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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,755
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 3
    #26359643 - 12/03/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




This is hands down the laziest take in modern politics.

“I don’t know shit about any of these ideologies so it’s clear the one that exists now is best.”


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OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26359667 - 12/03/19 05:41 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Corporate coups in banana republics isn't feudalism either.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359791 - 12/03/19 06:53 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
Where does feudalism stop and colonialism Begin?

Isnt colonialism really just feudalism on an international scale?




I think most major powers practiced Mercantilism during the colonial period.  Something like a feudal/capitalist hybrid I think.


--------------------


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.
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Registered: 11/27/19
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26359806 - 12/03/19 07:02 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Case in point

The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?
Through taxes and tribute....

The British empire didn't really come to an end until India got its independence.

The "CROWN JEWEL" of the British empire..


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26359807 - 12/03/19 07:05 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think I had ever heard that term being used to describe apolitical system...

Thank you for educating me <3


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"


Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 07:07 PM)

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26360158 - 12/03/19 10:43 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Feudalism was about a monarch reigning supreme and giving the nation's land to his buds and family, the aristocracy.



Feudalism is basically governenance through granting favors.  The rise of capitalism is also a really messy concept that didn't really arise out of a particular period of time as much as it's just sort of a label that some historians use to compartmentalize a social transformation that more or less goes back to the invention of agriculture.  Though if you wanted to focus on more recent factors I guess that you could get away with only going as far back as the Treaty of Westphalia.

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OfflineLRK
Zn+1=Zn^2+C


Registered: 09/07/18
Posts: 147
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26360214 - 12/03/19 11:56 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
You prefer the current failing system to the failing system of the old USSR.





You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions.

All the other economic systems prohibits people to think outside of the box and this inevitably will slow down the economy, technological advancements and happiness among the people (to name a few).

Inequality of wealth is not necessarily the fault of the system or corruption but the problem lies much deeper than this.

Broadly shared power is also not the answer to the problem as that can skew the power of corruption even further in favour of the corrupted people in power.

A good start will be to get a hierarchy of competence, honest and law abiding people in the correct positions. But how do you measure "good" people or competence? This equation will differ for everyone...

Do you see where I am going with this?
At the end of the day there will not be a (perfect) system that works for everyone as we are all different in interest, needs, productivity etc.
But capitalism at least encourage individualism and the hardworking people will get rewarded for the work they put in.




That's cool.  But what if you were someone with a heart condition or got into a terrible car accident and couldn't afford to get high quality healthcare?  That you might prefer the USSR's version of freedom to USA's.

They both leave much to be desired.

There is no scientific reason everybody can't be basically free and live in societies that have vast publicly available resources like universal health insurance at the same time.

All criticisms of USSR and China and Pol Pot and every other socialist boogeyman are best classified as the problems with having totalitarian dictators.

"You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions."

There were people realizing freedom within the USSR.  People existed there who were doing exactly what they wanted to do with their lives.  Great scientists, musicians, athletes, space explorers, etc.  Some people hated their goddamned lives.

Is it so different than in North America?

And what is the nature of this freedom, anyways?  When you understand that any fate you can realize will be entirely conditioned by the circumstances of the world you exist in, you see the wisdom in creating a just society free from domination.




John, I agree with you entirely. I am not arguing that Capitalism is the answer to all problems just that it is better than the alternatives.
Equal opportunity is better than equal outcome.

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OfflineLRK
Zn+1=Zn^2+C


Registered: 09/07/18
Posts: 147
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26360215 - 12/03/19 11:57 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




This is hands down the laziest take in modern politics.

“I don’t know shit about any of these ideologies so it’s clear the one that exists now is best.”




This is hands down the laziest response on any post.

"Making up claims that is not supported by facts."

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26360238 - 12/04/19 12:22 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Equal opportunity is better than equal outcome.



What do you mean "equal outcome"?  Only the smartest get to rocket scientists under communism, and only the most talented get to be performance artists.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineLRK
Zn+1=Zn^2+C


Registered: 09/07/18
Posts: 147
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360255 - 12/04/19 12:32 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Well that is exactly my point.
It is to dismiss differential outcomes based on abilities.
So it does not matter what your talent is and how "valuable" you are to society your outcome is the same as another.

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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Registered: 11/27/19
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26360291 - 12/04/19 01:23 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

"WE'RE ALL DESTINED TO ROT"

ALL THE SAME..


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 937
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26360293 - 12/04/19 01:24 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Whats the point of living if you don't enjoy yourself...

Were all fucked..... more or less...


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"


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Offlinechibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 03/16/17
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26360343 - 12/04/19 02:34 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?



Yes, you are wrong.  A lot of your heroic explorers were basically fugitives from the law.  Cortes didn't burn his ships to discourage cowardice.  He burned his ships because he didn't want the authorities to track him down.  I forget whether it was him or Pizarro who was on the run from the governor of Cuba though...

There was also a lot of (Christian) hatred of the infidel involved.  A big, huge motivator in European exploration was to make contact with legendary, lost Christian kingdoms.  And there wasn't really much in the way of allegiance to a nation among Europeans back then.  Monarchs were more like provincial authorities who you were forced to deal with on a case by case basis.

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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26360351 - 12/04/19 02:48 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Cuba became a Spanish colony because the Europeans loved sugar cane and tobacco....

But you're right
Im sure it was kind of like Alaska is now....
A lawless frontier where a criminal can easily evade the law and basically do what they want.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"


Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/04/19 02:49 AM)

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26360365 - 12/04/19 03:12 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Cuba became a Spanish colony because the Spanish expeditions made contact with the people who lived there first and those people didn't really have any social institutions that are comparable to what you'd call a government.  It's not that they didn't have some sort of a society with customs andlaws as much as it is that the sort of social structure that you take for granted as normal was entirely alien to them.  It led to one-sided, exploitative relationships but it was more like the Spanish nonchalantly expanding into what they saw as a vacuum full of misguided souls (specifically, misguided souls) who had to be subjugated for their own good.  The Spanish were pretty goddammed crazy.  Isabella, of Queen Isabella and Ferdinand, was pretty convinced that she was destined to give birth to the second coming of Jesus Christ and Ferdinand wasn't that much more grounded in reality.

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OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26360495 - 12/04/19 06:59 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Enlil you better not ban me for pointing out that Buckomcdoogle is clearly underaged and has wasted 3 pages of our time on absolutely nothing. This thread has no point, makes no sense, and it has meandered nonsensically the whole time. It is just people giving elementary micro-history lessons to a man who skipped every day of high school and is still in no mood to do any learning


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 3
    #26360552 - 12/04/19 07:52 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

In capitalist societies, your personal outcome is largely decided by luck.

You could be the most brilliant person in the world, but if you're born to dirt poor minority parents in some shitty school district in the ass end of Kentucky, there's a solid 50/50 chance you'll be in jail before you reach adulthood. You could be more or less retarded, and if you're born to a CEO and a lawyer in the nice part of town, you're not ever going to earn less than 75k a year.

Feudalism simply codifies this. A feudalistic society runs on personal loyalty and blood relations. You're born in a certain class with certain connections, and you stay there, regardless of your personal ability.

Socialism tries to put everyone on equal footing. Much like democracy, however, it sows the seeds of its own destruction. Paradox of tolerance and all that.

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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos] * 1
    #26360567 - 12/04/19 08:04 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?



Yes, you are wrong.  A lot of your heroic explorers were basically fugitives from the law.  Cortes didn't burn his ships to discourage cowardice.  He burned his ships because he didn't want the authorities to track him down.  I forget whether it was him or Pizarro who was on the run from the governor of Cuba though...

There was also a lot of (Christian) hatred of the infidel involved.  A big, huge motivator in European exploration was to make contact with legendary, lost Christian kingdoms.  And there wasn't really much in the way of allegiance to a nation among Europeans back then.  Monarchs were more like provincial authorities who you were forced to deal with on a case by case basis.



Mmm.. I do subscribe to the notion that Cortes destroyed his ships (except for one, you're forgetting, which was sent directly back to King Charles rather than Velasquez, his superior) in order to discourage his men from sailing back to Cuba rather than go through with a conquest of the Aztecs. He wanted to found his own colony in order to get out from under the rule of Governor Velasquez. Which brings me to the point of him being "just a fugitive" which is a bit of misrepresentation. He was given direct orders by the Governor of Cuba to conquer Mexico and at the absolute last second, the order was revoked due to their petty beef. He ignored this and went anyway. So, yes, illegal, and yes, on the run from the law, but the expedition was not some fugitive escape plan. It was just performing a military order despite it being revoked last minute.

Now back to the ships. Cortes' plan was to march inland. His path was very wiggly and through very rough terrain, so the location of his landed ships would've been pretty inconsequential to his discovery by Spanish forces, which he very well was expecting have to fight eventually once they caught up with him, which was pretty inevitable. So it was really the opposite reason that he destroyed them. It wasn't to evade the authorities, it was because he knew he would have to face the authorities, and knew it would be a hard sell to get his men to stick around if they had to fight their own countrymen before a reckless invasion of an alien empire.

Which brings me to the national identity. You are confused. At that time there certainly WAS a feeling of national identity that was in contrast to the middle ages. After the Treaty of Westphalia, which was entire generations before colonialism even began, national identities became to develop more and more, and the concept of what is closer to our modern idea of a nation state is, was formed. Monarchs were not "provincial authorities". They were the rulers of nations.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360574 - 12/04/19 08:10 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Good article.  I posted one about their earlier work some time back in a discussion of whether or not IQ is a good predictor of financial success.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360579 - 12/04/19 08:13 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

I'm pretty sure the current scientific consensus for the US is that the most important factor in your lifelong wellbeing and financial success is the amount of money in your daddy's wallet.

So, vaguely feudalistic. Except loyalty and blood is replaced by benjamins.

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