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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26374259 - 12/11/19 12:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I have acctually never met anyone who claimed that public healthcare is not redistributive. Thats the whole selling point for most people.

The fact is that some people pay under 500 a year for public health insurance and some people pay over 39 000. I am not convinced that two people paying those prices for the same coverage are receiving equal benefit.

if insurance were privatized one could clearly afford better coverage than the other.

even if by some extremely statistically unlikely situation where all rich people use more healthcare than all poor people its healthcare that rich people largely funded in the first place.



"looked at it in context of benefits"

I'm not buying that frankly. people paying over 80 times what others pay for the same coverage, not because of your risk factor but your income, is a total bum deal.




It is definitely the selling point for me
that paying in more while younger and more able to work
redistributes that wealth back to me later in older age, or more importantly at point of unexpected health crisis

does that work better in the US with privatized healthcare?
dunno, maybe ask their homeless vets and stuff

you shouldn't worry about it anyway tho
as stated, as soon as it becomes more worthwhile for the rich to run robots than care for peasants
they will drop the illusion of caring for us
:cookiemonster:


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26374266 - 12/11/19 12:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
I refuse to read any of the posts posted on this page of the thread. Havent you guys ever heard of brevity?



'Trika breaks stuff down into 5 different points that each require a response. then breaks down each response into further points, its like decapitating a hydra. with every exchange we drift further from the root of the issue into separate issues.

I honestly cant believe you read up until this page lol. consideration for the reader went out the window  a few pages ago.

"It is definitely the selling point for me
that paying in more while younger and more able to work
redistributes that wealth back to me later in older age, or more importantly at point of unexpected health crisis"


You dont need to "redistribute" money to your older self. if you are paying your fair share ten you can save money for retirement. if there is no redistribution between people then it would serve the exact same purpose.

also some people stay in the lower tax brackets their whole lives. you are framing it as if all young people are in the higher tax brackets and all old people are in the lower tax brackets.

some people will pay somewhere around 500 annually and some people will pay somewhere in the range of 39 000 annually and people from both of those demographics get old.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26374267 - 12/11/19 12:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'd like to see the criteria for tax avoidance because alot of people get upset about legal methods (I know you brought up offshore accounts eariler. thats legal. those people arent breaking the law.) I'm sure most of it is stuff thats completely legal. there are all sorts of things you can do to pay less taxes, perfectly legally. for example you can reinvest all the profits for a business back into the business or you can reinvest a large portion. all sorts of things can alter your tax burden




If you’re rich. If you earn a regular salary and rent your home, there’s pretty much nothing you can do to reduce your tax burden


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374270 - 12/11/19 12:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

some people stay in the lower tax brackets their whole lives. you are framing it as if all young people are in the higher tax brackets and all old people are in the lower tax brackets.




People aren’t “in tax brackets.” Income is in brackets. Everyone pays the same amount of tax on the same amount of earned income.

A guy who makes $100k pays the same amount of tax for that amount as a guy who makes $10 million.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/11/19 12:57 AM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26374276 - 12/11/19 12:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
"It is definitely the selling point for me
that paying in more while younger and more able to work
redistributes that wealth back to me later in older age, or more importantly at point of unexpected health crisis"


You dont need to "redistribute" money to your older self. if you are paying your fair share ten you can save money for retirement. if there is no redistribution between people then it would serve the exact same purpose.
...




Don't need to, but it works better
see, the thing is, paid more in taxes in my 20s than have used in health services in my 30s while working through mental health issues
if required to cover my mental health treatment now, could not afford it
if telling my 20 year old self that mental health issues were on the horizon, would laugh in your face and tell you to give me back my tax dollars so I could buy more vidya games

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
also some people stay in the lower tax brackets their whole lives. you are framing it as if all young people are in the higher tax brackets and all old people are in the lower tax brackets.
...




income brackets are more typically moved through, as you showed, by shifting marital status
all young people are unattached earners before they are 2 parent 0 children bracket earning
and, eventually, when one spouse passes due to old age, almost all old people spend another period as unattached earners
making half the income they made while married without having kids (which was, of course, different than the income they made while in good health and 2 parent 2 child scenario)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
...
some people will pay somewhere around 500 annually and some people will pay somewhere in the range of 39 000 annually and people from both of those demographics get old.




and some people will earn off the backs of hundreds of people, while others are just making their own way through


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374282 - 12/11/19 01:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

That’s earned income.

A guy who works 40 hours a week and earns $100k pays more tax than a guy who sits by the pool all day and makes $100k buying and selling stocks.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineCleX
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Asante]
    #26374294 - 12/11/19 01:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

America may not be the greatest but our dental coverage is top notch!


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374314 - 12/11/19 01:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Wait, so in Canada, if I refuse to work but get hammered and fuck myself up due to negligence, I'll be able to walk into any hospital and get taken care of with absolutely no bill?


Quote:

koods said:
That’s earned income.

A guy who works 40 hours a week and earns $100k pays more tax than a guy who sits by the pool all day and makes $100k buying and selling stocks.




Correct. I wish more people understood this.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26374316 - 12/11/19 01:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Wait, so in Canada, if I refuse to work but get hammered and fuck myself up due to negligence, I'll be able to walk into any hospital and get taken care of with absolutely no bill?

...




It'll work better if you have a native background

****User was banned for this post****


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26374318 - 12/11/19 01:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Right. If I were a Canadian citizen, born and raised in the above scenario, no bill would be the case?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: CleX]
    #26374320 - 12/11/19 01:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374324 - 12/11/19 01:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Not trolling or starting heat, I'm genuinely curious about this from Canadian Shroomies here:

Quote:

"The reason the Canadian health-care system works as well as it does (and that is not by any means optimal) is because 90 percent of the population is within driving distance of the United States where the privately insured can be Seattled, Minneapolised, Mayoed, Detroited, Chicagoed, Clevelanded, and Buffaloed, thus relieving the pressure by the rich and influential to change a system that works well enough for the other people but not for them, especially when they are worried or in pain.

In the United States, there is no analogous safety valve, so the influential simply demand a different level of care and receive it.

In other words, Canada’s rigid state monopoly on health insurance works only because Canadians secretly have a private alternative: America’s market-based system." - https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/04/canada-single-payer-health-care-system-failures-cautionary-tale/




Yes slightly older article but I've wondered about the actual economics of this shit for a long time.

Enlighten me, Canadians!!!


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26374326 - 12/11/19 01:56 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Wait, so in Canada, if I refuse to work but get hammered and fuck myself up due to negligence, I'll be able to walk into any hospital and get taken care of with absolutely no bill?
.




The same thing happens in the US. The only difference is they send you a bill and you don’t pay it.

Why do conservatives worry about the unfairness of what the bottom 2% get for free? I’ll assume you have health insurance. Where is the outrage about the guy who pays the same amount for his insurance as you do but gets hammered and fucks himself up and gets taken care of with no bill?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374329 - 12/11/19 01:56 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Right. If I were a Canadian citizen, born and raised in the above scenario, no bill would be the case?



:lol: meant Native as in First Nations/Native American
the panels Banana mentioned earlier
have a bit of a tendency to offer more expedient services to natives

but if you were born or moved to here, yeah that is how it works
then when you recover you process into the system; if you have a permanent disability you get approved for disability
if you recover to good health, you will typically be processed through to EI
where you may or may not qualify for a small monthly payment as long as you show you are willing to work
by showing up at places of employment and having them sign a form that you showed up but are unacceptable to them

there is some variation by province in terms of how EI pays out tho


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Tantrika]
    #26374330 - 12/11/19 02:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Wait, so in Canada, if I refuse to work but get hammered and fuck myself up due to negligence, I'll be able to walk into any hospital and get taken care of with absolutely no bill?
.




The same thing happens in the US. The only difference is they send you a bill and you don’t pay it.

Why do conservatives worry about the unfairness of what the bottom 2% get for free? I’ll assume you have health insurance. Where is the outrage about the guy who pays the same amount for his insurance as you do but gets hammered and fucks himself up and gets taken care of with no bill?




I understand and that's why I was asking. To be honest I'm one of the few that doesn't have a problem with other people and WHY they get or need healthcare. I'm genuinely curious about the economics of it sans the morality issue. The extreme example I used was to see if anything and everything qualified as treatable up in Canada.

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Right. If I were a Canadian citizen, born and raised in the above scenario, no bill would be the case?



:lol: meant Native as in First Nations/Native American
the panels Banana mentioned earlier
have a bit of a tendency to offer more expedient services to natives

but if you were born or moved to here, yeah that is how it works
then when you recover you process into the system; if you have a permanent disability you get approved for disability
if you recover to good health, you will typically be processed through to EI
where you may or may not qualify for a small monthly payment as long as you show you are willing to work
by showing up at places of employment and having them sign a form that you showed up but are unacceptable to them

there is some variation by province in terms of how EI pays out tho




Got it, thanks Tantrika!


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26374333 - 12/11/19 02:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Not trolling or starting heat, I'm genuinely curious about this from Canadian Shroomies here:

Quote:

"The reason the Canadian health-care system works as well as it does (and that is not by any means optimal) is because 90 percent of the population is within driving distance of the United States where the privately insured can be Seattled, Minneapolised, Mayoed, Detroited, Chicagoed, Clevelanded, and Buffaloed, thus relieving the pressure by the rich and influential to change a system that works well enough for the other people but not for them, especially when they are worried or in pain.

In the United States, there is no analogous safety valve, so the influential simply demand a different level of care and receive it.

In other words, Canada’s rigid state monopoly on health insurance works only because Canadians secretly have a private alternative: America’s market-based system." - https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/04/canada-single-payer-health-care-system-failures-cautionary-tale/




Yes slightly older article but I've wondered about the actual economics of this shit for a long time.

Enlighten me, Canadians!!!




Yeah this is what typically happens

if someone has enough money, when they apply for the Canadian system for a major surgery or process
they get put into a waiting list with everyone else, adjustments are made for severity of cases, but not typically for financial bracket

as a result, people with money travel down the US for faster service
then come back up here and back to work


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26374336 - 12/11/19 02:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Not trolling or starting heat, I'm genuinely curious about this from Canadian Shroomies here:

Quote:

"The reason the Canadian health-care system works as well as it does (and that is not by any means optimal) is because 90 percent of the population is within driving distance of the United States where the privately insured can be Seattled, Minneapolised, Mayoed, Detroited, Chicagoed, Clevelanded, and Buffaloed, thus relieving the pressure by the rich and influential to change a system that works well enough for the other people but not for them, especially when they are worried or in pain.

In the United States, there is no analogous safety valve, so the influential simply demand a different level of care and receive it.

In other words, Canada’s rigid state monopoly on health insurance works only because Canadians secretly have a private alternative: America’s market-based system." - https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/04/canada-single-payer-health-care-system-failures-cautionary-tale/




Yes slightly older article but I've wondered about the actual economics of this shit for a long time.

Enlighten me, Canadians!!!




lol that is literally the opposite of reality. Far more Americans take advantage of the Canadian healthcare system than the other way around. 2% of Americans get some kind of healthcare in Canada. .2% of Canadians travel to the US for healthcare.

Donald Trump’s plan for cheap prescription drugs is to allow Americans to use Canadian pharmacies.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods] * 1
    #26374341 - 12/11/19 02:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

to my comprehension, the point is since 'everyone' (particularly those with financial interests) live less than a day from a border to a US state
in a manner similiar to how the majority of Australia's population is on the coast
that facillitates the exceptionally rich travelling to the US, and not using their considerable wealth to buy advertisements about how healthcare screws the poor and they should vote against it
not that 90% travel there

so it's not quite the opposite of reality, just a skewed way of portraying your same point


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Offlinekoods
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374342 - 12/11/19 02:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I mean there are literally church groups that take bus trips to Canada to get prescriptions filled. There is absolutely nothing like that in the other direction.

As for wait times, they don’t exist for essential procedures.

And as for seeing a specialist, good luck doing that in a timely manner in the US. Even with good insurance, it can take weeks.

And of course, unless you are paying out of pocket, in the US, your insurance plan dictates which doctors you can see. It is very difficult to get the primary care physician you want because even if your
Doctor accepts your plan, they are often not taking new patients. At least in Canada you get to choose whatever doctor you want (as long as they are accepting new patients)


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/11/19 02:20 AM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: British people try to guess US healthcare cost [Re: koods]
    #26374343 - 12/11/19 02:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
...
And as for seeing a specialist, good luck doing that in a timely manner in the US. Even with good insurance, it can take weeks.




"weeks" lol

it took me 11 months to get approved for a speech therapist
even with my agreeing to travel to the capital city of my province for the appointments

:hug:


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