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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Lets talk........ Feudalism......
    #26358077 - 12/02/19 10:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

For those of you who might not be familiar.
Feudalism was the most dominant form of government pre 1700's

I am of the belief that we are slowly headed back to that.

So basically feudalism is when:
You pay taxes to a warlord of some kind, and in exchange he protects you with his private armies.

The thing is...
Capitalism really isnt much more than 300-400 years old......
Before that it was feudalism in one way or another.

Whats really scary (And I get it, iv'e been poor my whole fucking life)

People often either jokingly or seriously talk about "tearing down capitalism" or some bullshit like that.

You realize the alternative to that is....
You pay tribute to a warlord (or government) in either the form of labor or taxes.

Corporate feudalism isnt really quite so different except for that fact, that you do have SOME choices

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=%2b65dyUfh&id=2319D427E9332230C76284E63EE08C6CEA674AC9&thid=OIP.-65dyUfhIsQzEmd4ChePnQHaGL&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2f2.bp.blogspot.com%2f-5uPeuw6ikqQ%2fUt9-Op61BkI%2fAAAAAAAAJTc%2fPtYZXM5NLoo%2fs1600%2fbbb9.jpg&exph=1000&expw=1200&q=feudalism&simid=608003635655543137&selectedIndex=1&ajaxhist=0
^
Great diagram, describes our society to a T


^SERIOUSLY................... It literally explains our current society


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/02/19 10:25 PM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle] * 1
    #26358100 - 12/02/19 10:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Societies take their shape from the way power is distributed.  There are plenty of alternatives other than feudalism or present day capitalism.

Feudalism was about a monarch reigning supreme and giving the nation's land to his buds and family, the aristocracy.

Capitalism arose after the French Revolution and promised fraternity, equality and brotherhood, but aristocracy evolved and survived.  It's defining quality is unreasonable privilege.  Today it's measured in dollars, instead of decreed by a monarch, and maintained by a fraudulent, usury based monetary system.  The definition of it kind of went obsolete.  Im here to say that at the very least, if you are pulling 1% level money out of the system merely by ownership, by usury really, then you are a present day aristocrat.

What we need is true sharing of societal power.  It seems the only way to achieve that is through democracy.  Real, informed, nurtured democracy, where the press doesn't nearly always represent the ruling class.  That and a broad distribution of wealth.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26358107 - 12/02/19 10:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"Feudalism was about a monarch reigning supreme and giving the nation's land to his buds and family, the aristocracy."

crony capitalism
[crony capitalism]
NOUN
An economic system characterized by close, mutually advantageous relationships between business leaders and government officials."

These things are happening right now, they are just called something different.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/02/19 10:47 PM)


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26358149 - 12/02/19 11:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26358161 - 12/02/19 11:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It breeds corruption, every, single, time.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26358192 - 12/03/19 12:06 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
...history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work



As Enlil used to remind us, socialism can't work because capitalist countries would never give it a chance to work.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26358204 - 12/03/19 12:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Wouldn't you consider Russia to be capitalist in a modern sense?

As far as I know they have been backing the Venezuelan government for a long time.

correct me if I am wrong..


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 12:17 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle] * 3
    #26358206 - 12/03/19 12:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

True.  But the United States has been putting a hurting on (sanctioning) Venezuela to punish them for attempting socialism.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26358228 - 12/03/19 12:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




All Im saying it that for there to ever be a peaceful, just society, power must be distributed broadly, otherwise domination occurs, which I argue is what causes all of our social problems.  Since wealth brings power, great wealth inequality is offensive to peace and justice, and must be remedied.

The scary socialism of the Soviet Union and all that was a pretty bizarre type, it's biggest failing was that it was not democratic.  It was authoritarian.  Therefore power could never be shared, and it suffered from the horrors of domination.  Perhaps is was closer to feudalism than socialism, in that a politically connected class were the aristocrats, instead of the capital owning class of our societies.

The feudalist societies sort of took care of everyone too.  It was primitive yes, but there was a belief that everyone should have a place in society, as far as I understand, you probably got a pretty shitty place, but the unbelievable exclusion of people like the 100s of thousands of homeless in the USA did not happen.  That's the undesirable consequences of this version of freedom. 

Capital isn't going where it needs to go.  It doesn't go to social and environmental needs.  It is tightly controlled by a cabal who use it for their own competing power games.  Capital needs to be democratically controlled, otherwise we will never get control of society, and it's the 11 hour to get control of ourselves here.  Another century of this and change is going to come, alright.  The hard way.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26358231 - 12/03/19 01:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.....

I think  a good example is the healthcare industry...... There is absolutely no reason INSULIN OR EPIPENS should be as expensive as they are..... and it purely is 100% because of greed

martin shkreli...... I hope someone kills him....
The fucked up thing is he didnt get into trouble until he defrauded wallstreet investors.....

"pigs are going to regulate themselves?"
-Bullworth..


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26358281 - 12/03/19 02:20 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
It breeds corruption, every, single, time.




Agreed, but people are inherently greedy, jealous etc. so those same people who are responsible for the corruption will be the ones that cause socialism to fail. This has been proven with every single socialist/communist country that has ever existed.

With Capitalism you as an individual at least have the freedom to decide your own fate (albeit amongst corrupt leaders).

Again I will say that capitalism is not perfect but better than the alternatives.

The only way, I believe, any social structure can thrive is for people to let go of their hate/greed and replace that with love for others. In this way everyone would want to take care of each other and wealth will be distributed naturally.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26358318 - 12/03/19 03:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Agreed, but people are inherently greedy, jealous etc. so those same people who are responsible for the corruption will be the ones that cause socialism to fail




You prefer the current failing system to the failing system of the old USSR.

You are entitled to your opinion on these things, but neither of those systems feature broadly shared power.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26358326 - 12/03/19 03:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I dont think communism and socialism are really a 1 fits all for most leftist regimes.

The Korean definition is different than the Chinese


Whats the difference between a Stalinist and a Maoist?

The Norks are Stalinists.

I genuinely dont think I could define the difference.

Enlighten us?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26358327 - 12/03/19 03:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What I do know is some 40 million chinese starved to death under Mao

I forget the name of the movie...... Its about a Chinese family when the communists take over........

They were forced to produce useless grain and steel....
Just to make the regime look good


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26358340 - 12/03/19 03:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You seem to not have an understanding of feudalism nor capitalism, and the diagram is obviously not at all a parallel of feudalism nor does it describe our society. Just because a society is hierarchical does not mean it is feudalistic.


--------------------


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26358374 - 12/03/19 04:44 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
You prefer the current failing system to the failing system of the old USSR.





You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions.

All the other economic systems prohibits people to think outside of the box and this inevitably will slow down the economy, technological advancements and happiness among the people (to name a few).

Inequality of wealth is not necessarily the fault of the system or corruption but the problem lies much deeper than this.

Broadly shared power is also not the answer to the problem as that can skew the power of corruption even further in favour of the corrupted people in power.

A good start will be to get a hierarchy of competence, honest and law abiding people in the correct positions. But how do you measure "good" people or competence? This equation will differ for everyone...

Do you see where I am going with this?
At the end of the day there will not be a (perfect) system that works for everyone as we are all different in interest, needs, productivity etc.
But capitalism at least encourage individualism and the hardworking people will get rewarded for the work they put in.


Edited by LRK (12/03/19 05:07 AM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 2
    #26358527 - 12/03/19 06:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




If "history has proved it over and over that socialism doesn't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism", could you give some examples of when socialism has transformed into communism, because I can't think of one.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26358627 - 12/03/19 07:41 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I have reread my sentence and what I meant to say was "will almost always transform into some form of communism"... (English is not my first language and I do make mistakes :smile: ).

But you have skewed my sentence as well as I have not stated that it transforms into communism but rather "some form of communism" if you give it time.
Zimbabwe is a good example of this.

From the way you have structured your sentence I get the feeling you are pro socialism? (I might be wrong as you can't read emotion in a post)


Edited by LRK (12/03/19 07:43 AM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 1
    #26358729 - 12/03/19 09:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Socialism as practiced in Northern Europe is fine with me.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones] * 3
    #26358752 - 12/03/19 09:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26358795 - 12/03/19 09:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well that's not really true socialism but let's not argue the details as there are a lot of information online that will show this.

But I am not arguing the fact that Northern European countries are successful, just that it is not because of "socialism".


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 2
    #26358946 - 12/03/19 11:39 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There is never true socialism or true communism or true capitalism.

I know very little about African history, other than a long history of colonialism that IMO continues to negatively impact them long after independence.

But in the rest of the world, can you give an example of socialism transitioning into communism?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26359104 - 12/03/19 01:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This begs the question of what is 'socialism'?

Hard core capitalists like to call the European model 'socialism', but many economists reject that.

I thought socialism is where the people of a country own all the means of production, and if that is privately owned it's not really socialism?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26359117 - 12/03/19 01:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know why you would insist on trying to twist my sentence, even after I have told you what I said is "in some form of communism". What I mean by that is that it is inheriting some traits from it eventually.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Why do you want to disregard it just because it's from Africa or you have a lack of knowledge about the continent?

In any case, you are missing the point of my post and choose to fixate on one small part.
The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 2
    #26359118 - 12/03/19 01:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:

The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.




The USSR went from a nation with a 90 percent illiteracy rate to becoming a superpower on par with the United States.


--------------------
https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359447 - 12/03/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"You seem to not have an understanding of feudalism nor capitalism, and the diagram is obviously not at all a parallel of feudalism nor does it describe our society. Just because a society is hierarchical does not mean it is feudalistic. "

Attack the argument, not the person..........................
Just because we have the illusion of democracy doesnt mean its not feudalistic..
All the power is concentrated at the hand of people like ERIK PRINCE (Black water)

Does the president REALLY run the country?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 03:50 PM)


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359455 - 12/03/19 03:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Betsy Devos..... Trumps education secretary is related to ERIC PRINCE (BLACKWATER) and the Waltons (WAL MART)

Isnt it interesting how all of these things are connected????

Don't think that trump and Clintons aren't homies......


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359469 - 12/03/19 03:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I attacked your argument by saying it displays a lack of understanding of both systems. The more posts you make, the more obvious it becomes. Corporations having vast influence does not equate at all to a system of vassal land owners under a dynastic overlord. Just a silly comparison. Calling it a 'stretch' is an understatement. By that logic, every system that has any degree of social hierarchy to it, no matter how loosely defined, is 'feudalism'.


--------------------


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 1
    #26359477 - 12/03/19 03:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
You prefer the current failing system to the failing system of the old USSR.





You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions.

All the other economic systems prohibits people to think outside of the box and this inevitably will slow down the economy, technological advancements and happiness among the people (to name a few).

Inequality of wealth is not necessarily the fault of the system or corruption but the problem lies much deeper than this.

Broadly shared power is also not the answer to the problem as that can skew the power of corruption even further in favour of the corrupted people in power.

A good start will be to get a hierarchy of competence, honest and law abiding people in the correct positions. But how do you measure "good" people or competence? This equation will differ for everyone...

Do you see where I am going with this?
At the end of the day there will not be a (perfect) system that works for everyone as we are all different in interest, needs, productivity etc.
But capitalism at least encourage individualism and the hardworking people will get rewarded for the work they put in.




That's cool.  But what if you were someone with a heart condition or got into a terrible car accident and couldn't afford to get high quality healthcare?  That you might prefer the USSR's version of freedom to USA's.

They both leave much to be desired.

There is no scientific reason everybody can't be basically free and live in societies that have vast publicly available resources like universal health insurance at the same time.

All criticisms of USSR and China and Pol Pot and every other socialist boogeyman are best classified as the problems with having totalitarian dictators.

"You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions."

There were people realizing freedom within the USSR.  People existed there who were doing exactly what they wanted to do with their lives.  Great scientists, musicians, athletes, space explorers, etc.  Some people hated their goddamned lives.

Is it so different than in North America?

And what is the nature of this freedom, anyways?  When you understand that any fate you can realize will be entirely conditioned by the circumstances of the world you exist in, you see the wisdom in creating a just society free from domination.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359479 - 12/03/19 03:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You don't think the definitions of these things change and evolve over time...
Society evolves constantly.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle] * 1
    #26359487 - 12/03/19 04:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Pretty ridiculous to say that a term created to describe a historical system of governing has "changed over time". It obviously has not.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359501 - 12/03/19 04:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Where does feudalism stop and colonialism Begin?

Isnt colonialism really just feudalism on an international scale?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
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"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359505 - 12/03/19 04:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359509 - 12/03/19 04:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Why not, colonialism, and feudalism are alike in that they are ran by monarchs....

There is definitely some common ground there.....


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 04:17 PM)


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359518 - 12/03/19 04:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

:skeptical:


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359526 - 12/03/19 04:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

We can agree to disagree

Thank you for being civil


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"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle] * 2
    #26359575 - 12/03/19 04:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The lords of Feudalism could only dream of the power corporations have. One things for certain, our present government has showed willful ignorance in protecting us from them.


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
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And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26359595 - 12/03/19 05:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

In what way are corporations more powerful than total rulers?


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359617 - 12/03/19 05:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

MONEY IS POWER.......


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"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
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chaos and decay"
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359633 - 12/03/19 05:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

How about something like the United Fruit Company's influence over uncle sam in dealing with the nation of Guatemala, where it was operating in a fashion that compromised their interests.

The response to the democratic government of Jacabo Arbenz buying much of their unused land holdings and distributing it to the landless was a bloody coup that saw terror campaigns where socially significant people were captured, tortured to death, then their mutilated bodies were dumped from helicopters over urban areas.  That's a pretty creative fear factory!

Arbenz's price for the unused land holdings was the amount the foreigner's declared it to be worth on their own tax filings.  I don't even have to say it, do I?

Anyways, that was the last move for him.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 3
    #26359643 - 12/03/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




This is hands down the laziest take in modern politics.

“I don’t know shit about any of these ideologies so it’s clear the one that exists now is best.”


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26359667 - 12/03/19 05:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Corporate coups in banana republics isn't feudalism either.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359791 - 12/03/19 06:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
Where does feudalism stop and colonialism Begin?

Isnt colonialism really just feudalism on an international scale?




I think most major powers practiced Mercantilism during the colonial period.  Something like a feudal/capitalist hybrid I think.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26359806 - 12/03/19 07:02 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Case in point

The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?
Through taxes and tribute....

The British empire didn't really come to an end until India got its independence.

The "CROWN JEWEL" of the British empire..


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26359807 - 12/03/19 07:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think I had ever heard that term being used to describe apolitical system...

Thank you for educating me <3


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 07:07 PM)


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26360158 - 12/03/19 10:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Feudalism was about a monarch reigning supreme and giving the nation's land to his buds and family, the aristocracy.



Feudalism is basically governenance through granting favors.  The rise of capitalism is also a really messy concept that didn't really arise out of a particular period of time as much as it's just sort of a label that some historians use to compartmentalize a social transformation that more or less goes back to the invention of agriculture.  Though if you wanted to focus on more recent factors I guess that you could get away with only going as far back as the Treaty of Westphalia.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26360214 - 12/03/19 11:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
You prefer the current failing system to the failing system of the old USSR.





You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions.

All the other economic systems prohibits people to think outside of the box and this inevitably will slow down the economy, technological advancements and happiness among the people (to name a few).

Inequality of wealth is not necessarily the fault of the system or corruption but the problem lies much deeper than this.

Broadly shared power is also not the answer to the problem as that can skew the power of corruption even further in favour of the corrupted people in power.

A good start will be to get a hierarchy of competence, honest and law abiding people in the correct positions. But how do you measure "good" people or competence? This equation will differ for everyone...

Do you see where I am going with this?
At the end of the day there will not be a (perfect) system that works for everyone as we are all different in interest, needs, productivity etc.
But capitalism at least encourage individualism and the hardworking people will get rewarded for the work they put in.




That's cool.  But what if you were someone with a heart condition or got into a terrible car accident and couldn't afford to get high quality healthcare?  That you might prefer the USSR's version of freedom to USA's.

They both leave much to be desired.

There is no scientific reason everybody can't be basically free and live in societies that have vast publicly available resources like universal health insurance at the same time.

All criticisms of USSR and China and Pol Pot and every other socialist boogeyman are best classified as the problems with having totalitarian dictators.

"You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions."

There were people realizing freedom within the USSR.  People existed there who were doing exactly what they wanted to do with their lives.  Great scientists, musicians, athletes, space explorers, etc.  Some people hated their goddamned lives.

Is it so different than in North America?

And what is the nature of this freedom, anyways?  When you understand that any fate you can realize will be entirely conditioned by the circumstances of the world you exist in, you see the wisdom in creating a just society free from domination.




John, I agree with you entirely. I am not arguing that Capitalism is the answer to all problems just that it is better than the alternatives.
Equal opportunity is better than equal outcome.


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OfflineLRK
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26360215 - 12/03/19 11:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




This is hands down the laziest take in modern politics.

“I don’t know shit about any of these ideologies so it’s clear the one that exists now is best.”




This is hands down the laziest response on any post.

"Making up claims that is not supported by facts."


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26360238 - 12/04/19 12:22 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Equal opportunity is better than equal outcome.



What do you mean "equal outcome"?  Only the smartest get to rocket scientists under communism, and only the most talented get to be performance artists.


--------------------
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360255 - 12/04/19 12:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well that is exactly my point.
It is to dismiss differential outcomes based on abilities.
So it does not matter what your talent is and how "valuable" you are to society your outcome is the same as another.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26360291 - 12/04/19 01:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"WE'RE ALL DESTINED TO ROT"

ALL THE SAME..


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26360293 - 12/04/19 01:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Whats the point of living if you don't enjoy yourself...

Were all fucked..... more or less...


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26360343 - 12/04/19 02:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?



Yes, you are wrong.  A lot of your heroic explorers were basically fugitives from the law.  Cortes didn't burn his ships to discourage cowardice.  He burned his ships because he didn't want the authorities to track him down.  I forget whether it was him or Pizarro who was on the run from the governor of Cuba though...

There was also a lot of (Christian) hatred of the infidel involved.  A big, huge motivator in European exploration was to make contact with legendary, lost Christian kingdoms.  And there wasn't really much in the way of allegiance to a nation among Europeans back then.  Monarchs were more like provincial authorities who you were forced to deal with on a case by case basis.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26360351 - 12/04/19 02:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Cuba became a Spanish colony because the Europeans loved sugar cane and tobacco....

But you're right
Im sure it was kind of like Alaska is now....
A lawless frontier where a criminal can easily evade the law and basically do what they want.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/04/19 02:49 AM)


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26360365 - 12/04/19 03:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Cuba became a Spanish colony because the Spanish expeditions made contact with the people who lived there first and those people didn't really have any social institutions that are comparable to what you'd call a government.  It's not that they didn't have some sort of a society with customs andlaws as much as it is that the sort of social structure that you take for granted as normal was entirely alien to them.  It led to one-sided, exploitative relationships but it was more like the Spanish nonchalantly expanding into what they saw as a vacuum full of misguided souls (specifically, misguided souls) who had to be subjugated for their own good.  The Spanish were pretty goddammed crazy.  Isabella, of Queen Isabella and Ferdinand, was pretty convinced that she was destined to give birth to the second coming of Jesus Christ and Ferdinand wasn't that much more grounded in reality.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26360495 - 12/04/19 06:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Enlil you better not ban me for pointing out that Buckomcdoogle is clearly underaged and has wasted 3 pages of our time on absolutely nothing. This thread has no point, makes no sense, and it has meandered nonsensically the whole time. It is just people giving elementary micro-history lessons to a man who skipped every day of high school and is still in no mood to do any learning


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 3
    #26360552 - 12/04/19 07:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

In capitalist societies, your personal outcome is largely decided by luck.

You could be the most brilliant person in the world, but if you're born to dirt poor minority parents in some shitty school district in the ass end of Kentucky, there's a solid 50/50 chance you'll be in jail before you reach adulthood. You could be more or less retarded, and if you're born to a CEO and a lawyer in the nice part of town, you're not ever going to earn less than 75k a year.

Feudalism simply codifies this. A feudalistic society runs on personal loyalty and blood relations. You're born in a certain class with certain connections, and you stay there, regardless of your personal ability.

Socialism tries to put everyone on equal footing. Much like democracy, however, it sows the seeds of its own destruction. Paradox of tolerance and all that.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos] * 1
    #26360567 - 12/04/19 08:04 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?



Yes, you are wrong.  A lot of your heroic explorers were basically fugitives from the law.  Cortes didn't burn his ships to discourage cowardice.  He burned his ships because he didn't want the authorities to track him down.  I forget whether it was him or Pizarro who was on the run from the governor of Cuba though...

There was also a lot of (Christian) hatred of the infidel involved.  A big, huge motivator in European exploration was to make contact with legendary, lost Christian kingdoms.  And there wasn't really much in the way of allegiance to a nation among Europeans back then.  Monarchs were more like provincial authorities who you were forced to deal with on a case by case basis.



Mmm.. I do subscribe to the notion that Cortes destroyed his ships (except for one, you're forgetting, which was sent directly back to King Charles rather than Velasquez, his superior) in order to discourage his men from sailing back to Cuba rather than go through with a conquest of the Aztecs. He wanted to found his own colony in order to get out from under the rule of Governor Velasquez. Which brings me to the point of him being "just a fugitive" which is a bit of misrepresentation. He was given direct orders by the Governor of Cuba to conquer Mexico and at the absolute last second, the order was revoked due to their petty beef. He ignored this and went anyway. So, yes, illegal, and yes, on the run from the law, but the expedition was not some fugitive escape plan. It was just performing a military order despite it being revoked last minute.

Now back to the ships. Cortes' plan was to march inland. His path was very wiggly and through very rough terrain, so the location of his landed ships would've been pretty inconsequential to his discovery by Spanish forces, which he very well was expecting have to fight eventually once they caught up with him, which was pretty inevitable. So it was really the opposite reason that he destroyed them. It wasn't to evade the authorities, it was because he knew he would have to face the authorities, and knew it would be a hard sell to get his men to stick around if they had to fight their own countrymen before a reckless invasion of an alien empire.

Which brings me to the national identity. You are confused. At that time there certainly WAS a feeling of national identity that was in contrast to the middle ages. After the Treaty of Westphalia, which was entire generations before colonialism even began, national identities became to develop more and more, and the concept of what is closer to our modern idea of a nation state is, was formed. Monarchs were not "provincial authorities". They were the rulers of nations.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360574 - 12/04/19 08:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Good article.  I posted one about their earlier work some time back in a discussion of whether or not IQ is a good predictor of financial success.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360579 - 12/04/19 08:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure the current scientific consensus for the US is that the most important factor in your lifelong wellbeing and financial success is the amount of money in your daddy's wallet.

So, vaguely feudalistic. Except loyalty and blood is replaced by benjamins.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360583 - 12/04/19 08:15 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Daddy's money is the same thing as luck.  It isn't as though anyone has any control over who their parents are.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360592 - 12/04/19 08:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I'm pretty sure the current scientific consensus for the US is that the most important factor in your lifelong wellbeing and financial success is the amount of money in your daddy's wallet.

So, vaguely feudalistic. Except loyalty and blood is replaced by benjamins.



It is certainly not a medieval concept that being born into a wealthy family will make it easier to live a prosperous life. How one could even compare that to a medieval government system just because both have some broad relation to family dynasties is beyond me


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360599 - 12/04/19 08:22 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's more a medieval concept than a post-enlightenment concept. It sure as shit isn't a meritocratic concept.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Daddy's money is the same thing as luck.  It isn't as though anyone has any control over who their parents are.




True, but I think it's worth separating the two. There's bitcoin millionaire luck and there's trust fund baby luck. Both are luck, but one is less voluntary.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360613 - 12/04/19 08:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It is arguably a universal concept as old as society itself. It goes without saying that being born into wealth and prestige make your life and future opportunities better, regardless of any kind of inheritance system, which there certainly would've been one almost regardless of where you are in the world at what time. Wanting to ensure success for the future generations of your family and pass on wealth and property to your offspring is not feudalistic. And I do not believe it is a good precedent to set to forbid familial inheritance due to some thinly veiled attempt at adhering to 'meritocratic' ideals..


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360614 - 12/04/19 08:31 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So some people should be a little bit more equal than others. Got it.

Weren't you arguing that the US *should* regress to Feudalism a couple months back?


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360616 - 12/04/19 08:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Trying to argue that a person getting possessions passed on to them by deceased relatives as an example of immoral inequality is pretty hilarious. New plan, have the government take all family heirlooms and houses from dead grandmas and steal all the savings she didn't spend from her bank account. Next step, meritocracy lol.

No, I wasnt. Definitely thinking of someone else.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360620 - 12/04/19 08:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I never said immoral inequality, I simply said inequality. I don't really care about what's moral.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360629 - 12/04/19 08:44 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So badass dude, hella nihilist. So what exactly are you arguing? That successful people passing wealth to their offspring = feudalism? What's next, me sharing my groceries with my brother is kinda like socialism?


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360631 - 12/04/19 08:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't be opposed to an estate tax of 100% with exemptions for a family home valued at $1 million or less and other assets totaling no more than $500,000


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360634 - 12/04/19 08:46 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I wouldn't be opposed to an estate tax of 100% with exemptions for a family home valued at $1 million or less and other assets totaling no more than $500,000



Would have to do family farms as well


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360635 - 12/04/19 08:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think it sets a bad precendent that succeful people get a limit to how much they can spread their wealth to their loved ones were they to die. Very shakey territory to start playing around in imo.

And yes, as Yang just pointed out, there is an immense amount of grey area here. Lots of sentimental things that are taken or not taken because of a presumably arbitrary valuing made presumably by the government who would confiscate it. Not at all a fun path to go down, hella dystopian.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360638 - 12/04/19 08:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
So badass dude, hella nihilist. So what exactly are you arguing? That successful people passing wealth to their offspring = feudalism? What's next, me sharing my groceries with my brother is kinda like socialism?




I think I was pretty clear that inheritance is a fundamental symbol of inequality.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #26360641 - 12/04/19 08:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

We already live in a dystopia wherein the accident of your birth largely dictates your lot in life and the effect is cumulative.

Edit: We've abolished nobility and replaced it with a system that inexorably moves towards it's restoration


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26360648 - 12/04/19 08:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




This is hands down the laziest take in modern politics.

“I don’t know shit about any of these ideologies so it’s clear the one that exists now is best.”




This is hands down the laziest response on any post.

"Making up claims that is not supported by facts."




Ok you go ahead and start by using facts to support your claims that

- history has “proved” over and over that socialism doesn’t work
- that socialism always leads to some form of communism (???)
- that capitalism is the easy best choice


Hell maybe you can just define the terms to start with.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360660 - 12/04/19 09:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The ant that was born in a successful ant colony is living in a dystopia because there are ants born in unsuccessful ant colonies.

I just find this whole concept to be an incredibly vague and not very solid complaint on equality, and find it even more ridiculous that it was originally brought up as Kryptos trying to draw parallels with feudalism and modern society. It is pointless to try and shift it now to "well its a symbol of inequality". I mean, yeah, some people are born into better lives than others. I wouldn't really consider that as being what is referred to when speaking on equality amongst humans and am confused as to why you would bring up that ethical argument in the middle of a argument about feudalism.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360671 - 12/04/19 09:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No, the ant that was born in an ant colony is living in what I would consider to be a dystopia because of genetically enforced societal roles.

We humans are enlightened, so instead of genetically enforced societal roles we have family wealth-enforced societal roles.

Nobility and feudalism is somewhere in between.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360683 - 12/04/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not talking about ants or colonies.  I'm not talking about symbols.  I do agree that it is a slight digression from feudalism as a topic.  That said, I don't think the concept is terribly abstract. 

2 people are born.  Person A has parents with assets totaling $5 billion.  Person B has parents with assets totaling $5.  It isn't hard to see how this is likely to perpetuate itself until there is clear social stratification by birthright rather than merit/talent/etc.

That's all I'm saying.  Capitalism may have been meritocratic on day one (obviously it wasn't), but unless subsequent generations start at 0 (or any other baseline) the mechanism I've described above becomes inevitable without some counter-balancing mechanism


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360684 - 12/04/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

That colonies success was not genetically enforced and an ant being born into a virtually destroyed ant colony is not a fault of its genetics, it was just what happened. How you think it is less dystopian to have a government run confiscation of familial wealth just seems like a really silly argument to me and, again, pretty irrelevant to the thread.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360689 - 12/04/19 09:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So, the government has no business helping those that, through a cruel twist of fate, were born into unfortunate circumstances? Not even to hand out free bootstraps?


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360690 - 12/04/19 09:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I'm not talking about ants or colonies.  I'm not talking about symbols.  I do agree that it is a slight digression from feudalism as a topic.  That said, I don't think the concept is terribly abstract. 

2 people are born.  Person A has parents with assets totaling $5 billion.  Person B has parents with assets totaling $5.  It isn't hard to see how this is likely to perpetuate itself until there is clear social stratification by birthright rather than merit/talent/etc.

That's all I'm saying.  Capitalism may have been meritocratic on day one (obviously it wasn't), but unless subsequent generations start at 0 (or any other baseline) the mechanism I've described above becomes inevitable without some counter-balancing mechanism



I do not believe that counter-balance is having forced confiscation of wealth upon death and caps on how much you can give your loved ones. The existence of meritocracy is simply against nature imo. There will always be bias, always be nepotism, always be preference based on things like family status, charisma, looks, other shit that just cannot be forced out of society with any degree of government overlordship. I think it of course makes sense to have estate tax for ungodly amounts of wealth and do not believe in perpetuating the cycle of huge hordes of money sitting in family bank accounts doing nothing for generation after generation. But I do not think it is at all reasonable to argue that generational inheritance and success gained through the support of successful loved ones is inherently an example of a dystopian society, or one based on inequality.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360693 - 12/04/19 09:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
So, the government has no business helping those that, through a cruel twist of fate, were born into unfortunate circumstances? Not even to hand out free bootstraps?



Government funds going towards the support of citizens is a pretty incomparable dynamic to the government confiscating funds from families because it was technically earned through their parents work rather than their own, wouldn't you say


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 1
    #26360695 - 12/04/19 09:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
I don't know why you would insist on trying to twist my sentence, even after I have told you what I said is "in some form of communism". What I mean by that is that it is inheriting some traits from it eventually.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Why do you want to disregard it just because it's from Africa or you have a lack of knowledge about the continent?

In any case, you are missing the point of my post and choose to fixate on one small part.
The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.




I didn't twist your sentences. I wanted you to give an example of what you stated to be a general rule, that took place in Europe, Asia, or North and South America because I have studied the political history in those continents for decades. 

You made a statement that you obviously can not support. If it only applies to some parts of Africa you should have said that to begin with and I wouldn't be calling you out on it. Like many new posters here, you need to learn that people will respond by telling you to back up what you said. In your original post you made a distinction  between socialism and communism. Just now you said they are both flawed systems that has been proven without exception. As it applies to socialism, that is nonsense.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #26360710 - 12/04/19 09:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not suggesting that we could eliminate every source of opportunity inequality.  We could limit inheritance though.
maybe 1.5 million isn't the right number.  I feel that could be debated.  What should be obvious to anyone is that unchecked generational wealth can only lead to a greater and greater disparity between the opportunity afforded those lucky enough to get rich the old fashioned way and everyone else, regardless of talent, skill, elbow grease or anything else.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360711 - 12/04/19 09:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So, the government has no business helping those that, through a cruel twist of fate, were born into unfortunate circumstances? Not even to hand out free bootstraps?



Government funds going towards the support of citizens is a pretty incomparable dynamic to the government confiscating funds from families because it was technically earned through their parents work rather than their own, wouldn't you say




Yes, and I think your ant colony example was also pretty off-topic. If anything, based on your followup, I think you're either arguing that compounding family wealth is not only good, but it would be permissible for someone to use their family wealth to financially destroy rivals and leave them destitute. Or you're talking about banning war between ant colonies.

Either way, do you have a problem with wealth compounding through generations? Because you seem to argue both yes and no pretty consistently.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360736 - 12/04/19 09:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It was pointing out that it is a natural fact of a living thing that sometimes you're born into a pretty comfy situation, sometimes you're born into shit, and it has nothing to do feudalism or capitalism or anything. It is just an unavoidable fact of life.

Also,
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think you're either arguing that compounding familywealth is not only good, but it would be permissible for someone to use their family wealth to financially destroy rivals and leave them destitute. Or you're talking about banning war between ant colonies



Wtf are you talking about lol. Im beginning to think your levels of mental stability are not sound enough for me to continue responding


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360739 - 12/04/19 09:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, it is definitely a problem. One that is probably pretty impossible to tackle with any degree of efficiency or cut-and-dry morality, but a problem nonetheless. I was caught up in the feudalism and dystopia thing. I think both those comparisons were just ridiculous. Then again, Im the one who mentioned dystopian societies iirc lol


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360771 - 12/04/19 10:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This begs the question of what is 'socialism'?

Hard core capitalists like to call the European model 'socialism', but many economists reject that.

I thought socialism is where the people of a country own all the means of production, and if that is privately owned it's not really socialism?




Orthodox Marxism of the 19th and early 20th century had clear definitions but I don't know of anyone who has defined socialism that way for 50 years. Marx did define socialism as public ownership of the means of production, and communism as the ideal state that followed which was marked by "the withering away of the state". The latter is now viewed as being as realistic as believing in heaven.

I think we all agree that every society has a mixed economy. Even Lenin did business with American industrialist Armand Hammer. Current definitions define capitalism and socialism by the private/public mix, which is about the same thing as competitiveness/cooperation mix.  Where attempts at socialism have worked best public ownership of the means of production has focused on social welfare.

There is no true socialism, communism or capitalism.

In modern times communism is viewed as a tendency toward totalitarianism and socialism a tendency toward democracy. I think we also agree that capitalism, at it's best, has only a tendency toward democracy.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26361314 - 12/04/19 03:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

Buckomcdoogle said:
The whole purpose of the colonies was to better the crown, am I wrong?



Yes, you are wrong.  A lot of your heroic explorers were basically fugitives from the law.  Cortes didn't burn his ships to discourage cowardice.  He burned his ships because he didn't want the authorities to track him down.  I forget whether it was him or Pizarro who was on the run from the governor of Cuba though...

There was also a lot of (Christian) hatred of the infidel involved.  A big, huge motivator in European exploration was to make contact with legendary, lost Christian kingdoms.  And there wasn't really much in the way of allegiance to a nation among Europeans back then.  Monarchs were more like provincial authorities who you were forced to deal with on a case by case basis.



Mmm.. I do subscribe to the notion that Cortes destroyed his ships (except for one, you're forgetting, which was sent directly back to King Charles rather than Velasquez, his superior) in order to discourage his men from sailing back to Cuba rather than go through with a conquest of the Aztecs. He wanted to found his own colony in order to get out from under the rule of Governor Velasquez. Which brings me to the point of him being "just a fugitive" which is a bit of misrepresentation. He was given direct orders by the Governor of Cuba to conquer Mexico and at the absolute last second, the order was revoked due to their petty beef. He ignored this and went anyway. So, yes, illegal, and yes, on the run from the law, but the expedition was not some fugitive escape plan. It was just performing a military order despite it being revoked last minute.

Now back to the ships. Cortes' plan was to march inland. His path was very wiggly and through very rough terrain, so the location of his landed ships would've been pretty inconsequential to his discovery by Spanish forces, which he very well was expecting have to fight eventually once they caught up with him, which was pretty inevitable. So it was really the opposite reason that he destroyed them. It wasn't to evade the authorities, it was because he knew he would have to face the authorities, and knew it would be a hard sell to get his men to stick around if they had to fight their own countrymen before a reckless invasion of an alien empire.

Which brings me to the national identity. You are confused. At that time there certainly WAS a feeling of national identity that was in contrast to the middle ages. After the Treaty of Westphalia, which was entire generations before colonialism even began, national identities became to develop more and more, and the concept of what is closer to our modern idea of a nation state is, was formed. Monarchs were not "provincial authorities". They were the rulers of nations.



Cortes died a full century before the Treaty of Westphalia.

Mexico wasn't an unexplored wilderness, and there were already Spaniards living there and intermingling with the natives.  That's why Cortes's path was so wiggly.  They weren't trapsing through wilderness as much as they were moving from point of contact to point of contact and sort of being steered by (indigenous, more or less) people who basically wanted help breaking up the Aztecs' dominion.  Cortes wasn't really on a mission to conquer Mexico as much as he was more or less on a quest with some nebulous goal of discovering treasure in mind.  It was a popular thing to do back then, especially if you were basically just a criminal who wanted to increase your social standing.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos] * 1
    #26361380 - 12/04/19 04:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"Those who can convince you of absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"

-voltaire.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26361392 - 12/04/19 04:29 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I would argue History is probably one of the most expansive things you could ever learn.

I have always been more interested in post industrial history than anything else.


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the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/04/19 04:35 PM)


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26361404 - 12/04/19 04:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Cortes died a full century before the Treaty of Westphalia.




Shit you are totally right about that, I was thinking 1400s some reason


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26361534 - 12/04/19 05:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26361667 - 12/04/19 07:10 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There were no H-bombs used in Japan.  Both of those were straight-up fission bombs.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26361864 - 12/04/19 09:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I stand corrected. H to A.
In any event we were itching to use it.


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26361883 - 12/04/19 09:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It easy to say things like "under mao millions have died". And for the most part... conservatives do. Like... a lot.

But what if you looked at America from the same futuristic, non-personally intertwined perspective? Started constant wars? Created nonstop famine and warzones through its own trade practices. The treatment of the mentally ill. Allowed some to starve to death in a land of such incredible wealth. Allowed deaths and pain/suffering in those unable to afford healthcare. Nuked 2 whole cities.

I'm not saying its the same as starvation of millions... I just think saying that shouldnt alone discount an ideology. Every ideology that has existed by definition has failed.


And then you look at capitalism vs socialism. America and most countries are a combination of both. It is to what degree towards socialism that we debate. For some bizarre reason in America ... healthcare is the battleground. Healthcare for some reason is evil socialism. Evil Stalin coming to destroy our civilization as we know it!!!! They said the same exact bullshit about legalizing weed and gay marriage.


No matter what the change is.... corporate types are ready to tell you its the end of the world if we make that change.




Personally I think the problem with capitalism is the slow take over by big money interests. I think every 5-10 years everyone in power should be removed and elect new middle class people.

Hell take money completely out of politics force everyone who wants to be in office to be broke.

If we were SERIOUS about making a good fucking country.... youd have to have 0 dollars to your name when you took office. But the HUMANITY! Taking away someones MONEY?!?!?! My god!!!!


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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26362107 - 12/05/19 12:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

LRK said:
I don't know why you would insist on trying to twist my sentence, even after I have told you what I said is "in some form of communism". What I mean by that is that it is inheriting some traits from it eventually.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Why do you want to disregard it just because it's from Africa or you have a lack of knowledge about the continent?

In any case, you are missing the point of my post and choose to fixate on one small part.
The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.




I didn't twist your sentences. I wanted you to give an example of what you stated to be a general rule, that took place in Europe, Asia, or North and South America because I have studied the political history in those continents for decades. 

You made a statement that you obviously can not support. If it only applies to some parts of Africa you should have said that to begin with and I wouldn't be calling you out on it. Like many new posters here, you need to learn that people will respond by telling you to back up what you said. In your original post you made a distinction  between socialism and communism. Just now you said they are both flawed systems that has been proven without exception. As it applies to socialism, that is nonsense.




Brian, I take no offense and don't see it as being called out, I am open for discussion. This is how we learn and evolve our thinking.

Firstly I think I made less of a distinction and more of an analogy between socialism and communism.

What would you consider China's model to be?
They claim they are a socialist country with Chinese characteristics.
But are they really socialist or communist?
Heck they even have privately owned companies does this make them capitalists?

The point is it is difficult to assign one model to a specific country but it has been shown over the years that countries that adopt the more socialist/communist models fail (Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela to name a few).

Even Lenin said "The Goal of Socialism is Communism". :smile:

The Nordic countries were successful before they built their welfare states.
This allowed the governments to have generous programs.
It was not because of the government benefits that wealth was built.
The governments also don't interfere with free markets.
There are more facts like this which make the Nordic countries bad examples of successful "socialist" countries.


Edited by LRK (12/05/19 12:55 AM)


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26362117 - 12/05/19 01:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What country would you say "Did it best"? and why?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26362206 - 12/05/19 03:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



This ignorant perspective explains a great deal of your post history lol, specifically regarding the military.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26362671 - 12/05/19 10:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Rename the thread Let’s Talk Socialism


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26362768 - 12/05/19 10:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



This ignorant perspective explains a great deal of your post history lol, specifically regarding the military.




The H bomb in Japan LOL. You're off by seven years and I don't know how many thousand miles.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26363014 - 12/05/19 01:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

He's off by one element.  And in a sense it's kind of irrelevant to the whole discussion around the ethics of actually using nuclear explosives on Japan.  It's more like calling C4 a low explosive than historical revisionism.  :shrug:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26363135 - 12/05/19 02:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There sorta is fuedalism now.  Rich people live well above the majority of the population.  They have private security, sometimes the secret service. They get more govt security and favors.

Their children get every advantage as well.

Yet we do have a quasi public govt that sorta looks for citizens interests.  At the same time more of our Govt is decided by rich people and rich organizations.  Rarely do poor people get elected to office.

It is indeed a rich mans world.  Average people simply have some protections.  Until post nuclear war or severe finical collapse.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26363157 - 12/05/19 02:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Erik Prince (Blackwater) and Betsy Devos (Trumps education secretary)

Are brother and sister.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26363241 - 12/05/19 03:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
There sorta is fuedalism now.  Rich people live well above the majority of the population.  They have private security, sometimes the secret service. They get more govt security and favors.

Their children get every advantage as well.

Yet we do have a quasi public govt that sorta looks for citizens interests.  At the same time more of our Govt is decided by rich people and rich organizations.  Rarely do poor people get elected to office.

It is indeed a rich mans world.  Average people simply have some protections.  Until post nuclear war or severe finical collapse.



Feudalism is an actual form of government.  It's less like social inequality and more like the paradigm behind Trump's concept of diplomacy.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: chibiabos]
    #26363339 - 12/05/19 04:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I do not confuse a system of control with Govt.  To me Govt should be striving for perfect democracy not total control.

I know slavery when I see it.  That is what we still have and it's not karma.  It is luck and those with more luck have more control.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26363546 - 12/05/19 05:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
There sorta is fuedalism now.  Rich people live well above the majority of the population.  They have private security, sometimes the secret service. They get more govt security and favors.

Their children get every advantage as well.

Yet we do have a quasi public govt that sorta looks for citizens interests.  At the same time more of our Govt is decided by rich people and rich organizations.  Rarely do poor people get elected to office.

It is indeed a rich mans world.  Average people simply have some protections.  Until post nuclear war or severe finical collapse.





Its kind of inevitable with humans automatically wanting to lift up their children as high as they can reach. Pretty crazy to think about it.

Because you cant tell them not to help their kids out.... but at the same time its fucked up that the wealthy have direct benefit from lineage. Its almost like I'm hitting a cognitive dissonance barrier.

I wonder if its because I dont have kids and cant fully be on board with it yet.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Oldnameforgotten] * 2
    #26363555 - 12/05/19 05:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Apart from hunter gatherer societies all of human society has been a pyramid. This is why its important to push for more egalitarianism.


--------------------
https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26363560 - 12/05/19 05:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Some rich folks leave nothing to kids.

I enjoy spoiling.  If you want strong kids you will not spoil.  In my life there are good times and hard.  I suspect it is like that for all.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #26365544 - 12/06/19 05:29 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



This ignorant perspective explains a great deal of your post history lol, specifically regarding the military.





Tell me, what is ignorant about stating that history is open to interpretation?

I offer my direct experiences with active duty military service; however, this does not make me infallible nor do I crave hero worship.(just like the majority of vets out there). What have I stated that you disagree with?

Or are you basing this off my erroneous "H"?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (12/06/19 05:30 PM)


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26365611 - 12/06/19 05:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

History is very open to interpretation.  Documentaries cover a lot of ground in a small air time portion.  Books go into so much detail that it takes a lot of serious interest and a good brain.

I used to read books on Vietnam a lot.  At least one from someone who was there.  I felt the movies were sad and could identify easier not knowing the politics.

Now that I know myself better it's a real mess.  On one hand a good offense is a good defense, to a point.  On another nobody is ruling Earth and provoking is taboo.

We may never know any other way nor factual analysis of risking peace.  Odd thing is America seems to feel more secure at war.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26365790 - 12/06/19 07:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The Ken Burns Vietnam......... so fucking horrible and sad.

The really horrifying part is, those guys are our family/friends and they regularly deal with remembering trauma beyond what most of us can ever imagine.

I once had a drunk Vietnam vet tell me about the 5 guys he killed, He was drafted when he was 19 years old...

All just to save face in the eyes of the world.........


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26365805 - 12/06/19 07:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
History is open to interpretation. 
Dont get me wrong, there are some absolutes(for instance the H bomb in Japan), but I would argue, some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



This ignorant perspective explains a great deal of your post history lol, specifically regarding the military.





Tell me, what is ignorant about stating that history is open to interpretation?

I offer my direct experiences with active duty military service; however, this does not make me infallible nor do I crave hero worship.(just like the majority of vets out there). What have I stated that you disagree with?

Or are you basing this off my erroneous "H"?




Speaking for myself, it was just an honest mistake. I had to go in for a jab though.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26365941 - 12/06/19 09:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No worries.:mushroom2:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26366260 - 12/07/19 04:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It was obviously in reference to this:
Quote:

some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



It isn't a pitfall, it's the literal reason thatt history gets studied lol. I would bring up the things you said about war and the military that were crazy ignorant and naive, but you cried for a moderator last time I did


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26366365 - 12/07/19 07:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I see integrity is an issue for you.

You flamed me...that is why the moderator contacted you. In case you dont understand, that is against the forum rules. Do you have anything to refute this?

Moreover, I was referring to the historian's fallacy....that is an informal fallacy that occurs when assumptions about decision makers of late; observed events from the same perspective and information as those presently analyzing the decision....there is also presentism. Do you also refute this?

Or you could *gasp* learn, contribute, and be civil.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (12/07/19 07:27 AM)


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26367239 - 12/07/19 03:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
It was obviously in reference to this:
Quote:

some try to apply modern times to history....it is a pitfall.



It isn't a pitfall, it's the literal reason thatt history gets studied lol. I would bring up the things you said about war and the military that were crazy ignorant and naive, but you cried for a moderator last time I did




I reckon youre in the wrong here. You are attacking him because he said Hydrogen bomb in Japan? Is it REALLY that big of a deal?

His point was clearly that history was written by the victor. If you want to argue with him ... then argue with that point. Which would make you stupid to do so.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26367350 - 12/07/19 04:48 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I never said anything about the H bomb thing, what are you talking about?

That isnt even his point, dude. You trippin rn.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26370128 - 12/09/19 02:14 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Let's talk about oligarchy.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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