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 The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
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 Abolish the Senate  3
#26357159 - 12/02/19 12:55 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is no reason why a state like Wyoming should have as much of a legislative say in federal policy, with a population smaller than most major cities, as a state like California.
Like the electoral college, the Senate is an archaic creation of the white landowner class that our Constitution was created to protect, and must be abolished.
If you disagree, explain yourself.
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 Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
 
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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 YangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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christopera
Stranger
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Is there an argument for major reform of the senate?
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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.
A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.
Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things
I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Brian Jones
Club 27
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Unfortunately, abolishing it would be nearly impossible because it would require the consent of many low population states that now enjoy overrepresentation. Or more accurately it would require the cooperation of the GOP who benefits greatly from this tyranny of the few. Most of the 15 least populated states solidly back the Republicans.
The great compromise is a vestige of the 1700s. I'm sure the framers realized it would result in this imbalance, but not the extent currently exhibited by the, for instance, California vs Wyoming situation, which is the most extreme example.
What it would take IMO would be the strengthening of state powers so that the large and medium population states would see the self interest of even Republican states backing this amendment. Similarly the electoral college will lose favor with the GOP if Texas especially, and other high population red states go blue.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
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Sure it’s politically unviable but so is universal healthcare, we’ve been reduced to thought exercises which is kind of the point of destroying our broken system. But yes we won’t be able to legslate away the legislature.
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YangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Unfortunately, abolishing it would be nearly impossible because it would require the consent of many low population states that now enjoy overrepresentation. Or more accurately it would require the cooperation of the GOP who benefits greatly from this tyranny of the few. Most of the 15 least populated states solidly back the Republicans.
The great compromise is a vestige of the 1700s. I'm sure the framers realized it would result in this imbalance, but not the extent currently exhibited by the, for instance, California vs Wyoming situation, which is the most extreme example.
What it would take IMO would be the strengthening of state powers so that the large and medium population states would see the self interest of even Republican states backing this amendment. Similarly the electoral college will lose favor with the GOP if Texas especially, and other high population red states go blue.
This is also accurate 
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dreamachine
Registered: 11/17/19
Posts: 663
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Yall say this cuz you don't live in low population states right? They already have barely any say if any when it actually comes to policy. I live in Hawaii we got like 2 mill population tops. And we got no say when it comes to federal policy as it is... The state is basically a military base.
The federal government should be all but eradicated. They should leave all lawmaking up to the states and they should only focus on defending the border and assisting in inter-state affairs. Otherwise I say they have no business in policing the states, that should be done by the states themselves.
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YangSupporter
Stranger
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Giving more power to less people is not how a democratic system should work.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
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Quote:
dreamachine said:
Yall say this cuz you don't live in low population states right? They already have barely any say if any when it actually comes to policy. I live in Hawaii we got like 2 mill population tops. And we got no say when it comes to federal policy as it is... The state is basically a military base.
The federal government should be all but eradicated. They should leave all lawmaking up to the states and they should only focus on defending the border and assisting in inter-state affairs. Otherwise I say they have no business in policing the states, that should be done by the states themselves.
I’ll never understand why people think the federal government is tyrannical, and their solution is to let the states decide for themselves how tyrannical to be. We literally fought a war over this.
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YangSupporter
Stranger
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The federal government is as tyrannical as the people who occupy it. This is why electing good leaders is important.
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Sugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
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Abolish the states too while you're at it, otherwise you leave behind the reason for having electoral college and Senate. Cities and towns as well, why should NYC have a right to tax people on top of the federal taxes? Also why should California be allowed to be so big while rhode island is so small?
Congress can be just randomly picked from the population as there would be no locality to represent.
If you disagree explain yourself.
Edited by Sugabearcrisp (12/03/19 03:12 PM)
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mycosis
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,854
Loc: USSA
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Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Giving more power to less people is not how a democratic system should work.
A true democratic system would be a bloodbath.
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YangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis]
#26359380 - 12/03/19 03:22 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Giving more power to less people is not how a democratic system should work.
A true democratic system would be a bloodbath.
Thats a right wing talking point.
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mycosis
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,854
Loc: USSA
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Is it?
You don't prefer a system that strengthens minority rights?
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YangSupporter
Stranger
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis]
#26359391 - 12/03/19 03:26 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
Is it?
You don't prefer a system that strengthens minority rights?
Giving power to a minority of people is the road to authoritarianism.
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mycosis
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,854
Loc: USSA
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So you prefer majority rule and minorities can just suck on the end of a rifle then?
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YangSupporter
Stranger
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis] 1
#26359402 - 12/03/19 03:30 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
So you prefer majority rule and minorities can just suck on the end of a rifle then?
No thats why we have the civil rights act... Also your attempts to frame giving more power to everyone as a bad thing is a conservative view.
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mycosis
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,854
Loc: USSA
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You think that would have passed in a majority rules system?
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YangSupporter
Stranger
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis]
#26359416 - 12/03/19 03:36 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
You think that would have passed in a majority rules system?
Yes since the USA was changing culturally during this time period but its moot point and any restructuring of the government to become more democratic would need to ensure that no ones civil liberties or freedoms could be violated by the State.
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mycosis
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,854
Loc: USSA
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It's a moot point as long as the minority opinion doesn't get their shit pushed in by the majority. 
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dreamachine
Registered: 11/17/19
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Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis]
#26360175 - 12/03/19 10:55 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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The more power over more people you give individual the worse. I.e. federal politicians are more corruptible and their corruption effects more people. Giving more power to local authorities reduces the power of corruption and forces said corrupting elements to try and corrupt more and more people vs only have to corrupt a few senators/etc.
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koods
Ribbit
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Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis] 1
#26360352 - 12/04/19 02:53 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
Is it?
You don't prefer a system that strengthens minority rights?
A minority should have the same rights as the majority. Nobody deserves extra or less electoral power. We shouldn’t have affirmative action for voters in small states.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Quote:
dreamachine said:
The more power over more people you give individual the worse. I.e. federal politicians are more corruptible and their corruption effects more people. Giving more power to local authorities reduces the power of corruption and forces said corrupting elements to try and corrupt more and more people vs only have to corrupt a few senators/etc.
That is the opposite of the truth. Political corruption is much worse on a local and state level than the federal level.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,624
Loc: the right coast
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Quote:
dreamachine said:
The federal government should be all but eradicated. They should leave all lawmaking up to the states and they should only focus on defending the border and assisting in inter-state affairs. Otherwise I say they have no business in policing the states, that should be done by the states themselves.
This is easy to say (and imagine) when one lives in a small state, a small island state, which makes interstate commerce on a personal level impossible unless we're talking about mail order items.
Meaning, you can't drive 50 miles to a neighboring state and purchase 125 handguns to arm your white ethnostate militia. Arming your militia is easy in that other state because its legislators have enacted a law which makes it legal to buy up to 1000 handguns at one time with no background check, waiting period, or special firearms license.
Or, you can't drive 300 miles to a neighboring state in order for your GF to get an abortion because the state you live in is governed by pseudo-Christians...Xtians who made it a murder charge to get a medical procedure which removes a parasite growing in your significant other's womb, a parasite which you two can't afford to grow into a human after nine months of it robbing your GF of nutrients.
Hyperbole can be fun, eh? 
A nation as large as the USA needs at least some federal laws which supersede state laws. IMO
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis] 2
#26360655 - 12/04/19 09:00 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
Is it?
You don't prefer a system that strengthens minority rights?
In a direct democracy whites are the minority. Hence the constant pants shitting about birth rates and immigration.
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1uptoadstool
procrastinator
Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 324
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
There is no reason why a state like Wyoming should have as much of a legislative say in federal policy, with a population smaller than most major cities, as a state like California.
Sounds like somebody just realized that most of the states are red and doesn't like it. the electoral college prevents the two biggest cesspools (CA,NY) from controlling our elections and I'm completely okay with it.
Like the electoral college, the Senate is an archaic creation of the white landowner class that our Constitution was created to protect, and must be abolished.
If you disagree, explain yourself.
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Kryptos
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Giving local governments power is how you get speed trap towns, but bigger.
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dreamachine
Registered: 11/17/19
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Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Kryptos]
#26362073 - 12/05/19 12:31 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
Registered: 10/14/19
Posts: 12,769
Loc: OTD & ODD (not a pubfag)
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
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As suspected y'all just hating on the Senate because your impeachment dreams will die there as opposed to actually wanting to debate the need for Senate and the electoral college.
Butthurt that's all you are.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: relic]
#26362236 - 12/05/19 05:10 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sugabearcrisp said:
As suspected y'all just hating on the Senate because your impeachment dreams will die there as opposed to actually wanting to debate the need for Senate and the electoral college.
Butthurt that's all you are.
It may not be the case for everybody, but for most people I've chatted with on this topic, this does appear to be the case lol.
Quote:
relic said:
Quote:
dreamachine said:
The federal government should be all but eradicated. They should leave all lawmaking up to the states and they should only focus on defending the border and assisting in inter-state affairs. Otherwise I say they have no business in policing the states, that should be done by the states themselves.
This is easy to say (and imagine) when one lives in a small state, a small island state, which makes interstate commerce on a personal level impossible unless we're talking about mail order items.
Meaning, you can't drive 50 miles to a neighboring state and purchase 125 handguns to arm your white ethnostate militia. Arming your militia is easy in that other state because its legislators have enacted a law which makes it legal to buy up to 1000 handguns at one time with no background check, waiting period, or special firearms license.
Or, you can't drive 300 miles to a neighboring state in order for your GF to get an abortion because the state you live in is governed by pseudo-Christians...Xtians who made it a murder charge to get a medical procedure which removes a parasite growing in your significant other's womb, a parasite which you two can't afford to grow into a human after nine months of it robbing your GF of nutrients.
Hyperbole can be fun, eh?
A nation as large as the USA needs at least some federal laws which supersede state laws. IMO
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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Brian Jones
Club 27
Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,426
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 3 days, 9 hours
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Quote:
Sugabearcrisp said:
As suspected y'all just hating on the Senate because your impeachment dreams will die there as opposed to actually wanting to debate the need for Senate and the electoral college.
Butthurt that's all you are.
You said that because you have 134 posts. We need a height requirement around here.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Sugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
Registered: 10/14/19
Posts: 12,769
Loc: OTD & ODD (not a pubfag)
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
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christopera
Stranger
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90 days, or 500 posts, whichever comes first.
Butt hurt about a system that has been shown to disproportionately represent the people isn't butt hurt at all.
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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.
A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.
Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things
I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Sugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
Registered: 10/14/19
Posts: 12,769
Loc: OTD & ODD (not a pubfag)
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
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Quote:
christopera said:
90 days, or 500 posts, whichever comes first.
Butt hurt about a system that has been shown to disproportionately represent the people isn't butt hurt at all.
But why have states at all?
Why should California or Wyoming exist and have the ability to tax and regulate gun, cannabis, sex worker, gambling or any other thing locally?
Likewise why should representatives to Congress represent any locality? It has led to widespread abuse in the form of pet projects enriching localities at the expense of others
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Quote:
Sugabearcrisp said:
As suspected y'all just hating on the Senate because your impeachment dreams will die there as opposed to actually wanting to debate the need for Senate and the electoral college.
Butthurt that's all you are.
Not a single mention of impeachment until your post.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Sugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
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Loc: OTD & ODD (not a pubfag)
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods] 1
#26363497 - 12/05/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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1uptoadstool
procrastinator
Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 324
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Hmm my comment was deleted and just shows the quote
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
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Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
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Until the Constitution is changed, the vast majority of "not fair" Senate and electoral college proponents will continue to fume and bitch.
There may be some aspects of truth to the argument;yet, what is the solution? You think the smaller states would go for any of this without any compromise or safeguard? "We have more people, so just take it!"....is not going to work.
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
"We have more people, so just take it!"....is not going to work.
Who wants "one person one vote"? Right?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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YangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
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I am the Senate!
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
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Posts: 7,660
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It has never been that way.
Each state gets proportional representation in the House. I know you know all the arguments for and against that of the Senate....my point was that there doesn't seem to be any diplomatic solutions offered for the small states, if this were to change. Simply disregarding them while taking what power they have left....doesnt seem to enticing. Do you have any ideas?
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/06/19 12:15 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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I hear what you're saying, and I apologize if my comment sounded like I was attacking you (I wasn't).
I just meant to say I think that the current system is indeed flawed.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Never take your posts that way Fal.
Trying to think of examples of dangling carrots for small states...
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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I really don't know how it's possible to fix this. 
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Sugabearcrisp
Not Your Average Bear
Registered: 10/14/19
Posts: 12,769
Loc: OTD & ODD (not a pubfag)
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
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The only way to "fix" it is to abolish the states outright. Just one big country with each vote counting the same.
However that is a one size fits all approach that will leave many unhappy
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
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Abolishing slavery made slaveowners unhappy. If someone in wyoming is unhappy that they no longer get three times as much electoral power as someone in California I don’t give a fuck. In fact that makes me happy.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (12/06/19 02:33 PM)
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I really don't know how it's possible to fix this.
I will bite:
Small states concede some voting rights within the Senate (this of course would require Electoral college math changes) - for - the ability to line item veto federal legislation or some other perk. Help me out.
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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We just get rid of the senate. What is the point of two legislative bodies. It’s a stupid leftover idea from the House of Lords. It doesn’t represent the people.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26365638 - 12/06/19 06:06 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wonder how many Americans even realize that for most of American history senators were appointed, not elected.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26365657 - 12/06/19 06:16 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Getting rid of the Senate would be deal a breaker. How many committees and the like, would need to be dismantled? Either way, it would be a mess.
Let them secede...but use a more politically correct term.
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/06/19 06:19 PM)
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Morel Guy
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/13
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Corruption, moral corruption or put right crime is a fact of life. A local Govt and nothing else would lead to a lot of corruption.
What needs modernized is the instituitions and thought patterns of all people. People do not think for themselves. The subconscious is a mess that the self is destined to struggle with. Peoples subconscious doesn't chose who they are or where they are born.
Republicans are demographically endangered and they know that. Hence their bullheaded fight we see daily.
A lot of what is happening is left over drama from the 1960s. I suspect it will get worse as boomers become the largest voting population. Those that had a vulnerable subconscious during the 60s.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Morel Guy
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Morel Guy]
#26365713 - 12/06/19 06:47 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't really have a problem with red states, if they and their officals weren't on some awfully incorrect religious crusade. I don't agree with modern Christianity's interpretation. Making that the law is a bad move.
The quality of the people matters more than the system. All forms of rule indicate that to be true.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Morel Guy]
#26365759 - 12/06/19 07:15 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said:
The quality of the people matters more than the system.
I think the reality is complicated, but this statement applies very well to modern American society, insofar as someone with Trump's credentials, abilities and demeanor can get elected to the Presidency, or even put on any ballot. We have no one but ourselves to blame.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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meltdowner
Total Noob
Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 1,457
Loc: New York City
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
There is no reason why a state like Wyoming should have as much of a legislative say in federal policy, with a population smaller than most major cities, as a state like California.
Like the electoral college, the Senate is an archaic creation of the white landowner class that our Constitution was created to protect, and must be abolished.
If you disagree, explain yourself.
To avoid tyranny.
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I'm a Lightweight. I like to eat like two caps at a time.
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meltdowner
Total Noob
Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 1,457
Loc: New York City
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
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Quote:
Sugabearcrisp said:
As suspected y'all just hating on the Senate because your impeachment dreams will die there as opposed to actually wanting to debate the need for Senate and the electoral college.
Butthurt that's all you are.
Bingo.
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I'm a Lightweight. I like to eat like two caps at a time.
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Literally nobody has brought up impeachment except you too.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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YangSupporter
Stranger
Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods] 1
#26366403 - 12/07/19 07:51 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
I wonder how many Americans even realize that for most of American history senators were appointed, not elected.
The United States was founded to prop up the wealthy landed class.
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meltdowner
Total Noob
Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 1,457
Loc: New York City
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods] 3
#26366977 - 12/07/19 01:19 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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How delusional you are, you bring it up in every thread and slander President Donald J. Trump anytime you can. Why are you so full of hate? What has Trump ever done to you? Oh right, nothing! Just gave you better opportunities and improved your country! Better hate him because the media says he's bad!
Everyone here who is full of hatred for a President that's putting their life, first, of that of non-US Citizens is upset that the impeachment process is going to be a failure and knows Trump will win again in 2020. Kicking and screaming, he will drag you into a better life. It's like dealing with grown children.
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I'm a Lightweight. I like to eat like two caps at a time.
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: meltdowner] 2
#26367351 - 12/07/19 04:48 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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That kind of prostrate adulation is super creepy dude.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26370127 - 12/09/19 02:12 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Yellow Pants
Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
I am also interested in this. It seems Congress and the Democratic/Republican dynamic is all one big thing self perpetuating itself. So I have to assume that reform through voting and the Democratic/Republican dynamic is unlikely to bring the senate down. That would mean another mass party coming into reality that has a new agenda and system.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
It would require a new amendment to the Constitution, which requires 3/4 of the states for ratification. This would in practice be impossible, because all of the smaller states (those making up less than approximately 30% of the population together, and there are over 30 of them), would never ratify such an amendment. So it's never going to happen.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,174
Loc: Foreign Lands
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The better bet would be to try and get the rest of the country to kick the west coast out.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: ballsalsa]
#26370972 - 12/09/19 01:44 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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That seems likelier, yes.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Without the proper incentives, I would agree. If the pot was sweetened there may be a chance. What specifically could be offered, for the smaller states to give up federal power? Would it be possible to craft legislation giving them a line item veto-like power over things that influence thier state?
How about buying them out? Wonder what the price tag would be. I will say the pitting of large states vs smaller ones (without any incentive) creates the us vs them mentality...everyone would just dig in thier heels.
--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/09/19 03:03 PM)
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
So less government is a left wing pipe dream now?
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Lachlen
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/19
Posts: 72
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: mycosis]
#26371167 - 12/09/19 03:29 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said:
You think that would have passed in a majority rules system?
Exactly.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
HOW could we feasbily abolish the senate?
Serious question. Is there a plan or method that would actually be viable, or is this an extreme left pipe dream?
It would require a new amendment to the Constitution, which requires 3/4 of the states for ratification.
No it wouldn't. It would require a new constitution with a unicameral congress, which the US had under the Articles of Confederation and which didn't work out too well.
If you guys really want to know what the rationale behind the current US Constitution was then try reading The Federalist Papers.
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koods
Ribbit
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Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos] 1
#26371200 - 12/09/19 03:42 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Lachlen
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/19
Posts: 72
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26371206 - 12/09/19 03:45 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you want to reform than you are wasting ur time.
Just keep the borders open and things will change. Tax the billionaires and watch the elite fall. Eventually there can be a new government alltogether.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26371260 - 12/09/19 04:02 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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One of the major reasons the Articles of Confederation failed was due to a lack of central power. It was also virtually impossible to amend needing all 13 states. (In this hypothetical) If the smaller states gave up senatorial power, would it degrade federal power?
--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/09/19 04:02 PM)
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26371547 - 12/09/19 05:41 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
The 2080s have yet to come. And no. We can't ignore the past several hundred years of the history of our civilization and we can't ignore the philosophy that came concurrently with, and as a result of, it. Not unless you're okay with spearheading an anti-intellectual movement that basically leaves the worst parts of our society free to just nonchalantly revise history while you cocoon yourself in self-adulating pabulum, I mean.
Incidentally, a lot of your opinions about politics that you take for granted and just shrug off as being "natural" were probably pretty heavily shaped by The Federalist Papers, notwithstanding the fact that Tea Party dipshits kept singing its praises. If they'd actually read it then they probably would have bitched about it being some sort of a left wing anti-freedom screed.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26371557 - 12/09/19 05:44 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Incidentally, what's the cut off for how recently opinions should have been formed before we're disallowed from taking them into consideration? 
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Yellow Pants
Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26371639 - 12/09/19 06:26 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Incidentally, what's the cut off for how recently opinions should have been formed before we're disallowed from taking them into consideration?
78 years. About the average life span.
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Zyiadem
Smokes Catnip
Registered: 10/07/17
Posts: 392
Loc: Intn'l Waters
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26373163 - 12/10/19 01:40 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
koods said:
Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
The 2080s have yet to come. And no. We can't ignore the past several hundred years of the history of our civilization and we can't ignore the philosophy that came concurrently with, and as a result of, it. Not unless you're okay with spearheading an anti-intellectual movement that basically leaves the worst parts of our society free to just nonchalantly revise history while you cocoon yourself in self-adulating pabulum, I mean.
Incidentally, a lot of your opinions about politics that you take for granted and just shrug off as being "natural" were probably pretty heavily shaped by The Federalist Papers, notwithstanding the fact that Tea Party dipshits kept singing its praises. If they'd actually read it then they probably would have bitched about it being some sort of a left wing anti-freedom screed.
That needed to be said.
Literally all of the reasons stated by OP were thought of in the making of the checks and balances that allow America to remain as a single country. Despite the imbalance that you see from the way our government runs, the alternative is a dissolution of the nation. Just because you think the majority of people should decide, there is a lot of land and opinions between NY and CA. The people who provide all the food for those in the cities, if you think their opinions don't matter and disrespect what their religious views are, they will revolt/leave the union and not do business with you.
If CA and NY legalized abortion across the board you'd have a revolt from WY that's where all the fucking mormons are. Further than that if you broke the country down to legal opinions on matters large cities would be single leftist countries surrounded by larger less populous right leaning countries. Allowing wars to be waged between them due to a new boundaries and very clear definition of where opposing views are originating.
--------------------
I don't know shit.
And the more I know,
The more I realize it.
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist
Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,931
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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Tyranny under the whim of the urban population is not ideal 'democracy'. I don't believe in majority rule and creating a system that inevitably marginalizes and pushes out entire demographics from being able to do anything real on a political scale. But we have one with the senate anyway, so
Democracy and republicanism is inherently flawed, like every other shitty societal structure.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Zyiadem]
#26373214 - 12/10/19 02:04 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Abortion is already legal in CA and NY. I'm not sure what you think that Congress has to do with writing state laws. There are also precious few farmers who are willing to turn their communities into destitute shitboxes just to sick it to derm furgin liberals out in the cities. There are also models for how a unicameral legislature can work, but even where societies evolved around that sort of an institution it's very clearly not a guarantee against the sort of instutional deadlock and infighting that's been happening. There are also issues of geography that aren't exactly clear until they start causing massive problems. Governing a country the smaller than Texas that basically grew out of an urban nerve center over the course of the better part of a millenium (if not longer) is entirely different from trying to govern a large country that's basically a haphazard accretion of land with a national tradition that barely goes back two hundred years.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
Near Dylan said:
Tyranny under the whim of the urban population is not ideal 'democracy'.
Ideal democracy is restricted to male Athenian citizens who are chosen through a lottery. Which isn't to suggest that the Athenians weren't actually pretty horrible people. Fortunately the US is closer to a modern Persia.
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Zyiadem
Smokes Catnip
Registered: 10/07/17
Posts: 392
Loc: Intn'l Waters
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Near Dylan said:
Tyranny under the whim of the urban population is not ideal 'democracy'. I don't believe in majority rule and creating a system that inevitably marginalizes and pushes out entire demographics from being able to do anything real on a political scale. But we have one with the senate anyway, so
Democracy and republicanism is inherently flawed, like every other shitty societal structure.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
-John Adams
The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty
Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.
There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.
-George Washington
--------------------
I don't know shit.
And the more I know,
The more I realize it.
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist
Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,931
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26373250 - 12/10/19 02:18 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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I always hear people totally misrepresent Athenian democracy and its always in a different, more simplified way.
There's about as simplified of a rundown as you could get without cutting out crucial details. I majored and mastered in Classics and about 80% of that time was spent trying to get a good idea of how the Athenian Constitution and Spartan Constitutions worked, and I still don't really get it that much.
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Brian Jones
Club 27
Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,426
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 3 days, 9 hours
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Zyiadem]
#26373356 - 12/10/19 03:03 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zyiadem said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
koods said:
Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
The 2080s have yet to come. And no. We can't ignore the past several hundred years of the history of our civilization and we can't ignore the philosophy that came concurrently with, and as a result of, it. Not unless you're okay with spearheading an anti-intellectual movement that basically leaves the worst parts of our society free to just nonchalantly revise history while you cocoon yourself in self-adulating pabulum, I mean.
Incidentally, a lot of your opinions about politics that you take for granted and just shrug off as being "natural" were probably pretty heavily shaped by The Federalist Papers, notwithstanding the fact that Tea Party dipshits kept singing its praises. If they'd actually read it then they probably would have bitched about it being some sort of a left wing anti-freedom screed.
That needed to be said.
Literally all of the reasons stated by OP were thought of in the making of the checks and balances that allow America to remain as a single country. Despite the imbalance that you see from the way our government runs, the alternative is a dissolution of the nation. Just because you think the majority of people should decide, there is a lot of land and opinions between NY and CA. The people who provide all the food for those in the cities, if you think their opinions don't matter and disrespect what their religious views are, they will revolt/leave the union and not do business with you.
If CA and NY legalized abortion across the board you'd have a revolt from WY that's where all the fucking mormons are. Further than that if you broke the country down to legal opinions on matters large cities would be single leftist countries surrounded by larger less populous right leaning countries. Allowing wars to be waged between them due to a new boundaries and very clear definition of where opposing views are originating.
In the first place he U.S. Supreme Court legalized abortion across the board in the mid 70's and that is still the law of the land, despite peckerwood states trying to circumvent the constitution that says the judiciary interprets the law.
Second, fuck Wyoming. not the physical geography or the animals. Just the people.
Also Wyoming doesn't grow food. Iowa that has a few electoral votes that vote red and Illinois that has a lot of electoral votes that vote blue grow the food.
You're entitled to a conservative ideology. You're not entitled to broadcast the facts incorrectly.
--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
Edited by Brian Jones (12/11/19 07:25 AM)
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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|
Quote:
Near Dylan said:
I always hear people totally misrepresent Athenian democracy and its always in a different, more simplified way.
There's about as simplified of a rundown as you could get without cutting out crucial details. I majored and mastered in Classics and about 80% of that time was spent trying to get a good idea of how the Athenian Constitution and Spartan Constitutions worked, and I still don't really get it that much.
Did they have constitutions? Or even really have stable forms of government over the years?
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist
Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,931
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: chibiabos]
#26373367 - 12/10/19 03:09 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: Zyiadem]
#26373590 - 12/10/19 04:57 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zyiadem said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
koods said:
Can we stop referencing 300 year old thoughts on government. The whole system needs to be redesigned without the opinions of people who have been dead for 200 years
The 2080s have yet to come. And no. We can't ignore the past several hundred years of the history of our civilization and we can't ignore the philosophy that came concurrently with, and as a result of, it. Not unless you're okay with spearheading an anti-intellectual movement that basically leaves the worst parts of our society free to just nonchalantly revise history while you cocoon yourself in self-adulating pabulum, I mean.
Incidentally, a lot of your opinions about politics that you take for granted and just shrug off as being "natural" were probably pretty heavily shaped by The Federalist Papers, notwithstanding the fact that Tea Party dipshits kept singing its praises. If they'd actually read it then they probably would have bitched about it being some sort of a left wing anti-freedom screed.
That needed to be said.
Literally all of the reasons stated by OP were thought of in the making of the checks and balances that allow America to remain as a single country. Despite the imbalance that you see from the way our government runs, the alternative is a dissolution of the nation. Just because you think the majority of people should decide, there is a lot of land and opinions between NY and CA. The people who provide all the food for those in the cities, if you think their opinions don't matter and disrespect what their religious views are, they will revolt/leave the union and not do business with you.
If CA and NY legalized abortion across the board you'd have a revolt from WY that's where all the fucking mormons are. Further than that if you broke the country down to legal opinions on matters large cities would be single leftist countries surrounded by larger less populous right leaning countries. Allowing wars to be waged between them due to a new boundaries and very clear definition of where opposing views are originating.
Abortion is legal everywhere. Legal abortions were forced upon states that banned it in 1973.
This argument is totally disjointed. What you seem to be arguing is that it’s not fair for a minority opinion to lose to the majority. That somehow it’s better if the majority live with rules set by the minority. It’s laughable.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26373604 - 12/10/19 05:05 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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The moment the senate changed from appointed by state legislatures to elected by the people, it lost its role as the body that represented the states’ governmental interests.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Abolish the Senate [Re: koods]
#26373635 - 12/10/19 05:22 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Now it's just another pesky layer of bureaucratic impulse control.
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