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OfflineLRK
Zn+1=Zn^2+C


Registered: 09/07/18
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26358795 - 12/03/19 09:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well that's not really true socialism but let's not argue the details as there are a lot of information online that will show this.

But I am not arguing the fact that Northern European countries are successful, just that it is not because of "socialism".


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 2
    #26358946 - 12/03/19 11:39 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There is never true socialism or true communism or true capitalism.

I know very little about African history, other than a long history of colonialism that IMO continues to negatively impact them long after independence.

But in the rest of the world, can you give an example of socialism transitioning into communism?


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26359104 - 12/03/19 01:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This begs the question of what is 'socialism'?

Hard core capitalists like to call the European model 'socialism', but many economists reject that.

I thought socialism is where the people of a country own all the means of production, and if that is privately owned it's not really socialism?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineLRK
Zn+1=Zn^2+C


Registered: 09/07/18
Posts: 147
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26359117 - 12/03/19 01:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know why you would insist on trying to twist my sentence, even after I have told you what I said is "in some form of communism". What I mean by that is that it is inheriting some traits from it eventually.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Why do you want to disregard it just because it's from Africa or you have a lack of knowledge about the continent?

In any case, you are missing the point of my post and choose to fixate on one small part.
The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 2
    #26359118 - 12/03/19 01:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:

The point is that socialism/communism are flawed systems and it has been proven without exception.




The USSR went from a nation with a 90 percent illiteracy rate to becoming a superpower on par with the United States.


--------------------
https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359447 - 12/03/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"You seem to not have an understanding of feudalism nor capitalism, and the diagram is obviously not at all a parallel of feudalism nor does it describe our society. Just because a society is hierarchical does not mean it is feudalistic. "

Attack the argument, not the person..........................
Just because we have the illusion of democracy doesnt mean its not feudalistic..
All the power is concentrated at the hand of people like ERIK PRINCE (Black water)

Does the president REALLY run the country?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 03:50 PM)


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359455 - 12/03/19 03:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Betsy Devos..... Trumps education secretary is related to ERIC PRINCE (BLACKWATER) and the Waltons (WAL MART)

Isnt it interesting how all of these things are connected????

Don't think that trump and Clintons aren't homies......


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359469 - 12/03/19 03:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I attacked your argument by saying it displays a lack of understanding of both systems. The more posts you make, the more obvious it becomes. Corporations having vast influence does not equate at all to a system of vassal land owners under a dynastic overlord. Just a silly comparison. Calling it a 'stretch' is an understatement. By that logic, every system that has any degree of social hierarchy to it, no matter how loosely defined, is 'feudalism'.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: LRK] * 1
    #26359477 - 12/03/19 03:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LRK said:
Quote:

JohnRainy said:
You prefer the current failing system to the failing system of the old USSR.





You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions.

All the other economic systems prohibits people to think outside of the box and this inevitably will slow down the economy, technological advancements and happiness among the people (to name a few).

Inequality of wealth is not necessarily the fault of the system or corruption but the problem lies much deeper than this.

Broadly shared power is also not the answer to the problem as that can skew the power of corruption even further in favour of the corrupted people in power.

A good start will be to get a hierarchy of competence, honest and law abiding people in the correct positions. But how do you measure "good" people or competence? This equation will differ for everyone...

Do you see where I am going with this?
At the end of the day there will not be a (perfect) system that works for everyone as we are all different in interest, needs, productivity etc.
But capitalism at least encourage individualism and the hardworking people will get rewarded for the work they put in.




That's cool.  But what if you were someone with a heart condition or got into a terrible car accident and couldn't afford to get high quality healthcare?  That you might prefer the USSR's version of freedom to USA's.

They both leave much to be desired.

There is no scientific reason everybody can't be basically free and live in societies that have vast publicly available resources like universal health insurance at the same time.

All criticisms of USSR and China and Pol Pot and every other socialist boogeyman are best classified as the problems with having totalitarian dictators.

"You might see it that way, but I prefer to have the "freedom" to do what I want and how I want with an outcome that will be directly influenced by my own decisions."

There were people realizing freedom within the USSR.  People existed there who were doing exactly what they wanted to do with their lives.  Great scientists, musicians, athletes, space explorers, etc.  Some people hated their goddamned lives.

Is it so different than in North America?

And what is the nature of this freedom, anyways?  When you understand that any fate you can realize will be entirely conditioned by the circumstances of the world you exist in, you see the wisdom in creating a just society free from domination.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359479 - 12/03/19 03:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You don't think the definitions of these things change and evolve over time...
Society evolves constantly.


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle] * 1
    #26359487 - 12/03/19 04:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Pretty ridiculous to say that a term created to describe a historical system of governing has "changed over time". It obviously has not.


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359501 - 12/03/19 04:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Where does feudalism stop and colonialism Begin?

Isnt colonialism really just feudalism on an international scale?


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359505 - 12/03/19 04:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359509 - 12/03/19 04:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Why not, colonialism, and feudalism are alike in that they are ran by monarchs....

There is definitely some common ground there.....


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



Edited by Buckomcdoogle (12/03/19 04:17 PM)


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
    #26359518 - 12/03/19 04:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

:skeptical:


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359526 - 12/03/19 04:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

We can agree to disagree

Thank you for being civil


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Buckomcdoogle] * 2
    #26359575 - 12/03/19 04:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The lords of Feudalism could only dream of the power corporations have. One things for certain, our present government has showed willful ignorance in protecting us from them.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26359595 - 12/03/19 05:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

In what way are corporations more powerful than total rulers?


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OfflineBuckomcdoogle
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359617 - 12/03/19 05:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

MONEY IS POWER.......


--------------------
"Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity"

"Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence,
the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is
chaos and decay"
"Logic leads to nihilism"



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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: Lets talk........ Feudalism...... [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26359633 - 12/03/19 05:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

How about something like the United Fruit Company's influence over uncle sam in dealing with the nation of Guatemala, where it was operating in a fashion that compromised their interests.

The response to the democratic government of Jacabo Arbenz buying much of their unused land holdings and distributing it to the landless was a bloody coup that saw terror campaigns where socially significant people were captured, tortured to death, then their mutilated bodies were dumped from helicopters over urban areas.  That's a pretty creative fear factory!

Arbenz's price for the unused land holdings was the amount the foreigner's declared it to be worth on their own tax filings.  I don't even have to say it, do I?

Anyways, that was the last move for him.


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