... but following trips often produced a lot of heavy negative reactions, and although I read widely on the available material of the time on how to handle trips, nothing really helped because I didn't understand what was happening. I just tried to improve my set/setting and avoid anything that could negatively influence my trips, etc... but it didn't really work. I still had some enjoyable trips, but most there was still this underlying thing trying to come to the surface.
Ultimately, I needed to learn to work with the psychedelics and allow this stuff to be faced fully through "bad trips" - and this is what has lead to powerful healing in my own usage... something I never would have found my way to if I had stuck to the "harm reduction" mindset.
But like you have said, I've developed a very personal relationship to these psychedelics. The usage of these substances has become part of my own personal practice in spirituality and self exploration/growth.
I feel that this was the path I should have began on with the usage of psychedelics, but instead I started on the path of pursuing enjoyable drug experiences through trying to optimize set/setting.
I agree that this path isn't for everyone, but there just doesn't seem to be as much of a voice for this path for people to find it. Maybe that's the way it should be
|
nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26365202 - 12/06/19 02:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Users get the most long term benefit out of good trips. Good things can come out of bad trips, but good trips are even better.
The advice to only trip when you're in a good set and setting doesn't just come from nowhere. It came originally from people using in the 60s who realized the importance of good set and setting, and then it was confirmed time and again by later generations of psychedelic users. People seem to get the most benefit out of good trips. Which is not to say that good trips can't involve some heavy shit. If you're using mushrooms, even the best of trips is going to involve some serious stuff.
However, there is a bit of randomness involved, and even in the worst set and setting someone can occasionally have a good trip, and vice versa sometimes even the best set and setting can result in a bad trip. And if you dose high enough, then the meaning of good trip and bad trip changes. But still, the good ones produce the best long term outcomes generally. Sometimes not though, there is randomness involved, but the good trips are more likely to produce positive outcomes.
I myself almost never get anything out of bad trips, I often find them to have been a waste of time, but I get a lot out of good trips.
If psychedelics can produce long lasting changes, then you probably want to take steps to make sure those changes are positive rather than negative.
Also bad trips are considerably more dangerous, and most serious issues encountered by people happen because of bad trips.
Edited by nooneman (12/06/19 02:37 PM)
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: nooneman]
#26365259 - 12/06/19 03:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I don't think you really understand the kind of "bad trips" being referred to here, nooneman
And if you want to talk about the history of psychedelic usage, well look to someone like Stan Grof who is basically the original therapist researching therapeutic usage of psychedelics. And his methods involve the kind of hard, heavy trips being referred to here.
Beyond modern usage, look to their origins within cultures who use these substances as medicine - its not all about "good trips" - its about healing, which involves a lot of rough experience.
But I think you're just getting hung up on the terms "bad" vs "good", or maybe you didn't actually read all of these posts
|
pixelpopper
Crap Artist

Registered: 09/20/13
Posts: 4,022
Loc: Dreamland
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: feevers]
#26365342 - 12/06/19 03:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
feevers said: There are lots of terrible therapists as there are lots of terrible doctors, auto mechanics, politicians, engineers, etc etc. I wouldn't let that deter you at all. I have a stickied thread in the phys/mental well being forum on how to find affordable therapy, but if I remember right you're not in the U.S. If you ever do decide to go, my best advice is to make consultation appointments (typically free in the US) with at least 3, and you can pick the one that seems the most your style. mine is super cool and loves hearing about my trips and working with what comes up , it's the first question I asked in my consultation appointment .
I'll take a look - I'm in the US but affordable to me is basically non-existent as I'm living on barely anything right now, and no assistance of any kind, just living on whatever I money I can make which is generally just enough to pay my rent.
|
feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
|
Re: Shadow Work vs Harm Reduction [Re: pixelpopper]
#26365370 - 12/06/19 03:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
pixelpopper said:
Quote:
feevers said: There are lots of terrible therapists as there are lots of terrible doctors, auto mechanics, politicians, engineers, etc etc. I wouldn't let that deter you at all. I have a stickied thread in the phys/mental well being forum on how to find affordable therapy, but if I remember right you're not in the U.S. If you ever do decide to go, my best advice is to make consultation appointments (typically free in the US) with at least 3, and you can pick the one that seems the most your style. mine is super cool and loves hearing about my trips and working with what comes up , it's the first question I asked in my consultation appointment .
I'll take a look - I'm in the US but affordable to me is basically non-existent as I'm living on barely anything right now, and no assistance of any kind, just living on whatever I money I can make which is generally just enough to pay my rent.
You don't qualify for medicaid? If you make under a certain amount per month you get free insurance and should be able to see a therapist without even paying a copay. I've been going since April and haven't paid a dime
Edited by feevers (12/06/19 03:54 PM)
|
|