Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360583 - 12/04/19 08:15 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Daddy's money is the same thing as luck.  It isn't as though anyone has any control over who their parents are.


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360592 - 12/04/19 08:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I'm pretty sure the current scientific consensus for the US is that the most important factor in your lifelong wellbeing and financial success is the amount of money in your daddy's wallet.

So, vaguely feudalistic. Except loyalty and blood is replaced by benjamins.



It is certainly not a medieval concept that being born into a wealthy family will make it easier to live a prosperous life. How one could even compare that to a medieval government system just because both have some broad relation to family dynasties is beyond me


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360599 - 12/04/19 08:22 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's more a medieval concept than a post-enlightenment concept. It sure as shit isn't a meritocratic concept.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Daddy's money is the same thing as luck.  It isn't as though anyone has any control over who their parents are.




True, but I think it's worth separating the two. There's bitcoin millionaire luck and there's trust fund baby luck. Both are luck, but one is less voluntary.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360613 - 12/04/19 08:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It is arguably a universal concept as old as society itself. It goes without saying that being born into wealth and prestige make your life and future opportunities better, regardless of any kind of inheritance system, which there certainly would've been one almost regardless of where you are in the world at what time. Wanting to ensure success for the future generations of your family and pass on wealth and property to your offspring is not feudalistic. And I do not believe it is a good precedent to set to forbid familial inheritance due to some thinly veiled attempt at adhering to 'meritocratic' ideals..


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360614 - 12/04/19 08:31 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So some people should be a little bit more equal than others. Got it.

Weren't you arguing that the US *should* regress to Feudalism a couple months back?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360616 - 12/04/19 08:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Trying to argue that a person getting possessions passed on to them by deceased relatives as an example of immoral inequality is pretty hilarious. New plan, have the government take all family heirlooms and houses from dead grandmas and steal all the savings she didn't spend from her bank account. Next step, meritocracy lol.

No, I wasnt. Definitely thinking of someone else.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360620 - 12/04/19 08:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I never said immoral inequality, I simply said inequality. I don't really care about what's moral.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360629 - 12/04/19 08:44 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So badass dude, hella nihilist. So what exactly are you arguing? That successful people passing wealth to their offspring = feudalism? What's next, me sharing my groceries with my brother is kinda like socialism?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26360631 - 12/04/19 08:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't be opposed to an estate tax of 100% with exemptions for a family home valued at $1 million or less and other assets totaling no more than $500,000


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360634 - 12/04/19 08:46 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I wouldn't be opposed to an estate tax of 100% with exemptions for a family home valued at $1 million or less and other assets totaling no more than $500,000



Would have to do family farms as well


--------------------
https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360635 - 12/04/19 08:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think it sets a bad precendent that succeful people get a limit to how much they can spread their wealth to their loved ones were they to die. Very shakey territory to start playing around in imo.

And yes, as Yang just pointed out, there is an immense amount of grey area here. Lots of sentimental things that are taken or not taken because of a presumably arbitrary valuing made presumably by the government who would confiscate it. Not at all a fun path to go down, hella dystopian.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360638 - 12/04/19 08:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
So badass dude, hella nihilist. So what exactly are you arguing? That successful people passing wealth to their offspring = feudalism? What's next, me sharing my groceries with my brother is kinda like socialism?




I think I was pretty clear that inheritance is a fundamental symbol of inequality.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #26360641 - 12/04/19 08:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

We already live in a dystopia wherein the accident of your birth largely dictates your lot in life and the effect is cumulative.

Edit: We've abolished nobility and replaced it with a system that inexorably moves towards it's restoration


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 10 hours, 13 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK]
    #26360648 - 12/04/19 08:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
...That and a broad distribution of wealth.




So what are you suggesting, Socialism?
If you are history has proved it over and over that socialism don't work and almost always transforms into some form of communism at some point.

Capitalism is not perfect but it sure is better than the alternatives.




This is hands down the laziest take in modern politics.

“I don’t know shit about any of these ideologies so it’s clear the one that exists now is best.”




This is hands down the laziest response on any post.

"Making up claims that is not supported by facts."




Ok you go ahead and start by using facts to support your claims that

- history has “proved” over and over that socialism doesn’t work
- that socialism always leads to some form of communism (???)
- that capitalism is the easy best choice


Hell maybe you can just define the terms to start with.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360660 - 12/04/19 09:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The ant that was born in a successful ant colony is living in a dystopia because there are ants born in unsuccessful ant colonies.

I just find this whole concept to be an incredibly vague and not very solid complaint on equality, and find it even more ridiculous that it was originally brought up as Kryptos trying to draw parallels with feudalism and modern society. It is pointless to try and shift it now to "well its a symbol of inequality". I mean, yeah, some people are born into better lives than others. I wouldn't really consider that as being what is referred to when speaking on equality amongst humans and am confused as to why you would bring up that ethical argument in the middle of a argument about feudalism.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360671 - 12/04/19 09:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No, the ant that was born in an ant colony is living in what I would consider to be a dystopia because of genetically enforced societal roles.

We humans are enlightened, so instead of genetically enforced societal roles we have family wealth-enforced societal roles.

Nobility and feudalism is somewhere in between.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360683 - 12/04/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not talking about ants or colonies.  I'm not talking about symbols.  I do agree that it is a slight digression from feudalism as a topic.  That said, I don't think the concept is terribly abstract. 

2 people are born.  Person A has parents with assets totaling $5 billion.  Person B has parents with assets totaling $5.  It isn't hard to see how this is likely to perpetuate itself until there is clear social stratification by birthright rather than merit/talent/etc.

That's all I'm saying.  Capitalism may have been meritocratic on day one (obviously it wasn't), but unless subsequent generations start at 0 (or any other baseline) the mechanism I've described above becomes inevitable without some counter-balancing mechanism


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360684 - 12/04/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

That colonies success was not genetically enforced and an ant being born into a virtually destroyed ant colony is not a fault of its genetics, it was just what happened. How you think it is less dystopian to have a government run confiscation of familial wealth just seems like a really silly argument to me and, again, pretty irrelevant to the thread.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKryptos
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26360689 - 12/04/19 09:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So, the government has no business helping those that, through a cruel twist of fate, were born into unfortunate circumstances? Not even to hand out free bootstraps?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNear Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 7 days, 2 minutes
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26360690 - 12/04/19 09:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I'm not talking about ants or colonies.  I'm not talking about symbols.  I do agree that it is a slight digression from feudalism as a topic.  That said, I don't think the concept is terribly abstract. 

2 people are born.  Person A has parents with assets totaling $5 billion.  Person B has parents with assets totaling $5.  It isn't hard to see how this is likely to perpetuate itself until there is clear social stratification by birthright rather than merit/talent/etc.

That's all I'm saying.  Capitalism may have been meritocratic on day one (obviously it wasn't), but unless subsequent generations start at 0 (or any other baseline) the mechanism I've described above becomes inevitable without some counter-balancing mechanism



I do not believe that counter-balance is having forced confiscation of wealth upon death and caps on how much you can give your loved ones. The existence of meritocracy is simply against nature imo. There will always be bias, always be nepotism, always be preference based on things like family status, charisma, looks, other shit that just cannot be forced out of society with any degree of government overlordship. I think it of course makes sense to have estate tax for ungodly amounts of wealth and do not believe in perpetuating the cycle of huge hordes of money sitting in family bank accounts doing nothing for generation after generation. But I do not think it is at all reasonable to argue that generational inheritance and success gained through the support of successful loved ones is inherently an example of a dystopian society, or one based on inequality.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE
( 1 2 3 all )
amanita3 4,357 56 01/21/03 11:20 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* feudal system / indentured servetude automanM 953 4 01/07/06 10:21 PM
by automan
* So, you want to talk taxes....
( 1 2 3 all )
havatampa 3,224 56 12/04/03 09:43 AM
by havatampa
* Post deleted by Anno
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Anonymous 4,226 84 07/21/04 11:51 AM
by Swami
* Talking to The Brainwashed
( 1 2 3 all )
somebodyelse 3,087 42 06/18/03 03:22 PM
by Azmodeus
* A historical perspective on the US and chemical weapons
( 1 2 all )
Ellis Dee 3,038 28 04/07/03 06:02 PM
by Ellis Dee
* Oil War: A Marxist Perspective Annapurna1 809 9 11/12/03 04:25 PM
by Bhairabas
* Perspective and greater good. Azmodeus 511 4 08/08/03 02:39 PM
by Azmodeus

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
1,925 topic views. 3 members, 1 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 15 queries.