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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Language
    #26355974 - 12/01/19 05:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It is interesting to speculate as to how many unique meanings can be generated by a language, e.g. English. Linguists seem to suspect that an infinite number of grammatically correct sentences could be constructed, which is counterintuitive since the Roman alphabet only has twenty-six letters. On the other hand, modern mathematics is a finite set of operations that handle the infinite quite easily, so a finiteness of symbols does not necessarily imply that the meanings the symbols can represent are finite in number. Certainly, the number is astronomically enormous. If finite, it is still quite enough of a system for creativity to flourish indefinitely.

Do you feel language is finite, or infinite? More than that, do you feel that language can, maybe not describe or fully illustrate any phenomenon, but refer to, or in some way deal with any possible phenomenon at all? Some people feel that psychedelic states are completely beyond language, and this may in some sense be true, but on the other hand, isn't it wonderful that we can even talk about these states? We can say quite a lot about them, so perhaps it is not totally relevant that I cannot communicate what an acid trip feels like to someone. But if two people have experienced nonordinary states, they can use language to have a very constructive conversation about it.

I'd love to hear your insights.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26356035 - 12/01/19 06:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

1) Infinity itself has different meanings or associations. Mathematicians point out that there are many infinities and that some (counter intuitive, I know), - are larger than others.
When ordinary folks use the term "The Infinite" they take it mean everything put into one category.

2) Even without 'psychedelic states' language cannot ever describe any of ordinary experience. No one can describe the taste of a banana, to another, who never tasted one, in such a way that they will really  know what it tastes like. In fact there is no such stable thing as how even one apple tastes.
Eat an apple after a fast of two weeks, and once the palette and tastebuds are resensitized it will be discovered that every bite tastes a bit different.

3) As even ordinary experience cannot be accurately described, it is perhaps even more so for
psychedelic states, exactly as you say.

4) Language is a system of abstractions and decidedly not telepathic. Folks misunderstand each other all the time. It distorts things/communications in ways that have been systemized. To get a taste for these sorts of details,  if  you like, Do  a web search for the terms:
Neuro linguistic programing
or
NLP
or
the Milton Model
or
neurolinguistics

fascinating stuff.

If it  grabs your fancy, you  could  go on to:
Alfred Korzybski
and a little
General Semantics

Korzybski and M.H. Erickson are considered foundational in this field,
and perhaps Bateson and the 'double bind' next.


Edited by laughingdog (12/01/19 06:35 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26356053 - 12/01/19 06:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed there is a good chance I already misunderstood you.
You may have wished more to stimulate, discussion to keep the board 'more lively' and on 'worthwhile' topics rather than to add to your knowledge base.
But who knows? What i just did is called 'reading between the lines' if correct, and perhaps what is meant by the term 'mind reading' in NLP, if incorrect.
Someone up on NLP could clarify this.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26356120 - 12/01/19 07:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"But if two people have experienced nonordinary states, they can use language to have a very constructive conversation about it." ... perhaps ...
NLP makes much of the fact that one can help another without knowing the content of their experiences, using certain specific techniques.

On a fundamental level Zen takes as a premise that language is very limited and generally misleading to some degree - therefore to use language to die-sect language is of absolutely no use if the aim is to be in 'nonordinary states'.

NLP does not aim to take one to 'nonordinary states', but to discover the current distortions in a  person's beliefs , and therefore their thoughts, associations, and emotions, & then to lessen the distortions or replace them with happier or more creative ones.

Aldus Huxley and Milton Erickson however did explore some rather altered sates, with hypnosis, a process that is based largely on language patterns.

https://www.behavior.net/forums/ericksonian/1997/msg412.html

http://www.hypnos.co.uk/whitlark-awareness.html


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26356294 - 12/01/19 09:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

As an American living in Bogota, I think about language quite a bit. I once jokingly called my fiancee ridiculous and she ended up in tears. In Spanish, ridiculous has maintained its original harsh and negative meaning (think ridiculous vs ridicule). But beyond that, we can communicate the original meaning by saying "deserving of ridicule". In that way, language is incredibly adaptable. It both breaks itself and then creates work-arounds when the original meaning of a word is watered down or changed. Another example would be awe-inspiring instead of awesome.

Beyond that, I'm fascinated by how language influences our own perceptions. I could write a whole book but I'll give two examples. In Spanish the auxiliary "haber" (in English that's "have") can be expressed in present-tense but is almost never used in past-tense. As a result, sentences like "I had been waiting for four hours and just lost my temper" don't really exist. Spanish-speakers tend to have a lot of difficulty in mastering this and I would argue that not having it creates a flatter perception of time.

Spanish (and I believe most romance languages) are more quantum. In English we are always speaking in the indicative (certain) mood. In Spanish, however, there is the indicative and the subjunctive (uncertain) mood. An easy example of this would be in "I hope you have a good day." In Spanish, the certain you form of "to have" is "tienes" but we say "Que tengas un buen dia". Because the potential of a bad day exists and we are only hoping, we must express an uncertain version of "you have". In this way, Spanish forces speakers to see more than one potential reality.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Language [Re: Darwin23] * 1
    #26356404 - 12/01/19 10:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry for writing a book, it's not a topic I get to speak about too often, hahaha. To answer your question, though, yes. You hit the nail on the head: "But if two people have experienced nonordinary states, they can use language to have a very constructive conversation about it." Our language can express shared experience but can never truly be understood if the experience isn't shared. I can talk about ego death or godhead because it's a common experience.

More personal bizarre experiences can be expressed with enough descriptive words, too. That gap between what we can express and what we experienced is present even outside of psychedelics. While doing humanitarian work with water filters in the third world, I watched a mom in a dirt poor and hopeless community staring at the filter. I saw everything going through her mind and I broke away from the group and just started sobbing. I could explain to you everything I saw in her eyes and I could explain everything that was going through my head, but I could never fully express what I was feeling in that moment. Because psychedelics are so personal, I feel like it's a similar situation. You can express what can be understood but not exactly what your experience was. The limiting factor isn't language as much as it's our own personal experiences.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26356521 - 12/02/19 12:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Conceptual consistency is the foundation of language and is the single-most important aspect, or the entire thing is actually worse than moot.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26356717 - 12/02/19 06:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

English has the subjunctive too, although it has mostly fallen out of favor.

much of psychedelic is beyond that mood of wished for things - instead the universe is already expanded and enriched - more resonant yet decoupled from the logic and constraints of time and tense.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26356913 - 12/02/19 09:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Indeed there is a good chance I already misunderstood you.
You may have wished more to stimulate, discussion to keep the board 'more lively' and on 'worthwhile' topics rather than to add to your knowledge base.
But who knows? What i just did is called 'reading between the lines' if correct, and perhaps what is meant by the term 'mind reading' in NLP, if incorrect.
Someone up on NLP could clarify this.




Quote:

laughingdog said:
"But if two people have experienced nonordinary states, they can use language to have a very constructive conversation about it." ... perhaps ...
NLP makes much of the fact that one can help another without knowing the content of their experiences, using certain specific techniques.

On a fundamental level Zen takes as a premise that language is very limited and generally misleading to some degree - therefore to use language to die-sect language is of absolutely no use if the aim is to be in 'nonordinary states'.

NLP does not aim to take one to 'nonordinary states', but to discover the current distortions in a  person's beliefs , and therefore their thoughts, associations, and emotions, & then to lessen the distortions or replace them with happier or more creative ones.

Aldus Huxley and Milton Erickson however did explore some rather altered sates, with hypnosis, a process that is based largely on language patterns.

https://www.behavior.net/forums/ericksonian/1997/msg412.html

http://www.hypnos.co.uk/whitlark-awareness.html





Yes, my principal aim was to stimulate discussion, but I am always ready to learn, and both were motivations for making the thread.

Your point about language being misleading and ambiguous is certainly well-founded. You also mentioned Korzybski. All of the good things about language aside, errors and misunderstandings find their way in all the time. Robert Anton Wilson was fond of pointing this out. He was a great proponent of "E-prime," which eschews the usage of the verb 'to be.' He points out that, when we use the is of identity, we begin to confuse language with reality. I believe Alan Watts said something like, "The menu is not the meal." I wouldn't go so far as to suggest everyone study E-prime, but it's an interesting approach in avoiding the fragmentation that so often plagues our attempts to communicate with each other. Certainly, our usage of language, especially these days, is decidedly fragmentary.

I am aware of NLP but don't know much about it. It certainly seems promising.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: Darwin23]
    #26356929 - 12/02/19 09:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
As an American living in Bogota, I think about language quite a bit. I once jokingly called my fiancee ridiculous and she ended up in tears. In Spanish, ridiculous has maintained its original harsh and negative meaning (think ridiculous vs ridicule). But beyond that, we can communicate the original meaning by saying "deserving of ridicule". In that way, language is incredibly adaptable. It both breaks itself and then creates work-arounds when the original meaning of a word is watered down or changed. Another example would be awe-inspiring instead of awesome.

Beyond that, I'm fascinated by how language influences our own perceptions. I could write a whole book but I'll give two examples. In Spanish the auxiliary "haber" (in English that's "have") can be expressed in present-tense but is almost never used in past-tense. As a result, sentences like "I had been waiting for four hours and just lost my temper" don't really exist. Spanish-speakers tend to have a lot of difficulty in mastering this and I would argue that not having it creates a flatter perception of time.

Spanish (and I believe most romance languages) are more quantum. In English we are always speaking in the indicative (certain) mood. In Spanish, however, there is the indicative and the subjunctive (uncertain) mood. An easy example of this would be in "I hope you have a good day." In Spanish, the certain you form of "to have" is "tienes" but we say "Que tengas un buen dia". Because the potential of a bad day exists and we are only hoping, we must express an uncertain version of "you have". In this way, Spanish forces speakers to see more than one potential reality.




Quote:

Darwin23 said:
Sorry for writing a book, it's not a topic I get to speak about too often, hahaha. To answer your question, though, yes. You hit the nail on the head: "But if two people have experienced nonordinary states, they can use language to have a very constructive conversation about it." Our language can express shared experience but can never truly be understood if the experience isn't shared. I can talk about ego death or godhead because it's a common experience.

More personal bizarre experiences can be expressed with enough descriptive words, too. That gap between what we can express and what we experienced is present even outside of psychedelics. While doing humanitarian work with water filters in the third world, I watched a mom in a dirt poor and hopeless community staring at the filter. I saw everything going through her mind and I broke away from the group and just started sobbing. I could explain to you everything I saw in her eyes and I could explain everything that was going through my head, but I could never fully express what I was feeling in that moment. Because psychedelics are so personal, I feel like it's a similar situation. You can express what can be understood but not exactly what your experience was. The limiting factor isn't language as much as it's our own personal experiences.





Fascinating, thank you for posting! Your point about Spanish being more "quantum" and fluid than the more Germanic English is very interesting. Also that perceptions of time are different between the two. It is certainly very important that people have some awareness of other languages -- Americans are very seriously deficient in this area.

Yes, I think shared experience is certainly a very central part of why language is effective. I may not be able to communicate my perception of "purple," but when I say the word, we are both sharing our awareness of our mind's interpretation of that frequency of visible light. Which clearly is infinitely useful and valuable.

I agree that experiences themselves are often not amenable to being communicated and, as you say, this may not necessarily be a deficiency of language so much as a result of the overwhelming complexity of emotions and other interior states. I wonder if someone who was telepathic (for argument's sake) could even have appreciated your individual perception in that situation, which as you point out is so personal. An interesting question.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26357246 - 12/02/19 01:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
....
...Yes, my principal aim was to stimulate discussion, but I am always ready to learn, and both were motivations for making the thread.

Your point about language being misleading and ambiguous is certainly well-founded. You also mentioned Korzybski. All of the good things about language aside, errors and misunderstandings find their way in all the time. Robert Anton Wilson was fond of pointing this out. He was a great proponent of "E-prime," which eschews the usage of the verb 'to be.' He points out that, when we use the is of identity, we begin to confuse language with reality. I believe Alan Watts said something like, "The menu is not the meal." I wouldn't go so far as to suggest everyone study E-prime, but it's an interesting approach in avoiding the fragmentation that so often plagues our attempts to communicate with each other. Certainly, our usage of language, especially these days, is decidedly fragmentary.

I am aware of NLP but don't know much about it. It certainly seems promising.




...As “Science and Sanity” was published in 1933, by Alfred Korzybski and he is famous for saying: "The map is not the territory”,  it seems Alan Watts saying: "The menu is not the meal", is derivative. 
...Of course Taoism and Zen made similar points as regards the limitations of language ages ago, but they did not go into the particulars, as Korzybski  attempted.
....Milton Erickson by example, used the peculiarities of language, to help people, explore the unconscious, and redevelop the entire field of hypnosis, develop brief therapy, and change how many approach therapy. But he purposely did not systematize.
Bandler and John Grinder developed, much of NLP based on the work of Erickson, this is mainly what makes it interesting, ( so some of it is insightful, (as they attempted to systematize) but it is also a commercial enterprise, developed by rather arrogant guys…) so it is not sufficient to learn about Erickson just from them.
To learn about Erickson from himself, and the many legitimate therapists, who have written dozens of books based on his teachings, is likely better depending on ones aims.
 
As  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming ;     says: 
“Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific approach to communication,”….

from; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski

“Many devotees and critics of Korzybski reduced his rather complex system to a simple matter of what he said about the verb form "is" of the general verb "to be."[5] His system, however, is based primarily on such terminology as the different "orders of abstraction," and formulations such as "consciousness of abstracting." The contention that Korzybski opposed the use of the verb "to be" would be a profound exaggeration.

He thought that certain uses of the verb "to be", called the "is of identity" and the "is of predication", were faulty in structure, e.g., a statement such as, "Elizabeth is a fool" (said of a person named "Elizabeth" who has done something that we regard as foolish). In Korzybski's system, one's assessment of Elizabeth belongs to a higher order of abstraction than Elizabeth herself. Korzybski's remedy was to deny identity; in this example, to be aware continually that "Elizabeth" is not what we call her. We find Elizabeth not in the verbal domain, the world of words, but the nonverbal domain (the two, he said, amount to different orders of abstraction). This was expressed by Korzybski's most famous premise, "the map is not the territory". Note that this premise uses the phrase "is not", a form of "to be"; this and many other examples show that he did not intend to abandon "to be" as such. In fact, he said explicitly[citation needed] that there were no structural problems with the verb "to be" when used as an auxiliary verb or when used to state existence or location. It was even acceptable at times to use the faulty forms of the verb "to be," as long as one was aware of their structural limitations. “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26357315 - 12/02/19 02:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

DividedQuantum here's a rather "radical" view on the matter. Listened to a lot but not all. Let me know what you think of it.

Seems best to watch from the beginning to understand the foundation. Starts to tie in thought and language about 6 minutes in.

Darryl Bailey, Challenging the Fantasies Part 1 of 3



http://www.darrylbailey.net/


Edited by laughingdog (12/02/19 05:54 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26357610 - 12/02/19 05:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i was thinking of where to post this: here will do, because it's on-topic:

"The American 'flaw' is minimalism. Not the art theoretic minimalism, I mean, in their semiotic and train of thought...I enjoy the fact of being completely open about my righteousness, but only to a degree therewith to perturb, disturb, or just plain ease [to contrast] people into loads and loads of information about all ways that I am right about just about everything, and make artifice out of thin air, for sake of curing boredom, all at the same time; I do not need strategy or tact at all times—like Americans [most of them] do."

[to nte. every other semiotic also has it's own flaws, and flows.]

[on Romanesque languages: they all have 'ticks' and stutters in their flows {breaks that structurate form and content thru micromovements in syntactic-semantic tokens} and where there is phonetic influences from elsewhere, there are differences there, too, like from Hebraic influences, there is more of an open-ended affair—whereas in Latinesque languages it isn't that it's "open-ended" but more that it's "double-sided" or double-ended


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26357914 - 12/02/19 08:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

like the Bat'leth?



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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26357921 - 12/02/19 08:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

sorta, yeah [figuratively speaking].

call it 'territorialization'.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26357974 - 12/02/19 09:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I know how to speak sign language and have found perspective on spoken word due to it.

I have found the sign conversations are far more unique than spoken language.

We use a whole heap of meaningless fluff whilst getting to a point, they dont.

With each word and the construction of a sentence being concise yet artistic.
The use of the body and face to express a meaning is imo more accurate of the true nuance of our relations.

We use words to agree upon that which is a sheep in (let's agree to agree) wolf clothing.

I think grunts would leave us feeling just as fulfilled conversationally if that were all we had.

When thinking about the finite your dealing with an infinite...And the opposite is true.
Prove either beyond a doubt I'll be impressed if you do.



.


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Language [Re: pineninja] * 2
    #26358148 - 12/02/19 11:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What’s fascinating about language is that it evolves on its own. The author Guy Deutscher calls it’s a reef of dead metaphors. If you have pets or siblings you may notice that you create inside jokes and jargon, or talk to the animal with a mellifluous tone, high pitches and potentially even make up words. This seems tied to nurturing instincts which run deeper than simply being human: they’re mammalian.

Language limits how we see the world and others but builds a bridge at the same time. I don’t think it will ever capture life’s grandest and most beautiful experiences. Poets will always try and come close.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Language [Re: CountHTML] * 1
    #26358519 - 12/03/19 06:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

poets are the redemption of language


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: pineninja]
    #26359053 - 12/03/19 12:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
I know how to speak sign language and have found perspective on spoken word due to it.

I have found the sign conversations are far more unique than spoken language.

We use a whole heap of meaningless fluff whilst getting to a point, they dont.

With each word and the construction of a sentence being concise yet artistic.
The use of the body and face to express a meaning is imo more accurate of the true nuance of our relations.

We use words to agree upon that which is a sheep in (let's agree to agree) wolf clothing.

I think grunts would leave us feeling just as fulfilled conversationally if that were all we had.

When thinking about the finite your dealing with an infinite...And the opposite is true.
Prove either beyond a doubt I'll be impressed if you do.



.





Very interesting pineninja. How many words would you say are in the sign vocabulary?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: CountHTML]
    #26359060 - 12/03/19 12:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:
What’s fascinating about language is that it evolves on its own. The author Guy Deutscher calls it’s a reef of dead metaphors. If you have pets or siblings you may notice that you create inside jokes and jargon, or talk to the animal with a mellifluous tone, high pitches and potentially even make up words. This seems tied to nurturing instincts which run deeper than simply being human: they’re mammalian.

Language limits how we see the world and others but builds a bridge at the same time. I don’t think it will ever capture life’s grandest and most beautiful experiences. Poets will always try and come close.





Very good points. They remind me of Burroughs' famous dictum that "Language is a virus."

I certainly believe much of human language is underlain by mammalian instincts. Indeed, much of the time we are speaking, it is out of some form of emotion. Clearly, dogs are every bit as emotional as humans, and can perceive emotional signals in their humans that the people just miss. Even though they do not understand the words, emotional language can be very meaningful for dogs and other mammals. Linguistic meanings can seemingly be variously significant.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26359083 - 12/03/19 01:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I believe language is fundamentally for communication purposes.  At some point some dude pointed to the fire and made a specific vocalization that was mimicked by his friend.  Now language has developed radically along with our social and cultural development.  The map is definitely not the territory.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26359106 - 12/03/19 01:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
DividedQuantum here's a rather "radical" view on the matter. Listened to a lot but not all. Let me know what you think of it.

Seems best to watch from the beginning to understand the foundation. Starts to tie in thought and language about 6 minutes in.

Darryl Bailey, Challenging the Fantasies Part 1 of 3



http://www.darrylbailey.net/





I didn't watch the whole thing, but I watched a fair amount and I think I know where this guy is coming from. Let me just address a few of the salient themes of his talk: 

One of his primary themes seems to be that language represents meaningless sounds attached to forms that don't even exist. There is some truth in this. The individual phonemes we attach to words with agreed upon meanings are not, in themselves, meaningful (other than as aesthetically beautiful expressions, i.e. in poetry). But, though I acknowledge that form is impermanent and transitory, I would not go so far as to say that form itself doesn't exist -- merely that it is not absolutely static in any way. This all ties into the suggestion that language is basically arbitrary and temporary, which, though true, does not invalidate anything for me about its utility and its ability to profit us greatly.

I agree with his nondual perspective, and naturally, language is dual, but on the other hand, if we have to make distinctions for the purposes of communication, then this is a necessary thing to do. Communication is one of the deepest themes of nature.

He also states that we have no tool for explaining or even satisfactorily dealing with existence and experience, and that all we can really do is "let existence happen." I feel this is a bit dismissive. As I said in a previous post, while language cannot communicate what a psychedelic feels like, it can excite recognition and understanding in others who have tried it. And I feel this is a perfectly wonderful thing. So, to a degree I feel we can approach communication of experience through language.

I agree that thought is not fundamental, and I suggest that the level of thought humans occupy most of the time is really an evolutionary system for dealing with survival. So we must not look to thought for any answers. Perhaps, though, there are some subtler forms of thought that are more fundamental. Perhaps language is useful even in communicating some of these subtler states.

I agree with him that we cannot understand reality through language, but then on the other hand, I don't think we can understand reality through any avenue. So to single out language as faulty in this area is, to me, a bit disingenuous.

All in all it's a very interesting talk, but I feel language is richer and broader than Mr. Bailey seems to, though I feel his approach is not without merit.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26359225 - 12/03/19 02:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

DQ, Thank you for your insights.

...I agree that the point about other languages, and the different words for the same thing, reveals some arbitrariness. But I think he over does it.
...Humans wouldn’t have all the marvelous technologies they do, if words didn’t have real meanings at a certain level, and furthermore meanings that pretty well agreed upon. Other wise translation wouldn’t work.
He avoids this point, repeats himself again & again almost verbatim, and the audience seems oblivious. But it bothers me.
So I agree with you about “its ability to profit us greatly.”

Also as you say: “So, to a degree I feel we can approach communication of experience through language.”  And this is an aspect of ‘reality’, and an essential one for us.

...His dismissal of the fact that advanced meditators
deal with pain in a fundamentally different way seems to have only 2 possible causes — being uninformed, or being purposely misleading. In either case a little strange. I mean this is no secret:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=buddhist+self+immolation&iax=images&ia=images
But again the audience seems oblivious.

....As you say: “I agree with him that we cannot understand reality through language”. & I agree with you, but again this is not new, which he acknowledges as going back to Buddha & Taoism.
But he adds nothing new and shows no sense of humor in regards to the fact that he is using words to make his points.
....Both Korzybski; & Bandler and John Grinder  with their attempt to analyze Erickson’s methods, using transformational Grammar; and Albert Ellis & other  cognitive psychologists, did make headway in understanding how many specific aspects of language mislead, and in which ways.

....To dismiss all of physics with one quote from a historical meeting long ago, post the A & H -bombs, and GPS in satellites, and other predictions made by Einstein, that have been proven, for example, again seems as you say: “a bit disingenuous”.

...I’ve listened to some of all the videos. I enjoy the deflating of the seriousness with which some philosophizers take themselves, but am disappointed in the repetitiveness, which perhaps serves as an excuse to NOT go into detail, or bring up & confront objections.


Edited by laughingdog (12/03/19 02:24 PM)


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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26359569 - 12/03/19 04:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed, well said. :thumbup:


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26359674 - 12/03/19 05:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

All the words are available through spelling if needed but most of the words in this sentence wouldnt be spoke.
Quite a few words are a combo of the initial spelling and another quick sign.
Most common words are available with one sign.

Yesterday I went to the shops and bought some flowers, it was a beautiful day too.

Yesterday I shops, flowers, beautiful day.

But with extra meaning through the movement of hand and body language, much like tone and intonation works for speech.

The perspective shift that they have during to one of the senses being altered gives them a unique view on a lot of things.

It makes them aware of the senses and how powerful...or not they actually are.

How much we can take for granted that they are the medium through which we compare and exist for example.


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Re: Language [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26359849 - 12/03/19 07:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Very interesting, thank you.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26362420 - 12/05/19 07:46 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So is language merely descriptive, that is of a reality separate from it ? 

Or does it represent or embody something more absolute ? 

Sometimes it seems that it is reality that obeys the IQ.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26362554 - 12/05/19 09:14 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

grammar is logic, and it varies with cultures.
vocabulary is encyclopedic and it also varies with cultures.
poetry can be the best use of vocabulary and legal frameworks are the best use of grammar,
language encompasses all of that.


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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26362709 - 12/05/19 10:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
grammar is logic, and it varies with cultures.
vocabulary is encyclopedic and it also varies with cultures.
poetry can be the best use of vocabulary and legal frameworks are the best use of grammar,
language encompasses all of that.




Right.  So does grammar/vocabulary simply exist as an appendage of the physical/evolutionary process, or are the origins of it more detached from this process than we’d typically assume ?  If so, what would that imply?

Something within the brain evolved the ability of relatively advanced thought along with the physical capabilities of speech.  So I guess I would be heading down a design vs. selection path.


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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26362743 - 12/05/19 10:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I remember tripping many years ago and coming to the conclusion that 'Words are Dead'. My process of thought was something along the lines of -
I know the words I know due to how I was brought up and taught those words, and all my experiences
I was brought up differently than others, even my brother next to me, and all my experiences are different
When I think of a word, it becomes what it is due to all my past experiences. 'Love' for me is different than love for anyone else. Thoughts of my parents, of Jesus and his love for xyz, my love for my hamster, etc.
How can we pretend to understand what other people are saying when each word coming out of their mouth means something entirely different compared to what it means to me.

Language to me is our way to try and connect with others, to find some similarity that we can have together. I think of times when I am conversing and either myself or the other exclaims 'Yes! Exactly! That is how I have always thought/felt about that' and in those moments their seems to be a deeper connection. The contentment of knowing that other people think the same thing as you, or see this thing we call reality in a similar way as you. Almost saying "hey, you aren't that different, I think the same way and see the world as you do!". And that feels comforting to us.

I think this can also lead to trouble when you seek that too often, and dismiss others who you think don't have similar outlooks on your reality. I suppose the difficulty can arise when you put too much belief in your views and aren't able to be open to others. In other words, putting the label or right and wrong on your thoughts vs. others.

And to come full circle, even your definition of right and your definition for wrong is going to take a different form than any one else, due to how you define those words due to all your past experiences up to that moment. So, words evolve for each individual as they move through life.

I'm having many thoughts right now, and am having a hard time articulating them all. And this again comes back to the idea that I want to share my ideas with you, with the hopes that someone else will agree and be on the same page as me. As if I want to create that connection with another.

A few quotes I have saved in the past to add for some food for thought.


Joseph Samuel Bois said in his book The Art of Awareness

"in a sense we are always talking about ourselves, no matter what we believe we are talking about"

and also

"Real communication is a joint interplay of thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and purposes"

In the book Phi: A Voyage from the Brain to the Soul by Giulio Tononi, he states

"Nothing that is made of matter can hope to explain the quality of the mind"


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Re: Language [Re: dodgem] * 1
    #26362747 - 12/05/19 10:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It also reminds me of something else I thought of long ago after eating mushrooms -

The difference between saying "this is a bird" vs "this is what we can a bird"



Thanks for this post DQ, it has really got me thinking!


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26362757 - 12/05/19 10:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
grammar is logic, and it varies with cultures.
vocabulary is encyclopedic and it also varies with cultures.
poetry can be the best use of vocabulary and legal frameworks are the best use of grammar,
language encompasses all of that.




Right.  So does grammar/vocabulary simply exist as an appendage of the physical/evolutionary process, or are the origins of it more detached from this process than we’d typically assume ?  If so, what would that imply?

Something within the brain evolved the ability of relatively advanced thought along with the physical capabilities of speech.  So I guess I would be heading down a design vs. selection path.





These are excellent questions, and given that human speech has to do with specific forms of evolution that occurred hundreds of thousands to millions of years ago, we just don't really know the answers.

Noam Chomsky believes that the capacity for speech is a genetic mutation, an assertion with which many disagree, including myself. We don't need to invoke design, but the confluence of a descended larynx (without which speech is impossible), the nature of our brains and our particular neurology, etc., is a very fortuitous situation. There are so many factors involved that Chomsky's belief seems a little simplistic.

Not only that, but it now appears that non-recursive languages are spoken in some human cultures. This really throws a monkey-wrench into Chomsky's theory, which depends on recursively enumerable combinations of words. (Recursive languages are those that are sets within all possible combinations of the language. In other words, a language is recursive if there is an algorithm that can spit out all the meaningful strings in that language, and those strings only. A language is not recursive when such an algorithm doesn't exist).

So, we can say that selection can produce such a situation, although just how is quite beyond science's purview at this time. Design is not necessary, although no one would call someone crazy if they decided that nature was orderly, and not entirely accidental. However, that is neither here nor there. The origin of language is basically a total mystery.


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Re: Language [Re: dodgem]
    #26362770 - 12/05/19 11:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dodgem said:
I remember tripping many years ago and coming to the conclusion that 'Words are Dead'. My process of thought was something along the lines of -
I know the words I know due to how I was brought up and taught those words, and all my experiences
I was brought up differently than others, even my brother next to me, and all my experiences are different
When I think of a word, it becomes what it is due to all my past experiences. 'Love' for me is different than love for anyone else. Thoughts of my parents, of Jesus and his love for xyz, my love for my hamster, etc.
How can we pretend to understand what other people are saying when each word coming out of their mouth means something entirely different compared to what it means to me.

Language to me is our way to try and connect with others, to find some similarity that we can have together. I think of times when I am conversing and either myself or the other exclaims 'Yes! Exactly! That is how I have always thought/felt about that' and in those moments their seems to be a deeper connection. The contentment of knowing that other people think the same thing as you, or see this thing we call reality in a similar way as you. Almost saying "hey, you aren't that different, I think the same way and see the world as you do!". And that feels comforting to us.

I think this can also lead to trouble when you seek that too often, and dismiss others who you think don't have similar outlooks on your reality. I suppose the difficulty can arise when you put too much belief in your views and aren't able to be open to others. In other words, putting the label or right and wrong on your thoughts vs. others.

And to come full circle, even your definition of right and your definition for wrong is going to take a different form than any one else, due to how you define those words due to all your past experiences up to that moment. So, words evolve for each individual as they move through life.

I'm having many thoughts right now, and am having a hard time articulating them all. And this again comes back to the idea that I want to share my ideas with you, with the hopes that someone else will agree and be on the same page as me. As if I want to create that connection with another.

A few quotes I have saved in the past to add for some food for thought.


Joseph Samuel Bois said in his book The Art of Awareness

"in a sense we are always talking about ourselves, no matter what we believe we are talking about"

and also

"Real communication is a joint interplay of thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and purposes"

In the book Phi: A Voyage from the Brain to the Soul by Giulio Tononi, he states

"Nothing that is made of matter can hope to explain the quality of the mind"





Wonderful post. Yes, there is a subjectivity to language that is undeniable, due largely to the fact that we are largely subjective beings. The whole thing is so complex that to really get a handle on it is quite impossible.

I like your second quote, too. Indeed, human communication is about much more than a combination of words. Just about every time we communicate, sensation, emotion, social dynamic, thought, etc. are factors that enter into it. I think a lot of people, especially academics, try to get away from this, but it's very difficult. Nevertheless, language is rich and wonderful, at least at times.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26362784 - 12/05/19 11:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Just a few of the mysteries and facets of language:

Is mathematics a language?
Does it have a grammar?
Why can children learn 2 or more languages between the ages of about 1 to 5 with no formal grammar instruction, yet in adulthood, many struggle to learn a second language?
Why and how does language change, so that we can't really understand Shakespeare after a few hundred years?
Why is "Finnegans Wake" by James Joyce, considered great when almost no one actually reads it, or understands it?
What do you think of the literary  experiments by Jack Kerouac in "On the Road" and William S. Burroughs novel's?
Touchy subject, by why is the speech of people in the USA, markedly different according to skin color? And even touchier, why is it easier for one group to talk like the other, than visa versa?
Why did 'california girl" speech happen? if like you know how totally way cool it is?
Why do people tell jokes?  Do autistic people tell or get or enjoy jokes?
Young animals play, and sneak up on one another, and pretend to fight, but grown animals seem to have no real sense of humor. Like wise math has no sense of humor. Does humor have a biological function?
Various animals communicate to some degree, and generally the biological function is obvious, but whale songs lasting  20 minutes , &  sometimes repeated  over and over again for 3 hours, remain a mystery.
etc.
etc.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26362893 - 12/05/19 12:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
grammar is logic, and it varies with cultures.
vocabulary is encyclopedic and it also varies with cultures.
poetry can be the best use of vocabulary and legal frameworks are the best use of grammar,
language encompasses all of that.




Right.  So does grammar/vocabulary simply exist as an appendage of the physical/evolutionary process, or are the origins of it more detached from this process than we’d typically assume ?  If so, what would that imply?

Something within the brain evolved the ability of relatively advanced thought along with the physical capabilities of speech.  So I guess I would be heading down a design vs. selection path.





These are excellent questions, and given that human speech has to do with specific forms of evolution that occurred hundreds of thousands to millions of years ago, we just don't really know the answers.

Noam Chomsky believes that the capacity for speech is a genetic mutation, an assertion with which many disagree, including myself. We don't need to invoke design, but the confluence of a descended larynx (without which speech is impossible), the nature of our brains and our particular neurology, etc., is a very fortuitous situation. There are so many factors involved that Chomsky's belief seems a little simplistic.

Not only that, but it now appears that non-recursive languages are spoken in some human cultures. This really throws a monkey-wrench into Chomsky's theory, which depends on recursively enumerable combinations of words. (Recursive languages are those that are sets within all possible combinations of the language. In other words, a language is recursive if there is an algorithm that can spit out all the meaningful strings in that language, and those strings only. A language is not recursive when such an algorithm doesn't exist).

So, we can say that selection can produce such a situation, although just how is quite beyond science's purview at this time. Design is not necessary, although no one would call someone crazy if they decided that nature was orderly, and not entirely accidental. However, that is neither here nor there. The origin of language is basically a total mystery.





I am aware this is not an empirical take but suppose “god” manifests this world.  God being some sort of transcendental force with manifesting powers.  Design would not be an accurate word but instead a kind of meta physical encouragement in combination with the down to earth reality of this world.  Language develops out of body-brain structures and an ever evolving species.  If you can more or less accept that to be accurate ish then language is also a conduit, at least potentially, to “god” for lack of a better term, in the sense that what is manifested ultimately stems from “god” then the language of the manifested can be a portal into this truth. 

Just a thought.  However there is definitely something to the works of great poets and writers.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26362903 - 12/05/19 12:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Following from your premises, that is not illogical.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26362914 - 12/05/19 12:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I mean I think Chomsky is right in that speech is a genetic mutation.  It’s just whether or not that’s the be all end all of the matter ?


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26362928 - 12/05/19 12:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think it is at all. Really, I think it's far too complex for modern science to figure out.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26362943 - 12/05/19 12:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't think it is at all. Really, I think it's far too complex for modern science to figure out.




How so ?


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants] * 2
    #26363015 - 12/05/19 01:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well like I said, evolutionary biology, genetics, ethology, psychology, neurology, linguistics, etc. each have to solve a lot of problems, and then figure out how their solutions tie in with the solutions of all the other fields. It's a totally multidisciplinary problem, and academia these days doesn't do well with that. Moreover, we need more physical evidence than we will ever be able to have to answer some of these questions. So, at least to me, a real answer seems hopeless.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26363140 - 12/05/19 02:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Well like I said, evolutionary biology, genetics, ethology, psychology, neurology, linguistics, etc. each have to solve a lot of problems, and then figure out how their solutions tie in with the solutions of all the other fields. It's a totally multidisciplinary problem, and academia these days doesn't do well with that. Moreover, we need more physical evidence than we will ever be able to have to answer some of these questions. So, at least to me, a real answer seems hopeless.




Certainly complex, but at its base isn’t the larynx and the parts of the brain dealing in symbolism/speech based on the mutation of genes from an organism that didn’t previously have these things ?


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26363283 - 12/05/19 03:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

language is a fucktangular mess, yo.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants] * 3
    #26363325 - 12/05/19 04:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Language is a means to an end.
What is that end?

How could we possibly explain that end (or the means) with the means created solely for the purpose.

We think we are clever...just ask us.


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Re: Language [Re: pineninja]
    #26363458 - 12/05/19 05:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

you could say that the ability to detect and articulate phonemes is inherited, and therefore, you could say that our phoneme producing ability evolved an that genes may be located that encompass these abilities.

Other animals and especially some birds actually have a much more capable phoneme detection production apparatus, to the extent for example, that the lyrebird is capable of imitating almost any sound: they have been recorded mimicking human sounds such as a mill whistle, a cross-cut saw, chainsaws, car engines and car alarms, fire alarms, rifle-shots, camera shutters, dogs barking, crying babies, music, mobile phone ring tones, and even the human voice.
Parrots also can reproduce sounds.

these creatures are not that adept and sharing sounds in socially meaningful situations, (although the very idea of socializing between birds and humans is not easy to resolve) but they do love to perform, and that might be as meaningful a sharing that they are going to seek. They want admiration, and a bit of food wont hurt either. Other social opportunities with humans such as for work, marriage, child rearing, food preparation, and home building, are unlikely to arise, so the suitability of their vocabularies, and their logic in grammar are usually missing in utterances they make except in outright repetition.

What is special about people, aside for our social interdependence (that language facilitates),is that we have learned to deconstruct larger sequences into smaller ones and then string together other sequences (of words) to convey ideas.

this is not inherent in any vocal apparatus (human hearing and voice is far less accurate and capable than that of the Lyre bird) but it is in how we can isolate and repeat aspects of our experience and with that share meaningful ideas with others.

Dogs and horses and other animals can get some aspects of what we are speaking about, which means that they can follow language to a degree, usually more so than a human idiot.

what is important is the abstract thought capability that has evolved in humans more than in other creatures. This combined with vocal and hearing abilities supported the development of many hundreds of languages in various cultures here on Earth.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26363474 - 12/05/19 05:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Certainly complex, but at its base isn’t the larynx and the parts of the brain dealing in symbolism/speech based on the mutation of genes from an organism that didn’t previously have these things ?




Well but as I implied, the situation is not dependent on the evolution of the larynx or on any putative speech gene themselves, but a whole confluence of factors that are numerous and poorly understood at present. So really it's a question of a whole host of genetic factors, many of them not even related to each other, and many other factors besides.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26363656 - 12/05/19 06:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hdUbIlwHRkY

Ran into this old Chomsky bit on language.  Interesting stuff.  He basically says what has already been captured here.

However towards the end he alluded to the ability of the child to rapidly acquire the concept of basic words at an alarming rate and suggests a sort of “latent knowledge” of the child hidden within some unrealized portion of its nature where understanding is already there.


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Re: Language [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26365420 - 12/06/19 04:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Not only is the human brain not really understood, neither is that of the so called lower animals, such as that of termites, who built huge nests that are air conditioned
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=termite+nests&iax=images&ia=images
or
any of the brains of the other social insects, all of whom communicate to some degree.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=leaf+cutter+ants&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

Regardless of Chomsky, if we go back a million years, the development of human language, obviously gave humans an evolutionary advantage, and started out as purely utilitarian. The expression of emotion, and noises that go along with it, in animals, is utilitarian.
Emotion in animals, is perhaps almost always a form of communication, with others, as well as often the way an organism prepares its metabolism to go into the state appropriate for a coming action.
There are also series of actions that perform both functions such as mating rituals and 'dances' (such as those of birds seen in David Attenborough nature documentaries).
So what we think of as language has roots that go back many many millions of years, and these roots are preverbal.

Once we get to modern humans ( say the last 30,000 or 10,000 years) language becomes so intricate that it can be used to condition humans, to perform all sorts of actions that are at cross purposes with evolution. Where ever there was a geographic separation between tribes, villages, clans, cliques, large enough to create an 'us versus them', we get a different culture. Now it is politically correct to pretend they are all wonderful. They could perhaps just as easily be seen as sets of conditioned responses, the are to a large extent counter productive, whose conditioning was largely created by language. As language arbitrarily categorizes all of 'reality'.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26365452 - 12/06/19 04:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Even within large cultures we have sub cultures, with their own slang or jargon.
Even if we don't travel or get around much, movies portray this very well.

From gangsters, to golfers, to California Valley Girls, to bikers, to rappers, etc etc. , we see both identity, and solidarity / belonging being created by humans imitating each others language patterns.
That this of course also tends to narrow one's view of the larger 'reality' is lost on most of us, most of the time.
Even psychologists, who have their own jargon, according to their preferred brand of therapy, must perhaps reap the consequences, of the hypnotic effect of all language.
A few have avoided this by not developing a theory, or joining a school of therapy that they feel gives them legitimacy.
IMO studying language in the brain is one thing, but as humans are very social creatures, and much of the structure of society is maintained by language, one cannot really hope to understand much about language, without also studying the structure of human society.
Seems its a weird world...


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26365467 - 12/06/19 04:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

in everything the infinitely small, in everything thing the infinitely large.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #26365519 - 12/06/19 05:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

If everything is fractal (as I believe it too be) then so are our relationships.

Facebooks ability to see the massive has helped them understand the minute for instance.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26365538 - 12/06/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

DQ was interested in whether language could talk of states encountered in tripping.
'The Farm" in Tennessee, is a commune from the the 70's, founded by hippies, and interestingly they developed their own jargon and rituals, partly based on psychedelic use. Some of the jargon can be found in  Stephen Gaskin's books. Also interestingly the jargon never seems to have been taken up by anyone outside the community.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26368217 - 12/08/19 01:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Language and math are the ultimate, most useful (efficacious) abstractions of the conscious self.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Language [Re: pineninja]
    #26368644 - 12/08/19 09:26 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
If everything is fractal (as I believe it too be) then so are our relationships.

Facebooks ability to see the massive has helped them understand the minute for instance.




Facebook is not a person, it doesn't understand anything. and Zuck is an A hole.
Furthermore using facebook regularly leads to less happiness.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+use+happiness&ia=web

You can surely find better examples of the fractal nature of things.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Language [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26369135 - 12/08/19 01:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Facebook represents massive data set and knows more about you as an idividual within a society then you would probably like to imagine.

The power that comes from such a data set is only now starting to be used effectively by governments and industry.

This perspective... through data... is and will continue to be  driving force in policies and societcys for many years to come.

For me fractal is all.

Stream.
River.
Ocean currents.
Wind and waves.
Sound and light.

Schoolyard politics.
Friendship politics.
Workplace politics.
World politics.

Patterns are fractal and Facebook has an overview on us.

*I'm not on Facebook.
*I realise Facebook isnt a person.


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Re: Language [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26369155 - 12/08/19 01:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The weather as random nuanced and imperfect as it is can now be somewhat predicted...every year we get better.

They do this by effectively breaking the whole atmosphere down to individual points and putting them in a 3d grid of little blocks.

Each block has at its points an interactive algorithm which are fed by.. a weather balloon or wind reader a thermometer or rain catcher...so on.

Over the years with the more accurate data they have and the more computational power to run their numbers...the more accurate they have become.

We are much like the weather from a data perspective....fractal almost.:wink:

They can see thunderstorms a week out.
They can see a coup too.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26393559 - 12/21/19 06:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think that the oldest languages have the most meaning and power. Each language as a whole can grip a speaker and change them, the way they act and think. Some languages can be dark and evil and others honest and good. Some languages cause collectivism between speakers. Some can cause charity between speakers. Maybe even possible to cause hate and disgust between speakers.

I can only imagine the power of the oldest and most forgotten languages. I'd imagine that these are the kinds of languages that we use to explain the unexplainable. Especially under the use of psychedelics.

However languages can change from continuous use and encounters between speakers. Like in the Chinese characters many characters become obsolete and aren't used for hundreds of years and then suddenly picked up again in times of need or greed. And in Chinese, the average speaker uses several thousand characters. Throughout history there is upwards of 50,000 characters possibly hitting 70,000. The oldest characters are still used today giving meaning to the oldest of names given to the oldest families of ancient times. Old blood.

One could only ponder as to the kind of meanings attached to some of these symbols from ancient times. Pretty mad I'd say.


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Re: Language [Re: kitten6]
    #26393745 - 12/21/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

how can a language be evil - any examples?
is darkness evil?


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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26395226 - 12/22/19 09:20 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i believe that there is a strong correlation between what language you speak and how you behave/think about things, (your method of understanding things) each method of understanding comes with different conclusions.

As a language develops, the language is heavily influenced by the activities and thoughts of the speakers. Most modern languages that are still spoken are developed to suite modern standards to an extent, but of course there are always differences.

If a language is used for murder, control, temptation, by the speakers overall, that language becomes suited for that purpose. Then either the speakers live on and the evil roots dilute and eventually disappear, or the speakers die off, leaving the language to be forgotten. If that language is then picked up again and a new speaker emerges, that language will still have the same affect on the new speaker as the original speakers intended it to.

These are the kind of languages that come from times of legend, ancient times when the people could see deeper, lower populations and miracles happened. The words used by the legendary people of old. There power is left behind in their forgotten words that we can only dream of being able to understand fully.

that is what i believe at least, I'm no linguist or language historian or whatever, these are just ideas I've had in my head that i think sound about right.


Edited by kitten6 (12/22/19 09:21 AM)


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Re: Language [Re: kitten6] * 1
    #26395488 - 12/22/19 11:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Most definitely, language conditions our very thought processes and our very consciousness. English, German, French, Spanish, going back to Latin and all the way back to Sanskrit, can only work for civilized cultures. We have objects acting on objects through verbs. In something like Navajo, there are basically no nouns -- objects, if they are referred to as objects (which they aren't very often) are constructed out of verb-forms. Chinese is interesting because China has been civilized for about six or seven thousand years, but they mostly used verb-forms in the early versions of Chinese.

Ancient Chinese and especially Navajo as process-based languages, and the Indo-European languages are object-based languages. Obviously, in cultures that create stratification and technology, with a split from the environment, it is only natural to think in terms of objects -- especially after money came around. And written language.

So you're totally right that language itself conditions our perceptions and awareness, and I'm sure the way modern humans subjectively experience the world is a dramatic exception to humans of the past.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26395721 - 12/22/19 02:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You already concluded on your first paragraph :
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If finite, it is still quite enough of a system for creativity to flourish indefinitely.





Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Do you feel language is finite, or infinite?




It's a body of effective communication. It expands/contracts as needed.
Un-evolved languages have huge alphabets and restricts higher level thinking as such. Expression/language is currently compressing to more dense forms not expanding for language's sake.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
More than that, do you feel that language can, maybe not describe or fully illustrate any phenomenon, but refer to, or in some way deal with any possible phenomenon at all?




For all intent's purposes.. Yes. Otherwise, you get into pointless philosophy. Old english is not a better form of english. It was an expanded lexicon premised on elitism : A bunch of rich people having nothing productive/better to do with their time than to huff their own farts and formally represent their supposed 'elite' depth. Most of it died because it was superfluous.


Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Some people feel that psychedelic states are completely beyond language, and this may in some sense be true, but on the other hand, isn't it wonderful that we can even talk about these states?




Psychedelic states aren't beyond language. All of it can be represented by current language. The issue is that the participant of this activity doesn't always have a broad range of intellect/knowledge/experience/grasp/practice of language to often be able to represent their experience in language. I could in short form discuss exactly what happens in the brain during this experience and describe the connection/details of the experience in average English if I chose. Most can't.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We can say quite a lot about them, so perhaps it is not totally relevant that I cannot communicate what an acid trip feels like to someone. But if two people have experienced nonordinary states, they can use language to have a very constructive conversation about it.

I'd love to hear your insights.



Reality isn't beyond language. Every experience can be expressed in it. However, it requires a unique brain and a broadly informed person to be able to do so. These experiences don't turn an individual into an 'Einstein' after-all. Modern Language doesn't hold a person back. It more often is the individual and their brain state of development that does. Most people are unaware of a large percentage of words in the dictionary... Not that they're necessary to speak intelligently but I use it to highlight that most of the language/dictionary capacity is sitting on a table unused. Until you've fully covered it, it's pointless to try to form an argument that language is somehow a limiting factor.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26395851 - 12/22/19 03:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

language is like this: when you increase your vocabulary, it's like when you increase any other skill set...you are garnering memoragic data, like RAM in a computer, and improving the routing in your brain...it's like neuronal tracing, only by microform details, like the graphism of the letter.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26395951 - 12/22/19 04:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
language is like this: when you increase your vocabulary, it's like when you increase any other skill set...




Generally agreed to the extent that one reaches an optimal average.
This is the case with the language center as its just a 'translation' hub. There are diminishing returns to the extent that you go beyond a high-end average and trend moreso into overlapping superfluous vocabulary. This is exampled in my own above statement...

I gain nothing grand by knowing the word superfluous vs the more common synonyms : excessive; redundant; needless

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you are garnering memoragic data, like RAM in a computer, and improving the routing in your brain...it's like neuronal tracing, only by microform details, like the graphism of the letter.



Yes and no. As with computers/ram/etc, there are physical limits. Knowing 1000 synonyms for the same word doesn't improve your brain function. Instead, you'll just begin overwriting useful memory. This is the diminishing returns aspects and why, even if you learn the whole dictionary.. you'll soon forget it and focus on a smaller working set to express yourself. Language past a certain high level average has negative effects esp involving overlapping words. An expanded vocabulary only allows you efficiency of expression and only when there are not one word synonyms and only when that expanded vocabulary is practiced daily and common among people you converse with. Languages with excessive alphabets are archaic, inefficient, and i'd argue cause adherents to have less intelligence.. this relates to the memory space it takes up in the brain that could be used for more useful rote memory.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26395989 - 12/22/19 05:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I gain nothing grand by knowing the word superfluous vs the more common synonyms : excessive; redundant; needless




and yes, if you know what 'superficial' means, you then have an nexus of superficial-superfluous that, in all probability, is going to prove an effectively 'better translation' of understanding and comprehension, whether in stance of opposition or agreement.

Quote:

An expanded vocabulary only allows you efficiency of expression and only when there are not one word synonyms and only when that expanded vocabulary is practiced daily and common among people you converse with.




i tend to disagree. i find people either understand, or don't. i find that [see this repetition?] there are nuances to natural language and conversation, but when in a setting such as this [writing] your ability to be cohesive is much better [and if you can be so cohesive in conversation, it's clearly not the same thing, as you have those particular limits you mentioned, but then and only then, it seems to me. otherwise, you are free to speak as eloquently as you wish, but that doesn't mean everyone will understand you [or even want to read it]. this is their problem. not the writers. the minimalism of thought is a degree of laziness, not a limit. this limit you speak of, i don't find it inherent in language or the brain's structure, in and of itself, i see it as markings of territory, more than anything...hence this strange belief i find many embracing, that of "minimalism".

you do note that a people as to have this inclination, and what i am saying is that is inherent in culture, not language itself. we essentially agree, but on some very small order quibbles.

Quote:

Languages with excessive alphabets are archaic, inefficient, and i'd argue cause adherents to have less intelligence.. this relates to the memory space it takes up in the brain that could be used for more useful rote memory.





again, i tend to disagree. our brains are perfectly fine with processing large vocabularies. some are just slow-learners on the subject. like me, you give me mathematics, i'll get back to you in awhile...i'm not whiz kid...but you ask me to write you a novelty in words and i'll give you one. it's perfectly understandable to think that most people are simply attuned to different orders of affairs [quite an instrumentalist and materialist take on my part, but alas, matters are just electrons within their own right, that are bound and spun]. this creates the instance of ideas and their changing and modifications. this can also be confuted by the matters of currency [sound-tokens of a brilliant deduction], whereby people will be fundamentally shifted into a survival mode over a multifarious leveling of forces [economic, survival, ideology, propaganda, social mores, etc.] which then effects the amount of time they have to concern themselves with thinking and memoragic concerns. Kant's "functional enclosure of epistemicity": and since "time is money" [as people say], there belies a sort of "chronoception" of belief, which is allotted and distributed in various strata of society and community. i find this is an affect on intelligence and memory, more than anything.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26396106 - 12/22/19 06:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
and yes, if you know what 'superficial' means, you then have an nexus of superficial-superfluous that, in all probability, is going to prove an effectively 'better translation' of understanding and comprehension, whether in stance of opposition or agreement.




In what sense and to what end? You're expressing exactly what I referenced when I spoke of the time period/context in which these words came about.. A bunch of uppity wealthy people sitting around all day probing the extended detail they could go with language for no grander purpose than reflect that they had excessive time/money on their hand and could extole their mastery therein.

There is no higher opposition/agreement with such vocabulary as it most typically amounts to self-masturbation. I of course value a higher-average of vocabulary. However, to the outer-reaches I described it has diminishing and sometimes negative returns in that you lose the number of people you can successfully communicate with yet gain nothing of value. If you go into a room of PhD physicists, they are going to have a scholarly Repertoire of English. Instead, they will have a scholarly repertoire of science. There are only 24 hours in a day, I'd much rather cultivate my mind in other ways than wank myself off to my expanded vocabulary.  There's often no purpose beyond self flattery to it beyond a high-average..

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i tend to disagree. i find people either understand, or don't. i find that [see this repetition?] there are nuances to natural language and conversation, but when in a setting such as this [writing] your ability to be cohesive is much better [and if you can be so cohesive in conversation, it's clearly not the same thing, as you have those particular limits you mentioned, but then and only then, it seems to me. otherwise, you are free to speak as eloquently as you wish, but that doesn't mean everyone will understand you [or even want to read it]. this is their problem. not the writers.




You're expressing what I framed earlier to a T. Yes, a mastery of language/diction afford you a panoramic luxury of detailed expression. However, rarely in life beyond art is that desired. More often than not, it becomes a 'trophy' of elitism necessarily translating as : I have so much free time/luxury in my life that I can masturbate to a near infinite range of expression and master it even though it has no sensible real life value beyond art.. and what of this art of expression beyond the exclusive noble who can opine to such value in elite manner that its do?

It's circular masturbation in the outer reaches.. You're declaring to the world your mastery of something while becoming increasingly less communicable and then you engage in wild mental gymnastics telling yourself you've obtained something valuable/transcendent. No dude... you didn't. The words I just typed out probably haven't be used by me in a decade. They're just sitting there dormant on a shelf. They're redundant to other more commonly used words. Like any educated/read person, I can pull them out of my arse at will. It doesn't make me intelligent. It adds no value to the conversation. 

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the minimalism of thought is a degree of laziness, not a limit.




Mins/Max .. there is idiocy at both ends of the spectrum for all things.
The optimum is most often at a high average. I am well versed in a computing language. You probably are not. Opportunity cost. I am well versed in mathematics, etc etc.. All are languages. I don't seek to master them because there's idiocy at the max. I could find a guy who has mastered a computing language. If I put him in a team environment, he's equally as destructive as the idiot who knows nothing.. even worse probably because at least the idiot knows his limits. The master isn't a master but thinks he is.. and again, if no one understands him/his code, what is the value in that? Even in computing languages, after you learn mastery, you are told to focus on a narrow more common form in team environments. Recursion is a difficult thing to understand/implement and is a part of coding languages. However, you'll never see it in practice because it actually performs like dog shit and is impossible to understand. Isn't it funny how this principal of diminish returns is everywhere?

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
this limit you speak of, i don't find it inherent in language or the brain's structure, in and of itself, i see it as markings of territory, more than anything...hence this strange belief i find many embracing, that of "minimalism".




Oh it's most definitely inherent in your brain unless you think you have special magic meat upstairs. I can point you to some neuroscience papers if you'd like. You brain definitely has limits of capacity/bandwidth/etc. I'd love for you to explain the benefit of clogging up such a system with redundant information. You brain in fact prunes this junk every night which is why you forget superfluous b.s. The marking in territory is the elitist thinking centered around language especially as it ignores the many forms that language come in : scientific languages, chemistry, math, physics, computing languages.

Again, you don't have magic meat upstairs. So, mastering and becoming a savant of 'high art english'.. most likely requires you to be diminished in other areas and in that the clear negative/diminishing returns of specializing in something with no higher value.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you do note that a people as to have this inclination, and what i am saying is that is inherent in culture, not language itself. we essentially agree, but on some very small order quibbles.




We likely agree on the concept of a great value residing in a 'high average' mastery of language. We might disagree on where to draw that line and I think you need to take pause to recognizing the opportunity cost involved in going past this 'high average'. We're both implying by omission that a lower average grasp of language is beneath discussion as it is clearly a bad thing that impacts all aspects of one's life/capability.


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
again, i tend to disagree. our brains are perfectly fine with processing large vocabularies.




Diminishing returns/opportunity cost/brain capacity.
There is nothing to disagree on except where the lines are drawn up. The above are factual. If your brain ere fine w/ it, you wouldn't forget it. Forgetting occurs when your brain prunes/tunes down circuits that aren't
in frequent use or of importance. It does this to run more efficiently and to 'reuse' unnecessary portions of your brain for more important things.


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
some are just slow-learners on the subject. like me, you give me mathematics, i'll get back to you in awhile...i'm not whiz kid...but you ask me to write you a novelty in words and i'll give you one. it's perfectly understandable to think that most people are simply attuned to different orders of affairs [quite an instrumentalist and materialist take on my part, but alas, matters are just electrons within their own right, that are bound and spun]. this creates the instance of ideas and their changing and modifications. this can also be confuted by the matters of currency [sound-tokens of a brilliant deduction], whereby people will be fundamentally shifted into a survival mode over a multifarious leveling of forces [economic, survival, ideology, propaganda, social mores, etc.] which then effects the amount of time they have to concern themselves with thinking and memoragic concerns. Kant's "functional enclosure of epistemicity": and since "time is money" [as people say], there belies a sort of "chronoception" of belief, which is allotted and distributed in various strata of society and community. i find this is an affect on intelligence and memory, more than anything.



You seemingly can't avoid what I framed earlier.. LOL
Opportunity cost.
Time is money.
You could either spend your time mastering how to colorfully express these terms or master what they mean in the real world. To become versed in math to the level I did, I forwent the opportunity of indulging in the 'arts'. To become more versed in how the brain actually functions, I had to forego even more indulgence in language. The strata of old society knew nothing about the reorganized strata of today. Today, tech rules society and the languages therein. Mastery of language sets changes with society. Intelligence has nothing to do with rote memorization... and if you condition you brain to value such things, you indeed will be different and underappreciated in a era that values creation and master of science vs that of communicable diction. Maybe in a past life, a person of already high stature/wealth had the luxury of such recreation .. Most certainly not in this life. Our forefathers after-all, already plumbed those extremes so as to free our mind/time to other matters... If you are of the profession of the arts and literature, you most necessarily need the skills you express and it is indeed valued in its appropriate medium. Beyond that though...
BRUH
:nicesmile:

And honestly, of the many well authored books I read, I almost never find myself picking up a dictionary to understand a word. Doesn't take much indulgence to get to such a working vocabulary.. Just based K-12 education + college degree and occasional reading.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26396131 - 12/22/19 06:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

is making up your own language good or evil
why would you do it?
is there a motive?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26396247 - 12/22/19 07:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In what sense and to what end? You're expressing exactly what I referenced when I spoke of the time period/context in which these words came about.. A bunch of uppity wealthy people sitting around all day probing the extended detail they could go with language for no grander purpose than reflect that they had excessive time/money on their hand and could extole their mastery therein.




you're simply highlighting the "capitalism" of words. the currency of language. it's a retroactive pursuit, to assess such things, isn't it? i see people opting for more of the same tenses of "reform", revolt", "reproach", "resign", "react", [aha]. this in an attempt to "take back" what they feel they should...well, all the properties of this "currency" aforementioned is seen here, in all it's glory. you use words to win, as much as one uses a sword.

Quote:

There is no higher opposition/agreement with such vocabulary as it most typically amounts to self-masturbation. I of course value a higher-average of vocabulary. However, to the outer-reaches I described it has diminishing and sometimes negative returns in that you lose the number of people you can successfully communicate with yet gain nothing of value. If you go into a room of PhD physicists, they are going to have a scholarly Repertoire of English. Instead, they will have a scholarly repertoire of science. There are only 24 hours in a day, I'd much rather cultivate my mind in other ways than wank myself off to my expanded vocabulary.  There's often no purpose beyond self flattery to it beyond a high-average..




from a societal perspective, i could maybe see your point but...it's not always an "exchange" of values. sometimes people just like what they do. there is a repertoire to everything. [see, i kept it short here, and i'm not going to fill in the subtext with context. you get the idea, i don't need to flesh it out, right? not everything is a "test" or a "competition" or a "score" or a "gain", sometimes people are just bored and they are entertaining themselves with whatever system of interaction they, in their mind, wants to emulate, internally.]

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You're expressing what I framed earlier to a T. Yes, a mastery of language/diction afford you a panoramic luxury of detailed expression. However, rarely in life beyond art is that desired. More often than not, it becomes a 'trophy' of elitism necessarily translating as : I have so much free time/luxury in my life that I can masturbate to a near infinite range of expression and master it even though it has no sensible real life value beyond art.. and what of this art of expression beyond the exclusive noble who can opine to such value in elite manner that its do?




real life value? you think that that's something that's been assigned? ok...by whom? =)

you tell me.

Quote:

It's circular masturbation in the outer reaches.. You're declaring to the world your mastery of something while becoming increasingly less communicable and then you engage in wild mental gymnastics telling yourself you've obtained something valuable/transcendent. No dude... you didn't. The words I just typed out probably haven't be used by me in a decade. They're just sitting there dormant on a shelf. They're redundant to other more commonly used words. Like any educated/read person, I can pull them out of my arse at will. It doesn't make me intelligent. It adds no value to the conversation.




it totally depends on the situation. i think wit is incredibly overrated, but...that doesn't stop people from incorporating into conversation. some people find word play annoying, and puns insufferable- not all, though. some people let their academic jargon flow wildly to people that can understand them, thus, more flows wildly flow, and you might not like that- but they do. sometimes natural language, the language of the laymen, or the poet, even, can be conflated and seen as one, and not unrightly so.

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Mins/Max .. there is idiocy at both ends of the spectrum for all things.




sure, but one sense of idiocy is truly lacking, while the other is overflowing- and usually for the sake of reverence, yes, but it's not always to "pull the wool over ones eyes", as you seem to be implying. sometimes it's merely because it's more interesting and fun to use highfalutin language to explicate something quotidian and otherwise mundane. whereas minimalism is also an artistic statement, it's usually done for the abstract reason of "concision" [a concept that applies more to declarative statements, and professions which necessitate not just the economical, but the legalistic, or coded forms of interchange], whereby the reader is left with more holes than a vivid picture of events, which is a conundrum for the most part, not relevant here- i'm talking about brevitas, and the like concession to the wont for a reduction of circumstantial speech. platitudes. easy answers. quick answers and solutions. many people even confuse concision and succinctness, unable to comprehend that there is no "simpler way" to put "a thing". people confuse the notion of "word salad" with verbosity...because of their lack of a comprehensive vocabulary.

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The optimum is most often at a high average. I am well versed in a computing language. You probably are not. Opportunity cost.




i'm well aware of the concept of a 'sunk-cost'. however, you are you...you aren't me. i'm not you, either. clearly we have different perceptions on what is a "waste of time and energy" and what isn't.

Quote:

All are languages. I don't seek to master them because there's idiocy at the max. I could find a guy who has mastered a computing language. If I put him in a team environment, he's equally as destructive as the idiot who knows nothing.. even worse probably because at least the idiot knows his limits.




sure. but not all idiots know their limits, actually, that's kind of the definition of an idiot. a person who doesn't understand the concept of "their limit" and others'.

Quote:

The master isn't a master but thinks he is.. and again, if no one understands him/his code, what is the value in that? Even in computing languages, after you learn mastery, you are told to focus on a narrow more common form in team environments.




yes, you are told to.

Quote:

Recursion is a difficult thing to understand/implement and is a part of coding languages. However, you'll never see it in practice because it actually performs like dog shit and is impossible to understand. Isn't it funny how this principal of diminish returns is everywhere?




i'm the guy who made an essay about how language is recursive and endless...and that information is the same. but also, that there is no "off" function. you are told what to do, are you not?

Quote:


Oh it's most definitely inherent in your brain unless you think you have special magic meat upstairs.




i said the "brains' structure" to be specific. brains contain information, but they don't seem to contain structures that define a "minimum and maximum idiocy". i'm sure you think that'd be nice, though. isn't it funny how these recursions pop up?

Quote:

I can point you to some neuroscience papers if you'd like. You brain definitely has limits of capacity/bandwidth/etc.




i never said it doesn't have limits. i already mentioned that it clearly has memory limits. it also has floating data points, which is an interesting phenomenon.

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I'd love for you to explain the benefit of clogging up such a system with redundant information.




i'd love for you to explain your point? what is your abduction? that writers are too writerly, and people should just 'learn to code', and be "more productive" in the particular way you think is the "better" way, and what would be more "efficacious" to some group or body, is the only choice solution to a problem [that] you perceive in people's expansive vocabulary in and of itself? sounds rather inexplicable, but maybe you can tell me about this grandiose fault of humanity. i blame the need to make money because you aren't exactly held-aloft by strings the state provides, no? or god, yes? not any of those things help anyone, and since people are not driven cattle, they have to learn for themselves, don't they? how to "make ends meet", as people say. really, when it comes down to your "pithy" society-made problem, isn't that the only concern? where it progresses from here in the most effective way? very computer like of you.

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You brain in fact prunes this junk every night which is why you forget superfluous b.s. The marking in territory is the elitist thinking centered around language especially as it ignores the many forms that language come in : scientific languages, chemistry, math, physics, computing languages.





you're doubly wrong here. who "makes the most of themselves" in this society...those who can code and do science. you're totally off-base here, with the idea of 'marking territory'. glad i brought it up.

Quote:

Again, you don't have magic meat upstairs. So, mastering and becoming a savant of 'high art english'.. most likely requires you to be diminished in other areas and in that the clear negative/diminishing returns of specializing in something with no higher value.




you decided that value, how? magic head meat? or no? not that? more like mechanical headmeat, oh metally one. but you decide what is negative in it's return because you are the entire arbiter of the social-engine.

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We likely agree on the concept of a great value residing in a 'high average' mastery of language. We might disagree on where to draw that line and I think you need to take pause to recognizing the opportunity cost involved in going past this 'high average'. We're both implying by omission that a lower average grasp of language is beneath discussion as it is clearly a bad thing that impacts all aspects of one's life/capability.




well, let's see where this goes, as it's a recursive set of two series here, one of the number, and one of the word.

current-cy [rheological flows] and value-orientation.

Quote:



Diminishing returns/opportunity cost/brain capacity.
There is nothing to disagree on except where the lines are drawn up. The above are factual. If your brain ere fine w/ it, you wouldn't forget it. Forgetting occurs when your brain prunes/tunes down circuits that aren't
in frequent use or of importance. It does this to run more efficiently and to 'reuse' unnecessary portions of your brain for more important things.




your brain automatically performs, involuntarily, to survive- a person will kill, likely, to survive. that's purely a motivation beyond the will- a person's will is everything, according to your admonishment to beware opportunity costs' detriment.

so use it. [see, was that laconic end point more useful? i suppose not, it's a platitude signifying that you use your will, pretty obvious, right? but then again, that's what we're debating about, isn't it?]

what is better? free will? or constrained will? and who is doing more of the constraining? word-smiths, or money-barons? writers or scientists? who makes the most "value" for society, and who makes the most "value" [or surplus value, for that matter, if one includes Marxian theory] for themselves, and where do we "draw the lines" or "not draw the lines" in this instance?

should people shut up for the sake of a few?

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You seemingly can't avoid what I framed earlier.. LOL
Opportunity cost.
Time is money.




no, you're completely wrong, LOL, read again. i already addressed the aspect of "time as money", and you didn't address it [the actual thing i was ascribing to with the phrase...you just sort of repeated the phrase.]

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You could either spend your time mastering how to colorfully express these terms or master what they mean in the real world.




they mean as much as you're willing to extract- you're more in wont to extract more resources out of the earth, no? more "progress", more romantic gestures as such? no? tell me i'm wrong.

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To become versed in math to the level I did, I forwent the opportunity of indulging in the 'arts'. To become more versed in how the brain actually functions, I had to forego even more indulgence in language.




all languages, like you said. so what's your point? that the number rules all? that the brain? the face? what is your point?

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The strata of old society knew nothing about the reorganized strata of today. Today, tech rules society and the languages therein. Mastery of language sets changes with society. Intelligence has nothing to do with rote memorization... and if you condition you brain to value such things, you indeed will be different and underappreciated in a era that values creation and master of science vs that of communicable diction.




ok, Tesla. i'm sure your courting genius levels of curiosity on the daily, and you'll enlighten the social world and civilization anyday now with something that will fill the void of their lives with, surely, something that is entertaining and not just "end-of-life necessity" like a medical cause, and "fructifying progress into the stars" with spaceships and maybe even space-mining, and there'll be annoying gadflies then, too, to pester you, annoy you, simply be speaking, right?

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Maybe in a past life, a person of already high stature/wealth had the luxury of such recreation .. Most certainly not in this life. Our forefathers after-all, already plumbed those extremes so as to free our mind/time to other matters... If you are of the profession of the arts and literature, you most necessarily need the skills you express and it is indeed valued in its appropriate medium. Beyond that though...




you seem to admire these people, but you think that there is no room in society for such "faults" of all-too-human cognition, though...that...is merely an opinion. a lot of people value the stability of a recreation beyond pure number.

Quote:

And honestly, of the many well authored books I read, I almost never find myself picking up a dictionary to understand a word. Doesn't take much indulgence to get to such a working vocabulary.. Just based K-12 education + college degree and occasional reading.




*snore*

Quote:

is making up your own language good or evil
why would you do it?
is there a motive?



conlangs have motives, like Toki Pona was constructed sort of for reasons that are highlighted above, namely, retention...but also a nonplussing language, to make people "kinder" and nicer overall.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/22/19 08:19 PM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26396549 - 12/22/19 11:29 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you're simply highlighting the "capitalism" of words. the currency of language. it's a retroactive pursuit, to assess such things, isn't it? i see people opting for more of the same tenses of "reform", revolt", "reproach", "resign", "react", [aha]. this in an attempt to "take back" what they feel they should...well, all the properties of this "currency" aforementioned is seen here, in all it's glory. you use words to win, as much as one uses a sword.




I'm highlighting the origin of the 'art form' you seem most enamored by. Per your logic : Slang, Hood lingo, netspeak, and memes are of similar arbitrary value as the airy words which you favor. There's simply no compass or landscape with the picture you're painting and you either remain ambivalent to it because you've invested so much time/energy to this art or because you actually believe the elitist narrative I've already painted. I shouldn't have to use the words I am right now to get this point across but can in comedic fashion. My argument could be summarized in basic language in less than 2 sentences but here we are having a good ol' fashioned wank and go at each other for no higher purpose which is the hallmark sign of 'over-philosophizing'/mental masturbation for which there is indeed a 'language'. I choose not to waste my time excelling at it because I've found it to be pointless beyond witty ear-marking.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
from a societal perspective, i could maybe see your point but...it's not always an "exchange" of values. sometimes people just like what they do.




We call that art/social science.. And there's a reason why it is considered to be a lesser degree of higher education.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
there is a repertoire to everything. [see, i kept it short here, and i'm not going to fill in the subtext with context. you get the idea, i don't need to flesh it out, right? not everything is a "test" or a "competition" or a "score" or a "gain", sometimes people are just bored and they are entertaining themselves with whatever system of interaction they, in their mind, wants to emulate, internally.




And depending on the nature of a thing ... i.e : Intellectual masturbation, therein lies the low value of such an exercise besides self flattery and/or mutual reach around flattery. Keep it short? That would have amounted to acknowledging my point that the 'repertoire' of mention was born out of elites having a wank at each other in past times while plebs did their bidding and how in this modern age its an outdated practice which is why most of it has died out along with the diction/repertoire. Some people enjoy the nostalgia of it all and what it was associated with : elitism/wealth... So, they enjoy the wanky and airy posturing that comes along with expressions of it. Maybe, I'm a wierdo but I very much have a point often to my engagements. Here, I was trying to really understand if you believed the posture you made on this and clearly you don't because you just admitted to doing so for : entertainment and there being no higher value beyond that.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
real life value? you think that that's something that's been assigned? ok...by whom? =)
you tell me.




You believe creative communication art forms relate to intellect. Per your thinking those steeped in : slang, hood speak, netspeak, and memes
are underappreciated Artisans of higher minded society...

What I'm slowly unwinding to you is that the outdated nasally practices of old English have been replaced in modern times by netspeak/slang/memes. It's a far more effective expression of the same thing. A picture is worth a thousand words after-all. Who knows all the memes but an Artisan of high station of the modern web? Who pray tell is so free of worldly requirements but a NEET in a basement eating mum's tendies such that he may imbue his mind with memes aplenty?
:canthelpbutlaugh:

Come on man.. any great mind can pull this crap out of their rear end.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
it totally depends on the situation. i think wit is incredibly overrated, but...that doesn't stop people from incorporating into conversation. some people find word play annoying, and puns insufferable- not all, though. some people let their academic jargon flow wildly to people that can understand them, thus, more flows wildly flow, and you might not like that- but they do. sometimes natural language, the language of the laymen, or the poet, even, can be conflated and seen as one, and not unrightly so.




It's a dry/dated practice steeped in elitism. I am no fan of it.
The key point of observation was actually being in these circles/studying and excelling at the finest academies and higher ed institutions and realizing that its just 'social club' bullshit. I can turn it on at will and I see no greater purpose. Most of the humor is as dry as a desert. The intellect tasteless. The depth of ideation dearth... So, I see it of no great practice beyond the tried and true obsession of ivory tower elites who never get out and live life enough such that 'language' flows more organically and is attached to actual experience... Instead, the sheltered elites of time's passed merrily were theorist of life. They opined what life was like outside of their manner/station but never truly lived it... which is why their banter was so dry/shallow/weak. You can struggle as much as you like to posture in a different manner but you know these words to be true.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
sure, but one sense of idiocy is truly lacking, while the other is overflowing- and usually for the sake of reverence, yes, but it's not




It is for the sake of reverence for the pleb/idiot who lives life fully immersed vs. the academic who theorizes as to the experience from an ivory tower ad nauseam. Both extremes are steeped in the same ignorance of the middle fulfilling path. Listening to excessive verbiage about simple things or muddling complex things with flatulent words/posture is as excruciating as listening to an idiot

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
always to "pull the wool over ones eyes", as you seem to be implying.




You can't.. I have feet in many worlds. I know what they are in essence.
You're having a good wank bruhv, bumpin your gums but aint sayin chit.
There's no wool.. and my eyes are wide open calling it what it is.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
sometimes it's merely because it's more interesting and fun to use highfalutin language to explicate something quotidian and otherwise mundane. whereas minimalism is also an artistic statement, it's usually done for the abstract reason of "concision" [a concept that applies more to declarative statements, and professions which necessitate not just the economical, but the legalistic, or coded forms of interchange], whereby the reader is left with more holes than a vivid picture of events, which is a conundrum for the most part, not relevant here- i'm talking about brevitas, and the like concession to the wont for a reduction of circumstantial speech.





Quote:

akira_akuma said:
platitudes. easy answers. quick answers and solutions.




Platitudes :
n.
Flatness; dullness; insipidity of thought; triteness.

As I stated earlier before this wank-fest.
:nicesmile:


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
many people even confuse concision and succinctness, unable to comprehend that there is no "simpler way" to put "a thing". people confuse the notion of "word salad" with verbosity...because of their lack of a comprehensive vocabulary.




And some people like to fill the air/time with their own farts of Flatness; dullness; insipidity of thought; triteness.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i'm well aware of the concept of a 'sunk-cost'. however, you are you...you aren't me. i'm not you, either. clearly we have different perceptions on what is a "waste of time and energy" and what isn't.




Whatever becomes of this foolishness you clearly concede is :
- Platitude
- entertainment

Time has no value to you?


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Offliner00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26396550 - 12/22/19 11:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
sure. but not all idiots know their limits, actually, that's kind of the definition of an idiot. a person who doesn't understand the concept of "their limit" and others'.




Not everyone steeped in the art of language is an intellect. You usually are able to decipher this through extended exchange. Limits can be surmounted if a person seeks growth/progress and has intention/goal behind their day to day actions. I can't imagine how one achieves that smelling their high art circular farts/philosophy all day...
"Their limit"
"others"

You play with language so much you perceive a depth that isn't there in reality. It's all in the hall of language you have constructed in your head which gets me to the point I made about NEGATIVE returns playing with language too much. You begin to 'see' structure that isn't there. Your brain stops trying to perceive the world and its complexities as it is and instead begin trying to ascribe high art language qualities that aren't there. The classic entrapment of the lifelong philosopher..

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
yes, you are told to.




You learn not to because it results in shitty performance and unpredictable and unstable code.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i'm the guy who made an essay about how language is recursive and endless...and that information is the same. but also, that there is no "off" function. you are told what to do, are you not?




I'm the guy with a Graduate degree in Computer Science who is telling you, even in this specialty, there are features of the language that are never used because in REALITY they lead to shitty performance, in-stable systems, and it is pointless which is why even in computing, most of the features of a language are never used because the ARTISANS who authored them were engaging in self-masturbation for the sake of language and that leads not to a higher meta understanding/practice of the world.. It leads you down a self-flattering and crappy trip through the language author's mind and a crappy inner trip down your own hall of mirrors.


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i said the "brains' structure" to be specific. brains contain information, but they don't seem to contain structures that define a "minimum and maximum idiocy".




I was referring to the brain's biological structure and limits therein specifically with reference to memory and thought flows. Your brain has functional limits and actively and unconsciously prunes superfluous content. You have no control over this which is why one most frequently practice non-useful things to keep it 'fresh'. You're forcing your brain to not over-write the junk which you have subscribed to as a hobby.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i'm sure you think that'd be nice, though. isn't it funny how these recursions pop up?




Yes, you are failing to 'see' yourself and your hobby for what it is so here we are still working through it. I'm done however. I know this pattern of exchange quite well when dealing with certain types who bask in self-masturbatory philosophy and I know having broken such individuals down with far more confronting language what the common intent is behind it .. As I have outlined earlier.


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i never said it doesn't have limits. i already mentioned that it clearly has memory limits. it also has floating data points, which is an interesting phenomenon.




Analog isn't a 'floating point' and its operation, in-so-much as the brain is concerned is not known. And no your brain has nothing to do w/ meme-learning statistics and RELU.



Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i'd love for you to explain your point? what is your abduction? that writers are too writerly, and people should just 'learn to code', and be "more productive" in the particular way you think is the "better" way, and what would be more "efficacious" to some group or body, is the only choice solution to a problem [that] you perceive in people's expansive vocabulary in and of itself? sounds rather inexplicable, but maybe you can tell me about this grandiose fault of humanity. i blame the need to make money because you aren't exactly held-aloft by strings the state provides, no? or god, yes? not any of those things help anyone, and since people are not driven cattle, they have to learn for themselves, don't they? how to "make ends meet", as people say. really, when it comes down to your "pithy" society-made problem, isn't that the only concern? where it progresses from here in the most effective way? very computer like of you.




My point to be blunt was: Don't smell your own academic/self read farts so much that you think because you have an artful expression of words that you're an :
> Intellect
> Big brain

The great polymaths of the world don't take on the characteristics you extol. Quite the opposite.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you're doubly wrong here. who "makes the most of themselves" in this society...those who can code and do science. you're totally off-base here, with the idea of 'marking territory'. glad i brought it up.




I'm not wrong in the slightest sense and please don't engage in psychological projection. While it appears I clearly am a man of science, I also maintain an extended study of what appears to be your bread and butter.. Enough such that I can cut through bs with ease. My point of referring to what modern elites (wealthy people) are now and how they speak was to take a dump on the art form of past modern elites (wealthy people) and artsy/fartsy language expression. True of today as it was then : Stop feeling yourself. You're nobody in the grand scheme of things. Nobody cares for your overly obtuse non-productive old-english art form expression. The same way no learned person cares for some tech billionaires grandiose bullshit.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you decided that value, how? magic head meat? or no? not that? more like mechanical headmeat, oh metally one. but you decide what is negative in it's return because you are the entire arbiter of the social-engine.




After smelling the air in the room, I could tell it was rank.
So I investigated further and found its source. I don't determine value. I'm a nobody. I extend this out to others especially those steeped in an old tradition of elitism. It's your thing I guess.. Cool. But you said one crucial thing that got things down this course. Your equated language with intellect. It is not. You after-all didn't create the words/structure you are uttering from rote memorization... Elites of Oxford did. So, you are either unaware, unaffected, or are simply carrying on a tradition in hopes of associative valuation. None of which work on true intellect. So, do as you please. The world is after-all your own subjective experience. Feel as elite and as intellectual as you need to feel. I see your banter, as you have conceded, to be on par with hood slang..


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
well, let's see where this goes, as it's a recursive set of two series here, one of the number, and one of the word.
current-cy [rheological flows] and value-orientation.




I'm done after this post. I've wasted enough of my life masturbating with myself and others in the realms of philosophy. I have been missing for some time for this reason. Just dropping in towards the new year to see if any minds have changed and are oriented towards what's coming or hae interest. Apparently not.. Apparently art forms of old still capture minds of plenty. O'well.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
your brain automatically performs, involuntarily, to survive- a person will kill, likely, to survive. that's purely a motivation beyond the will- a person's will is everything, according to your admonishment to beware opportunity costs' detriment.




Spend less time in artsy fartsy books and pick up some books on neuroscience. You'll learn alot more about how your brain works and language even. You'll pick up scientific language/understanding that nullifies most philosophical bs from the past and you'll speak more intelligently in the present and future. DAT SUNK COST AT PLAY

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
so use it. [see, was that laconic end point more useful? i suppose not, it's a platitude signifying that you use your will, pretty obvious, right? but then again, that's what we're debating about, isn't it?]




Will isn't everything. Spend less time masturbating to language/philosophy and more time studying science and you'll learn this.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
what is better? free will? or constrained will? and who is doing more of the constraining? word-smiths, or money-barons? writers or scientists? who makes the most "value" for society, and who makes the most "value" [or surplus value, for that matter, if one includes Marxian theory] for themselves, and where do we "draw the lines" or "not draw the lines" in this instance?




A healthy mix of all things is good. People's narrow focus and specialization is what plagues the earth currently. Everyone further wants to pretend they're something their not through images and language.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
should people shut up for the sake of a few?




Keep doing you bro.. Who I am to tell you different?

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
no, you're completely wrong, LOL, read again. i already addressed the aspect of "time as money", and you didn't address it [the actual thing i was ascribing to with the phrase...you just sort of repeated the phrase.]




I'm spend more of my time living life than philosophizing about it. This includes meta topics. This results in me not having alot of time to masturbate to theoretical language constructs and thoughts about it. I forgot, at what point I came to such a conclusion in my college education in philosophy.. But i distinctly remember a scholarly debate with a professor that resulted in a twisted circle jerk of language that arrived at nothing at which point i saw into his world and wanted nothing to do with such a self-immersed existence.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
they mean as much as you're willing to extract- you're more in wont to extract more resources out of the earth, no? more "progress", more romantic gestures as such? no? tell me i'm wrong.




Ah', the philosopher's black and white depiction of the world.. You're either wanking yourself off with romantic diction or you're a robber barron of destruction sucking the earth dry.. Somewhere out there in the real world, there is a middle ground.. It's where I live and in that realize the time/energy that it requires that results in me not being a self masturbator of language and thought forms.


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
all languages, like you said. so what's your point? that the number rules all? that the brain? the face? what is your point?




It's a point you'll never seemingly see wanking off in the hall of mirrors of language... That is my point. The real meat and substance of life/intellect simply pass you by because your brain is so obsessed with language/philosophy you see no point beyond your limited bubble of ROMANTIC thought. I walked away from this years ago. I know the textbook sign of it. How many posts have gone by with nothing of value said? This is normal to you...

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
ok, Tesla. i'm sure your courting genius levels of curiosity on the daily, and you'll enlighten the social world and civilization anyday now with something that will fill the void of their lives with, surely, something that is entertaining and not just "end-of-life necessity" like a medical cause, and "fructifying progress into the stars" with spaceships and maybe even space-mining, and there'll be annoying gadflies then, too, to pester you, annoy you, simply be speaking, right?




The ride never ends when your nose is this far in the air
:canthelpbutlaugh:

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you seem to admire these people, but you think that there is no room in society for such "faults" of all-too-human cognition, though...that...is merely an opinion. a lot of people value the stability of a recreation beyond pure number.






I admire these people?
:loldongs:
Look at yourself m8...

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
conlangs have motives, like Toki Pona was constructed sort of for reasons that are highlighted above, namely, retention...but also a nonplussing language, to make people "kinder" and nicer overall.







Enjoy that beautiful world you crafted.. I know the reality.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26396627 - 12/23/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Holy shit dude you're my new favorite poster on here, by miles. Saving this spot when I get back.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26397132 - 12/23/19 10:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm highlighting the origin of the 'art form' you seem most enamored by. Per your logic : Slang, Hood lingo, netspeak, and memes are of similar arbitrary value as the airy words which you favor.




and i wouldn't disagree with that at all. you see? you think "airy highfalutin words", i'm just thinking "words".

Quote:


Enjoy that beautiful world you crafted.. I know the reality.




you keep assuming things: i never said that the above conlang was "super duper great" or anything, you're just assuming that i'm praising it. stop. it's disingenuous malarky.

Quote:

I admire these people?



you think i admire Oxford? their dictionary sucks [they invent notions that do not exist, like "identitarianism" being a purely "ethnonationalist" phenomenon, even though it's just another word for "identity politics". the only dictionary i see get that one right is wiktionary] and they have some pedos hooked in over there...no, another failed prediction on your part. you're misreading me. i never said that you must admire them, i said "it seems you admire" them, and "them" was never "Oxford", but "them" meant "writers", like the fucking thing we were actually referring to...so again...take your disingenuous shit and try a little harder to make less foolish ascertainment.

Quote:

The ride never ends when your nose is this far in the air




you've proven nothing.

Quote:

It's a point you'll never seemingly see wanking off in the hall of mirrors of language... That is my point. The real meat and substance of life/intellect simply pass you by because your brain is so obsessed with language/philosophy you see no point beyond your limited bubble of ROMANTIC thought. I walked away from this years ago. I know the textbook sign of it. How many posts have gone by with nothing of value said? This is normal to you...




nothing of value? that's totally subjective. i've gotten nothing of value out of your posts, either. the real "substance" of life is not something people can pin-down so easy [philosophers and sociologists and anthropologists, etc., have tried for a long time], but i'd say everything up to and including the processes of the earth, and the mantic inclinations of a human soul, a human's personality, a human's desires, their thralldom in the viewing of their living self in existence, is a part of the language of reality.

Quote:

Ah', the philosopher's black and white depiction of the world.. You're either wanking yourself off with romantic diction or you're a robber barron of destruction sucking the earth dry.. Somewhere out there in the real world, there is a middle ground.. It's where I live and in that realize the time/energy that it requires that results in me not being a self masturbator of language and thought forms.




sure, you "accomplish" something by doing nothing. except that that isn't true, is it? you're masturbating right now, aren't you? why? aren't you just wasting your time, and mine?

Quote:

I'm spend more of my time living life than philosophizing about it. This includes meta topics. This results in me not having alot of time to masturbate to theoretical language constructs and thoughts about it. I forgot, at what point I came to such a conclusion in my college education in philosophy.. But i distinctly remember a scholarly debate with a professor that resulted in a twisted circle jerk of language that arrived at nothing at which point i saw into his world and wanted nothing to do with such a self-immersed existence.




no one is stopping you. go bungie jumping or something. most of these ideas, including yours, are subjective and/or merely theoretical.

Quote:

A healthy mix of all things is good. People's narrow focus and specialization is what plagues the earth currently. Everyone further wants to pretend they're something their not through images and language.




yes, i've talked to people about the role of overspecialization in the current paradigms problematics, that you find people discussing all the time. and? people pretend about everything. even you. you're pretending right now, even by your own logic.

Quote:

Will isn't everything. Spend less time masturbating to language/philosophy and more time studying science and you'll learn this.




yeah, well, i didn't say it was "everything". you haven't said anything here, just another "retort" of empty words.

Quote:

Spend less time in artsy fartsy books and pick up some books on neuroscience. You'll learn alot more about how your brain works and language even. You'll pick up scientific language/understanding that nullifies most philosophical bs from the past and you'll speak more intelligently in the present and future. DAT SUNK COST AT PLAY




i already read neuroscience. floating data points, brainwaves [gamma, delta, theta, etc.,] did YOU get the memo?

Quote:

I'm done after this post. I've wasted enough of my life masturbating with myself and others in the realms of philosophy. I have been missing for some time for this reason. Just dropping in towards the new year to see if any minds have changed and are oriented towards what's coming or hae interest. Apparently not.. Apparently art forms of old still capture minds of plenty. O'well.




whoa, you're lightyears ahead of everyone, and wow you like know me and everything about me, your presumption that i am just all about everything i've said as arguments in this thread is just all i ever really think about or partake in. you like know this by way of super powers! you're something, you're really something!

Quote:

So I investigated further and found its source. I don't determine value. I'm a nobody. I extend this out to others especially those steeped in an old tradition of elitism. It's your thing I guess.. Cool.



and yet LOOK at you hypocritically trying to determine value for ME! all while assuming that "this is all that i'm about", when it's not. i have more interests that this, but you've assumed too much, already. not that that bothers me, this is typical human behavior.

Quote:


My point to be blunt was: Don't smell your own academic/self read farts so much that you think because you have an artful expression of words that you're an :
> Intellect
> Big brain

The great polymaths of the world don't take on the characteristics you extol. Quite the opposite.




there aren't many polymath left in the world, as there is so little time to study. and what are you talking about? you're acting like i started this tirade...you did. i'm responding TO YOU. not the other way around.

Quote:


I'm not wrong in the slightest sense and please don't engage in psychological projection. While it appears I clearly am a man of science, I also maintain an extended study of what appears to be your bread and butter.. Enough such that I can cut through bs with ease. My point of referring to what modern elites (wealthy people) are now and how they speak was to take a dump on the art form of past modern elites (wealthy people) and artsy/fartsy language expression. True of today as it was then : Stop feeling yourself. You're nobody in the grand scheme of things. Nobody cares for your overly obtuse non-productive old-english art form expression. The same way no learned person cares for some tech billionaires grandiose bullshit.




wow, i shudder at your in-depth analysis, those boots, boy, they were made for walking, and you're doin' it...heck it's making me quake in mine!

Quote:

Analog isn't a 'floating point' and its operation, in-so-much as the brain is concerned is not known. And no your brain has nothing to do w/ meme-learning statistics and RELU.



intelligence reports beg to differ. plus, i didn't say the brain itself was a mathematical object, i said there are floating data points in your neuronal structure...there is "overflow", "run-off", from neuronal activity.

Quote:


Yes, you are failing to 'see' yourself and your hobby for what it is so here we are still working through it. I'm done however. I know this pattern of exchange quite well when dealing with certain types who bask in self-masturbatory philosophy and I know having broken such individuals down with far more confronting language what the common intent is behind it .. As I have outlined earlier.




again, i'm so quivering right now.

Quote:

I'm the guy with a Graduate degree in Computer Science who is telling you, even in this specialty, there are features of the language that are never used because in REALITY they lead to shitty performance, in-stable systems, and it is pointless which is why even in computing, most of the features of a language are never used because the ARTISANS who authored them were engaging in self-masturbation for the sake of language and that leads not to a higher meta understanding/practice of the world.. It leads you down a self-flattering and crappy trip through the language author's mind and a crappy inner trip down your own hall of mirrors.




grammarians of old were real sneaky. you know what call the delusion of language? hypnothesis. but alas...you're using language to waste your time with me...why bother? maybe the same reasons i have bothered...no? now, go back to programming some stuff.

Quote:

You play with language so much you perceive a depth that isn't there in reality. It's all in the hall of language you have constructed in your head which gets me to the point I made about NEGATIVE returns playing with language too much. You begin to 'see' structure that isn't there. Your brain stops trying to perceive the world and its complexities as it is and instead begin trying to ascribe high art language qualities that aren't there. The classic entrapment of the lifelong philosopher..




yeah, no shit, but you're ascribing this to me, and to basically anyone you label as "philosopher". you know how many shitty programs have been written? tons. please, stop acting so high and mighty and calling me a piece of shit, when i can agree with you, mostly, just not your attitude...nor your imaginings that you are floating above this all like a colossus of genius intellect because you figured out that people can be full of themselves [sort of like you].

Quote:

You learn not to because it results in shitty performance and unpredictable and unstable code.



the encoding of the entire system is unstable, and will remain that way until we are all made into robots. the coding of the government is unstable, the coding of jobs are unstable, the coding of work itself, is unstable, the coding of love and life is unstable, the coding of families are unstable, the coding of everything goes into an overcoding and contains instability with stop-gap procedures.

SO!? what THE FUCK are you gonna do about it? NOTHING.

Quote:


Not everyone steeped in the art of language is an intellect. You usually are able to decipher this through extended exchange. Limits can be surmounted if a person seeks growth/progress and has intention/goal behind their day to day actions. I can't imagine how one achieves that smelling their high art circular farts/philosophy all day...




yeah, the smell of coding-farts are sooooo much more enjoyable.

Quote:


We call that art/social science.. And there's a reason why it is considered to be a lesser degree of higher education.




build more buildings. build more computers...no one fucking cares if you do, because they will adjust and then find things to complain about later, and it'll all be based on the lacking humanity that all these devices engender into society.

Quote:

And depending on the nature of a thing ... i.e : Intellectual masturbation,  entertainment and there being no higher value beyond that.




and you think not with words, but with code! [even though that's just another language, them damn elites!] but of course we know that's false...you think with words...we all think WITH WORDS.

Quote:

You believe creative communication art forms relate to intellect. Per your thinking those steeped in : slang, hood speak, netspeak, and memes
are underappreciated Artisans of higher minded society...




you already failed and were mistaken in this regard. you assumed.

Quote:

What I'm slowly unwinding to you is that the outdated nasally practices of old English have been replaced in modern times by netspeak/slang/memes. It's a far more effective expression of the same thing. A picture is worth a thousand words after-all. Who knows all the memes but an Artisan of high station of the modern web? Who pray tell is so free of worldly requirements but a NEET in a basement eating mum's tendies such that he may imbue his mind with memes aplenty?




dude, i bolded the really highfalutin (???) confusing language you used that really upset me. but other than that...yeh, no, you've not "unwound" me. i appreciate the language of memes and netspeak, to an extent.

Quote:

. They opined what life was like outside of their manner/station but never truly lived it... which is why their banter was so dry/shallow/weak. You can struggle as much as you like to posture in a different manner but you know these words to be true.




yeah, well, context matters. make a fucking point. give some context, instead of saying some people were full of shit in the past, hence, that invalidates the use of half the dictionary of English words, cause i've got a stick up my ass about elitism. don't worry, we all do.

Quote:

It is for the sake of reverence for the pleb/idiot who lives life fully immersed vs. the academic who theorizes as to the experience from an ivory tower ad nauseam. Both extremes are steeped in the same ignorance of the middle fulfilling path. Listening to excessive verbiage about simple things or muddling complex things with flatulent words/posture is as excruciating as listening to an idiot




sorry^ too many big words, too idiotic, didn't read.

Quote:

You can't.. I have feet in many worlds. I know what they are in essence.
You're having a good wank bruhv, bumpin your gums but aint sayin chit.
There's no wool.. and my eyes are wide open calling it what it is.




you've mismanaged the context here. i never said i was trying to pull the wool over "your eyes", my statement was completely different than that...so your reading comprehension is failing you...now? now, after all of this, this is what you come up with? this pushback of "you won't pull the wool over my eyes", well, i'm not really trying to. you seem to be doing a good enough job of that, yourself.

Quote:

Platitudes :
n.
Flatness; dullness; insipidity of thought; triteness.

As I stated earlier before this wank-fest.




you haven't really made a point, all you've done is make a diatribe about how "people who use highfalutin speech or sesquipedalian language piss me off, personally".

Quote:


And some people like to fill the air/time with their own farts of Flatness; dullness; insipidity of thought; triteness.




i can see that.

Quote:

Whatever becomes of this foolishness you clearly concede is :
- Platitude
- entertainment

Time has no value to you?




first off, that's a platitude. you and your notion of "high-minded language is for elite pretentious fart-sniffers only, and they ruin everything with their bad coding!" is just a platitude, a shibboleth. secondly: are you not entertained? i am, hence, value.


also, take note: you never address MY main point. you eagerly avoided it. YOUR ELITE LANGUAGE ... is number and code.

prove me wrong.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 02:32 PM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Registered: 02/19/18
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26398141 - 12/23/19 07:14 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I made a post.. You responded directly to me with :

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
language is like this: when you increase your vocabulary, it's like when you increase any other skill set...you are garnering memoragic data, like RAM in a computer, and improving the routing in your brain...it's like neuronal tracing, only by microform details, like the graphism of the letter.





Things went off the rails here because this is neither how a computer or brain functions. If you spend time researching either, you learn this.

My first post was in response to Divided Quantum.
You replied to me. Then I responded to you and this who drama got kicked off. I explained to you in quite simple terms why you were wrong and even agreed to a middle ground with reference to a 'high average' here :
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26395951#26395951

Then came the foolishness that was steeped neither in science or computing and instead artistic philosophy of your own making. For which I entertained because you sounded intelligent and I thought you were trying to get to something of higher intelligence but the more things went on, it was just 'art'. My first post was my point. My first response to you was my point. You missed this because you intended to engage in art. The only intelligent discussion could have been about neuroscience or computing because that's the context of my initial post and the context of your initial reply. We danced around and had a good ol' time and I was reminded of something from my past which I knew to be a waste of time and called it quits.

What has happened thus far and up until now in human history is that all of the cool and deep stuff has already been done. There's really no more grand philosophy to discuss. So, philosophers are bored and make up conversation and debates.. The same actually goes for a number of other disciplines. For most of academia... Even corporate America.

The next thing is there if people combined disciplines but everyone is stuck in their respective 'towers' of specialization huffing farts. Eventually they will be combined and something great will come of it and it will refresh and give everyone something new to talk about. Until then, its comfort around the fireplace I guess..

I came back a week or so before we head into 2020 to see.. after spending some time away if anything has changed.. Is there some new 'meta' being discussed? Some new and deep spiritual insights? Are the people who have dabbled with their third eye even aware or trending on what is to come? And the answer is : Nah.. The same ol' same ol'. What's interesting is, this is pretty much the case almost everywhere.. Which alerts me to the timing of things.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26398238 - 12/23/19 08:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


I made a post.. You responded directly to me with :




no. you...*sigh* you were the last poster before i said that...but i wasn't addressing you just because i said what i said after you said what you said...what? am i supposed to "reply to" someone else who i'm not trying to reply to, in order for you to not be confused? well, sorry...but that's not really gonna help anything, is it? so just stop being confused. i said what i said, and then you said what you said, blah blah blah, you aren't going get a response like "oh you, you're so right, i responded to you! so i must now listen to your ass all day!"

right.

my fucking god...i was actually coming in here to say something...people do not understand exaggeration these days...at all...i think this is a clear-cut example of how this occurs...because people [like you] get confused as all fuck, and then you start trying to preach, and then i'm just responding to your ass, like, WTF ARE YOU ON ABOUT, but my dumb ass falls for this whack-ass preachy diatribe about how you're gonna teach me how to think right, and how to talk right, and act right, wtf are you my fucking mom & dad? you're gonna teach me about how to respond to you?


WTF


this is like one of the Youtube videos i'm watching now...lol, it really is.

:cockafuck:


PS: the rest of your post i hardly read but...good for you. i'm happy that you're happy.

:tryingnottodie:


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26398274 - 12/23/19 08:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:


I made a post.. You responded directly to me with :




no. you...*sigh* you were the last poster before i said that...but i wasn't addressing you just because i said what i said after you said what you said...what? am i supposed to "reply to" someone else who i'm not trying to reply to, in order for you to not be confused? well, sorry...but that's not really gonna help anything, is it? so just stop being confused. i said what i said, and then you said what you said, blah blah blah, you aren't going get a response like "oh you, you're so right, i responded to you! so i must now listen to your ass all day!"

right.

my fucking god...i was actually coming in here to say something...people do not understand exaggeration these days...at all...i think this is a clear-cut example of how this occurs...because people [like you] get confused as all fuck, and then you start trying to preach, and then i'm just responding to your ass, like, WTF ARE YOU ON ABOUT, but my dumb ass falls for this whack-ass preachy diatribe about how you're gonna teach me how to think right, and how to talk right, and act right, wtf are you my fucking mom & dad? you're gonna teach me about how to respond to you?


WTF


this is like one of the Youtube videos i'm watching now...lol, it really is.

:cockafuck:


PS: the rest of your post i hardly read but...good for you. i'm happy that you're happy.

:tryingnottodie:




Easy solution... *Heads over to user settings and forgets this ever transpired.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26398440 - 12/23/19 11:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

ahaha, i knew you would do that. boy, you really got...oh what's the meme again... oh right...


boy, i trigger all the "superskeptic reality busters", even Loaded Shaman nig'd me, and i thought he and i were on the same ontological-rationalist page, but boo-hoo, he mad.

you people are too much.  :poast:

PS: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26398259#26398259

i defy anyone to tell me this post doesn't exude highfalutin fart smell.

....

i rest my case.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 12:45 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26398485 - 12/24/19 01:27 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Akira is a tool that has to leave low ratings on people that already had him blocked for months for this exact type of shit.

Fool left me a 0 star rating after I had him blocked so I wouldn't have to interact with his lack of understanding of rational philosophy.

That right there is a desperate person in need for validation, because they know they have nothing.

Don't take it to personal, you're triggering his insecure ass because you're correct.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/24/19 01:33 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26398490 - 12/24/19 01:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

whatever, though...here is a quote from someone that explains language in a way, a very concise way, if you simply read between the lines:

"...but like in a subconscious way [someone knows a word they mean to say], but when asked [what the word means, to the person, one] doesn’t know how to word it. A lot of people do that, especially if they like learning weird words".


this explains alot of why i have learned my vocabulary...this susses everything, and is quite sound: i have always been able to think of words that i wanted to use to describe something, and my mind, i guess, seems to like to pick up on "weird words" [there've been studies on how "word sounds" are attractive to people on a fundamental level], and so subconsciously they've been stored in my memory, and are accessed when i think it's the word to use- this is how i've always operated on the shroomery, hence, why i've often miscalculated and misused words, which i then have to correct [the latter usage of], and/or explain the meaning of my use of the word and the reasoning for the timing my use of the word [kairos], which i mistook for the word i wanted to use to express what my thoughts were- these rare instances are then later corrected, in affirmation to the mistaken identity of the word to the actual proper word i was looking for [if i've been made aware of it, which i usually check]...at this point, i don't really think about it, my vocabulary is pretty maxed out, i'd say- for the most part.

oh and, LS: [you nig'd me, so that's you also being triggered, by the way]

"Some claim that science is the ne plus ultra in the education of human affairs at large, and that what follows is that empiricism is the sine qua non of scientific endeavor. This is the imp of nu-scientism. Truly, and insuperably, the notion follows suit, that it is not empiricism which is sine qua non to science [however of import it may be], but that instead the sine qua non of scientific endeavor is ratiocination, per se. Indeed, science is driven by predilections. Nothing more. This is the sine qua non of science. To be driven by predilection for further discovery. Ratiocination is universal. What is empirical is real qua conception, but 'cannot be universal without the text', however, and is contingent on it [, hence it is absurd to reason that ratiocination is at the behest of empiricism as a tool, and not the other way around], seeing as we don't all share the same sense organs, q.e.d."

Loaded Shaman, i've already assessed what you've conceptualized in form. good day. you have completely misapprehended [and are another new fangled "my way or the highway" individuals who need to have things done "precisely your way", because logic outside your bubble eludes you, you can't communicate or even reason that there is communication that isn't "logical" by your "exact standards", which aren't even consistent in reality, they are mere fibers which need to be coded to your particular parochialistic "language" which only you can "see" people communicating with you using "your logic", which you simply call "logic".

it's ludicrous. you're unrealistic. and you're not even wrong.

and no, you're not triggering me: no. you [both] left me bad ratings, i simply returned the favor, and simply corrected rootcomplex's earlier good rating from me. you've betrayed me, in a sense. this is what you get...you've not won any battles, here, but it's HYSTERICAL that you think that some ratings are enough to "evince" this for you, in delusion.

PS: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26143774#26143774

another esoteric ontology.

what have you done lately?


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 02:43 AM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Language [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26398515 - 12/24/19 02:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Akira is a tool that has to leave low ratings on people that already had him blocked for months for this exact type of shit.

Fool left me a 0 star rating after I had him blocked so I wouldn't have to interact with his lack of understanding of rational philosophy.

That right there is a desperate person in need for validation, because they know they have nothing.

Don't take it to personal, you're triggering his insecure ass because you're correct.




Yeah, I just saw a shroom fall off my rating. It's all good. I didn't engage him further with the intent of starting a flame war. I actually had this crazy hope he'd see himself and try to center on a goal/point to his high minded/artful language.

I just got done with a write-up about this very thing in Academia. Too many people smelling their own farts instead of moving the ball forward collaboratively. I seemingly always have a higher minded goal behind my actions. It's been shocking lately to drill it out with a person and have them come to realize/state they don't.. Like what? They often say 'I do it for entertainment' or 'just to pass time'. And I'm sitting here deeply into my pursuit to understand the universe and I realize I'm speaking with people who have no such drive. They're literally just humping around the human experience for the feels. What? Who does that with their life?

Language.. Yeah, there's the 'human' interpretation of it and then there's the functional/directional aspect of it. I'm a human being so I ofc got the feel-zone interpretation like everyone else.. But that's native and base-level.. Once I discovered the functional/directive aspect, I stopped indulging in the feel-zone.

Richard Feynman - Names Don't Constitute Knowledge..
'I refuse to learn the names of things because knowing the name doesn't constitute knowledge'... A profound and true intellect :


Would walk circles around some of the best philosophers.

Sure a person can know the language/names of a thing and go on and on and on about it and still know nothing.. Have no true understanding and its pointless to spend extended time with such a person because they have a mental limitation.. They can't see beyond the language/names into that next functional/directional aspect... Which is why they never seek to build anything in conversation.. They only seek to wax/wayne in the romantic utterance of words... and pull others DOWN into that space.

Screw that man. Philosophy and a number of Academic disciplines are literally in a rut because all the major progress has been made in them and no one wants to take the risk/make the effort to look beyond it. So, lots of adherents are simply romanticizing covered ground. Uttering the names of dead men and ideas as if they are great minds by association. A big change is coming and from that new and exciting 'work' humanity will  progress from there. Until then, its rather pointless this circling of the same wagons. It's almost like a waiting pattern until the next break through... Of course, no one in this formation is willing to step out and strike anew.. They'll wait instead on the odds to finally favor a pioneer meanwhile spitting on them and kicking them along the way for good measure for stepping out of the 'tribe'.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26398525 - 12/24/19 02:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Absolutely. The assumptions, mostly platonic/determinism, poison both science and philosophy with completely irrational metaphysical primary(s).


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26398532 - 12/24/19 02:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That right there is a desperate person in need for validation, because they know they have nothing.




you people always want to exaggerate. :lol: that is, when it suits you to, when it "makes you feel better", you can make hyperbolic claims of my insincerity, but when it comes to coming up with a counterargument, it's nothing but more exaggerations, only of the sort where "i'm just so-and-so" and how you're not gonna deal with that!...it's the same with all you hardheads who think you know it all.

LOL, it's typical.

Quote:

And I'm sitting here deeply into my pursuit to understand the universe and I realize I'm speaking with people who have no such drive. They're literally just humping around the human experience for the feels. What? Who does that with their life?




oh boy...do i have to try and explain to you that i do the same thing too?

is that how ludicrous you are?

Quote:

The assumptions, mostly platonic/determinism




"Plato believed rhetoric was to truth as cookery was to medicine. Cookery disguises itself as medicine and appears to be more pleasing, when in actuality it has no real benefit."

another one up against you. you use these terms willy-willy and you don't know their scope. "platonism" isn't your enemy, there was the unwritten doctrine, you sophomoric sophist. there is your fucking direction, it's within, it's spiritual, you...*sigh*  :sammy:

Quote:

Language.. Yeah, there's the 'human' interpretation of it and then there's the functional/directional aspect of it. I'm a human being so I ofc got the feel-zone interpretation like everyone else.. But that's native and base-level.. Once I discovered the functional/directive aspect, I stopped indulging in the feel-zone.




lol, sure, you aren't doing any of this writing based off of 'feelings', none at all....

you aren't being rational.

ratiocination is had only with volition, and volition requires vitality, it requires motoricity, it requires a "leap" into action [otherwise, you'd be in a state of 'aboulia']...and knowing how to act...it requires feelings to coordinate the logical decision to take said "leap", and this leads to the action whereby you can coordinate decisions based off of logic, and reason, outside of 'feeling'. but you are still dwelling in 'feeling'. you aren't 'knowing' what you are saying you have the answers for...which is why i laugh and will continue to. [one also shouldn't confuse 'feeling' for 'emotions', they're two different things. one is sensory, the other metaphysical and extrasensory.]

PS: you all nigged me cause you can't take opposition...pathetic. we even agree on most things, but...you won't see.... :shrug:

Quote:


Annoyingly Rational Skeptic





who can't put up opposition that's fitting for him, so he puts people on ignore, cause they out-annoy him.

enjoy your echo chamber.




here's some of the things i've written, already, that are all in the same vein as what you two are jerking off about:

§1: To be motivated by ideologies & ideograms/ideographs [words] is to be within a aggregate which is subsumed by memes which engulfs into multiplicities, at any rate—only the flows & holes made creates channels which feed into the symbolized or iconified architectonic aggregate.

§2: The "perfusion" of aggregates into multiplicities are memetic in nature, that is to say, they are libidinal/information investments that are communicable [& not merely mimesis or copying, per se—this "copying" occurs when agents operate within an accretion, not otherwise].

§3: A 'memetic accretion disk' is a zone of "memetic zero", which confers a coterminus loop with the inside/outside. This "leap of translationability" is what determines a rhizomatic effect/affection.

oh look

§⁂: The universe is built infinitely recursive, where the information serves thermodynamic entropy—and entropy, negentropy—and viz. that selfsame process, the reverse is fed into the universe—and the universe, as much as we are built into "it", "it" is built into our cells/self.

(Scholium, 1: It should be noted [it's been expounded on, elsewhere] that the "metaverse" theory only serves as a useful metaphor for recursion in a subjective/objective psychegenic split in the symmetry of the universe, in that you have asymmetry and antisymmetry.)

Scholium, 2: It could be said that the antisymmetry of the universes' "outside" [which is it's 'solve' for recursion] is self reference itself [cf. Kant, Gö-del, et al.] & could be said to be in a state[ment-is] of cryostasis, and on the other hand, that "sound" is it's result.


oh no

The world around you does effect you. These people with a lack of meaning in their lives are the same kind of people who need religion in their lives...it's a commonality, is what I am saying. There are kinds of people who cannot find meaning within their own self. It's a common trait throughout most of human history. You are seeing the nihilating of the world at large, right now; these people aren't born nihilated...they are nihilated because they have no meaning that they can hold on to without it being turned into dust and flying away into the void of space. Does one think if you just had infinite amounts of tidings and work, and these progressives weren't around, that you wouldn't ever struggle with your quotidian existence?...I'm just saying, it ain't all that uncommon as a regular defining human trait, in existence, as opposed to just some "new thing".

oh gosh, it's just like you guys say! gasp!

People are incapable of processing information critically, in the online domain [the pedagogy of the damned]. People often use critiques posed by other people [usually their betters] as an offensive or defensive attack against views that they loathe [usually from repetition, quotidian redundancy, or indoctrination], and usually without having sussed the views that the critique they are appropriating from the critic actually are [that is to say, the work hasn't been done to investigate the critique by one's own inspection]. This makes information inherently dangerous.


oh but you'll never see it!

Deductive reasoning is key, but the suppositions needs meet a leap of faith: truth in objective terms, which must always been heeded as only "potential" without circumspection, and therewith, afterwards, one follows the clews which lead to the truth thereby deduced to be able to be found, by asking, primarily, the question which was based not on induction [signifying only an adducing within a paradigm already well-explored], or simply the deductive reasoning [wherewith you may or may not be totally true, but in all probability, are sussing some kind of truth, even if minutely, whereby it can be sussed, or not] of asking the question that hasn't been evinced by empirical evidence [that is to reason by tautology, but only using the principal of sufficient reason], but by reasoning what is something to be looked upon and searched for within reason and then found - so both induction and deduction are twain in this very regard, for science to even persist, these two things are both needed, are both integral.

cause you're being cowards

There is an objective reality. It is called "the universe". That is the objective reality. The rest is utterly subjective, and where at least the tools are concerned [the technics and organs/bodies we use to manipulate those technics, the mechanical but also 'machinic' aspects of ourselves], we are only able to use these tools interpretively. You need numbers to have objective fact, but numbers are moving all the time, at an objective rate, but this rate is arbitrarily "objective" [it's ostensibly only a vicissitude of systems in universal terms], that is, it's effectuated by subjective forces [you, and I]. Where our subjective realities meet in objective terms, is through bodies, thru affects [read Spinoza- objectively, not as a religious aspect, but as an essentialist theory]. It is thru the psychegenic faculties of consciousness that we interact, in the vast sea of data. But, essentially, you can suss objective reality thru mathematics, and using physics- mass & gravity are the two harbingers of the ends of this objectivity. Then after that, is the notion of an aether. Photons are what make up the universe in it's finest aspect, all time and space is subject to it. Chronons [and the asymmetric counterpart Chorons] make up the spacetime fabric of our quantum 6x6 orthogonal universe of sinusoid waves of floating points, at rest only in illusion, constantly in spin. Science [with math, not just "I see, therefor..."] can deduce what philosophers and spiritual teachers have said for quite awhile now. And if you were just dreaming, then I'm you, so...think about it. [This is sussed using the principal of sufficient reason.]

and i've already done did "transcended" ya'll

Some people can have experiences of a certain sort, that they confuse as "God", when really it's just "Being". Coming into Being. Being is that which is without a known cause and without language or reason, this is the place where "morals" come from, because in such a way, one's system of thought, and thusly, ethics, that they were ingrained with [or not] in their life, breaks down, and they must think totally for themselves...at this stage, you could experience vivid visions because your thoughts are conceived of so lucidly they they flash before your eyes. When a certain reticulating system in your brain's neocortex is stifled [which you do induce with maddening devices such as automatic writing, or something], you lose track of the constant semiotic flow from your mind [and it's extension to the outside world, from your head]. This can be experienced and you can summarily come back from it. This would mean it isn't schizophrenia but another kind of experience which is met temporarily- then you come back to a meet lucidity of normality. However, most people think of this as a "religious experience" [your brain has centers for such processes, you know], and while it technically is...people thinking of that as "God" have always been...aloof and mistaken. And yes, if one experiences this, one can be on track for a mental breakdown. This kind of thing has been known to provoke a mental breakdown. It's also possible to not have that occur- perhaps if this kind of thing is induced, it's easier to come back from- I don't know.


and have already covered your ground.








=) the enervated have ceased to be able to put up a line of opposition, so they must retreat.

but they will, in big blocks of text, tell me how i need to "narrow things down", make it smaller...make it better for them.

always.

§ [S]egmenting the "machinic" from the "vital" aspects of mankind will not induce anyone to forsake the malfeasance of human kind in their high places, and synarchic lines will continue to unfold, in a manner unbefitting for "a commons". The "tragedy of the commons" is not wrong, and synarchic lines will continue to proof the efficacy of human malfeasance.

§ Conflating progressive ideology with "communism" at every turn is really showing how lacking in education most people are, in respects to anything outside of their typical "domain" of experience. If institutions/corporations imbibe "woke" progressivism to relieve monetary debt, they are not being communists, they are being socialist-capitalists.

§ Subsidies are an issue. Mortgage-backed securities are an issue. No wonder subsidies & cheap mortgages are being pushed on the market—tender floating for land use, big business, etc., is a driving factor in the economy; your housing isn't—but banks still need your cash or credit.

§ Modal systems of world-building made from predilections, as opposed to necessary explanatory systems: the world-at-large.

§ It's convenient to believe that "money" & "religion" can't control people with complicity from synarchic lines of the holders of said money & the overseers of said religions, that is, 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘂𝘁 media being implicit in their decision making.
The medium = the message.

§ After enough layers of lies, they are impossible to discern from one another. Truth is ignored.

§ If "the path of light reflecting from a mirror, the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection", then that would mean that light having a curve, at all, is indicative of a curvature in space-time, or hence, the earth itself.

§ What if reality is nothing but people's subjective interpretations, and what is termed "objective" is just notional? that is to say, what if the "objective" is merely a instantiation of all perspectives, held at once, and that the "truth" is simply what we engender in the world?

§ Just some speculation. No one can say what is or isn't objective and what is or isn't subjective, without stepping into the realms of both at once; the subjective [which is a supposed "limit"] and the "objective" [again, being supposed as a "limit"] being twain at this level.


§ An encapsulation of Tradition: sitting at table, old and young, merry conversation, sup, and agreement.

§ There are memes regarding generational gaps, in both directions of past and futurity, which are currently extant in usage, which don't serve Tradition.

§ [A]ll these notions called "communism", "socialism", "capitalism", "fascism" [especial to take note of this "third position"] are ideographs, they can be used for any advantage that's liable to be fitted to it's use, per se. Hence the worry about "the meme's affects", here and there. Memes can also be used against the one which fits the meme the most, even in the positive sense.

§ Memes are borne straight from the minds of men who enact their desires, without conforming to a triangulation and a "conservative movement", a movement which doesn't exist as is, without triangulation.

§ 'Being-made-to-fit' [triangulation]: a premise [thus extension] for war, for language itself, for communication, for action, for society, and the ethnos.

§ Mimesis [on the otherhand] is 𝗻𝗼𝘁 so bad. It allows communication to transcend [transmit fully] a dedication in producing desire, and connection [even if it's still limited, alas- "three's a crowd"]. On the transverse end of this equation, you also have a transmitted "fill" when gaps abound; this can be disheartening but ultimately, it's something to be worked-thru, and actually it proves helpful, implicitly.

§ Most people tend to get joy out of sociality [and then there are sociopaths & psychopaths]. This shows that our end goal is just and righteous. It's just getting there that's seemingly impossible. Probably because we have become [or always were] dysfunctional.

§ We have lost the "ground" that our forebears delineated and are now driven not by our personal proclivities, but instead, by our misplaced & selfish desire to have those individual proclivities dispossessed for the sake of conformity—to mimic what we've forgotten.

§ Beauty in comedy is an ugly place; the art of which can only be sussed in the making of tragedy, and turning away from the earnest to [the] core of the loss in the most significant way, as the subject of the tragedy is always the object[ive] of the comedy.

§ Comedians generate laughter by injections of micromemes into syntax: this is how, for example, one can simply engender the audience [of a medium] to imagine a 'sweater', if you will, for when I say the word they are primed, even in a context of a line of pure gibberish.

§ Art and politics really are like oil and water, they are essentially a form of modern art [and postmodern art is like setting on fire, and admiring the results, but again, metaphorically speaking—we are also practical & use axiomatics for discretion of provable knowledge].

§ Maybe that's what a Philosopher is? an artist that failed to not get bored: what is this 'boredom' at all if not the distinct distaste for the times which one gets lulled into it? what is "boring" other than that which is that which is a manifest disgust in one's current station?

§ Both scientifically & artistically we are working inversely from properties of elements that are mathematical/precipitable by way of perception, consciousness, intuition, whereby thru induction [mathesis] philosophical/sophisticated constructs are manipulated.

§ Science is merely contrived apparatuses & assemblages [extension-machines], models of predilections, statements of hypotheses, statistics, and codes of conduct [arbitrary recognized signs of reasoning qua empirical denotations of translation into code], via language + mathesis.

§ Ever since science could be considered to be 'right', it's at least been rather poetic.
anybody can come here to see me foregoing these two their own histories.



§1: To adduce linguistic theory in the order of perfection and completion, one must consider the malleability of language, in and of itself, q.e.d.

§2: Claiming that a "linguistic theory" being weaponized thru the notion that "relationships between signifier and signified are arbitrary" doesn't evince any "wrongness" to the theory, but does show an instance of the arbitrariness to the use of the theory.

§3: Usage would dictate how a linguistic theory settles the 𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 of words (specifically), via semantic processing—ideograms hold sway psychologically based on semantic framing, then pragmatics are affected, afterwards, based on usage, if & only if [words] are defined.

§4.1: One needs words [sound-image/sound-tokens] to explain concepts, and those words need to be agreed upon, in usage.

§4.2: (This isn't an argument about a claim of 'weaponization', it's a claim about how that [some] (most) {all, actually} signifiers/signifieds are 'arbitrary'; which I defined the usage of "arbitrary", above, accurately, in this instance.)

§⁂: Symbolic logic/language = Idealized forms ≠ Elements [of Form] = "Nonsense" — Terms of Form = ie., ideologies, thought-forms, concepts, words, etc.

§∞:The infinite thought[s] Godsmile-creator:

§Ʊ: (All I have said was/is true. You think "their relationships are not arbitrary" but they are. 'Usage' is what is "naught arbitrary", concerning language—and regarding linguistic theory, if it's sound, sure it can be weaponized, but it's also still 𝒔𝒐𝒖𝒏𝒅 [eg., "holds water"].)

§ Apolitiea is suburb for grounding one in ratiocination, over "rationalization" [and "empiricism" of feelings].

§ The phrase "now you're talking my language" has turned from a common idiom to simply "$". From basic communication (koine) to the idiom, to the hopelessly abstract. This is the quickest way to define the fine line the brain-trust of social society needs to make.

§ All ideologies are correct and simultaneously gnoseological.

§ Where is the flow release valve everything is accelerating.

§ Yo, it's just them memes and desiring-machines, welcome to the world.

§ The contemporary philosopher has two options: to attempt to naturalize the mystical, or to reify the virtual- that is the theory of an "organic unity" in sociality or "functional economy"- anything less is not "objectively real", but it is 'virtually' acceptable.



i wrote this a few years ago

𝙸𝙽𝙴𝙵𝙵𝙴𝙲𝚃𝙸𝚅𝙴 𝚁𝙷𝙴𝚃𝙾𝚁𝙸𝙲: 𝙾𝚅𝙴𝚁𝚄𝚂𝙴 𝙻𝙴𝙰𝙳𝚂 𝚃𝙾 𝙼𝙾𝚁𝙴 𝙲𝙾𝙽𝙵𝙻𝙰𝙶𝚁𝙰𝚃𝙸𝙾𝙽

§1: [T]he point of effective language is to belittle and disdain the opponent as weak.

§2: n an appropriate context this can help to make a point clear and concise, like a good slogan or epigram. But it's overuse can dilute the power that word holds over your opponent, but even worse, it can lead to giving more ammo to your opponents.

§3: t simply becomes ineffective that way, and thus lends to them being able to formulate their own desiccation around it; those then become bullets, more ammunition for them to use.



LOL!

§1: Subjective realities and objective reality are two different things. What do you all have of the building blocks of reality? what do you know outside of unreality, of "matter"? Reification, duplicity. The objective reality is the plenum. We are all flowing points in waveform.

§2: Our minds are containers [so to speak] of floating data points, and memoragic neuronal structure—cells—and the dynamic make-up of energy which sets it all in motion—which without [that] we'd be unbounded, collapsed into zero. [Wavefunctions 'collapse' into existence. Weird.]

§3: Beyond that which subjects encounter as experience in this waveform, we are all One. A projection of reality itself, within white holes, or "pores", aqueducts of actual reality [actual motion].


lol, i've already wrote all the things you two are talking about.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

§ Intuition and conjecture are the elements of thought qua thinking-cognitive process, but not more: the basic necessities before the conclusive 'whyfor'.

§ These such statements should [be] considered heuristic at a plateau [double-bind] which can affirm a better conversive model [truer statement].

§ The world and it's history, contemporary politics and civility, society and it's antecedents, are all tied to a conundrum of mass proportions. Hence, many a conjecture will have plenty of room to be wrong, as well as potentially right, in any given circumstances.

§ There will [usually] be errors in ones' predilections. All my assessment & findings collated together [the good—the bad—the contradictory] compile a road map of my automath education.

§ If something "breaches scientific convention" and yet still works in "an occult fashion" [cf. Leibniz vs Newton], it's validity holds true, regardless of the fashion in which it keeps hold [cf. Special Relativity].

§ There should be made clear the distinction[s] between established fact—insuperable fact & established fear—insuperable fear.

§ Before...we were tools of our own ambitions, but production of our own desires. Then before that we were unknown creatures of a fœtus of a mass concrescence of cells which dwelt in darkness & hidden movements in the lightning jungles of carnavaleux-masques.

§ ℬℯ𝒻ℴ𝓇ℯ '𝓌ℯ' "𝓌ℯ" 𝓌ℯ𝓇ℯ 𝓃ℴ𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓃ℊ. 𝒴ℴ𝓊, ℴ𝓇 ℐ, 𝒽ℴ𝓌ℯ𝓋ℯ𝓇, 𝒾𝓈 ℴ𝓃ℯ 𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓃ℊ 𝒶𝓁𝓉ℴℊℯ𝓉𝒽ℯ𝓇 𝓈ℴ𝓂ℯ𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓃ℊ 𝒹𝒾𝒻𝒻ℯ𝓇ℯ𝓃𝓉.


literally everything! that's why you were liking what i was saying before, Shaman...until you had one line of contention with me [probably a misunderstanding] and you get defensive when i shoot you a rating for nigging me? lol, run away, dude, you can't take the heat.


Quote:

A big change is coming, academics have gotten nowhere!




sure, cultist.

§1: What needs be accounted for is even the smallest things [within reason], seeing that anything less would contradict the principal of a sufficient reason, in and of itself, being that one does not want 'wrong' or 'harm' done to their person [reasonably so].

§2: But that 'not accounting' so for even any one thing is sufficient to betray that principal; hence, the contretemps of the courtroom and judges [of corruption], and madmen, and like contraindications of multiplicities.

§3: [W]hich multiplicities make needs for the state-proceeding of leveling what is small with proportionality: a making small of that which is big, and then visa-versa, in penalty and 'coercion of justice' [economical-gearshafts], or ie., the prison-body.


ta-da! alrady got you guys covered, so you two don't even need to waste all your precious time spewing all those wasteful words! =D

but here is where you get sad:

§ Language does create a curve-time warp and woof.

§ But no, rather, language 'distributes' itself across this plane.

§ The refraction for the wont of representation creates the inflection of all chaos.


oh but...but language is just wasteful! boo-boo, the academics were WRONG!

says two people who think they are smarter than all academia.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 06:24 AM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Language [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26398547 - 12/24/19 03:03 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Absolutely. The assumptions, mostly platonic/determinism, poison both science and philosophy with completely irrational metaphysical primary(s).




The greeks and Romans trunk lifted the bulk of their work from prior civilizations that maintained deeper knowledge/understanding. This is not to say there is some ancient meta magic secret out there.. Instead it is stated to take note of a natural cycle that occurs at many different scales : The unaccredited ovewriting of original ideas/understanding by lessor minds. If you've studied enough about history and a read enough, you can see the tell tale signs.. Typically lots of excessive language and redirection.. Skirting around the truth that they got the original idea elsewhere. Once you find the original author, ah' it just flows through your mind and out your finger tips and tongue (the understanding). One of my big breaks along my journey was understanding that a lot of history was bogus and a lot of true pioneers unmentioned because they didn't fit 'the narrative'. I got off into ventures into these people's lives and thoughts and found profound things over time. Plato and the other famous greeks/romans don't even register beyond my formal education which extends to a high level. I always found the material dry and void of life.. After I graduated and began pursuing deeper truths, I came to understand why. These people formalized a language around constructs that weren't their original thoughts or deeply understood thoughts. This extends to the highest reaches and especially to the outer reaches of math too.. physics and so on and so forth. The formal 'languages' of these disciplines were made by flawed human beings and from their cultural/subjective lensing. It's buried deep within it and compounded with time over longer runs. In this I realized that there are certain points in history when one most break the chains of such histories/languages/well accepted bodies of work, begin again with first principles and replumb from the ground up. For, the corpus becomes such a heavy and inefficient thing to carry, that no one can progress with it.

This sentiment is not held among the academic who is indoctrinated in the 'institutional mind'. It is reserved for the pioneer. One who carries the knowledge of the institutional mind but has a certain lack of respect for it so as to be able to see its flaws and transcend them.


This person has it especially rough due to the nature of what occupies their mind and at what level they must perform. The high chance of failure and a complete lack of support from their peers. The gatekeepers will stone you to death at the mere utterance of such contempt for their body of knowledge.

Alas, we stand on the verge of 20/20... and a bold new frontier.
Theories of the micro, meso, and macro shall be ripped apart and redressed based on new first principles. Old beliefs resigned to the past. A new belief front and center for the future. Until a new generation down the road comes to same cross-roads and strikes the iron while its hot.



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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26398577 - 12/24/19 03:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's all about natural language. What is most naturally good, and not contrary to good, in nature, is language, the word, God. But....

LOL!

they nigged me so they can't see how objectively wrong they are in their assessments about me.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26398532#26398532
it's funny, cause here is all the things they say, already...but it's covered...already...so why do they bother to waste their precious time, which i thought was so extremely important? they don't need to preach here, i've already got them covered, as we're all pretty well saying the same thing...

ain't that a hoot?

here's some more:

Principally, chaos is merely the singular thing of language, verily, in our order of comprehension[s], being that we use language to not only imagine but conceive and thus understand of anything: explicit in this notion, there is the fact of an encapsulation of life, from a single given perspective, but only following logic and ratiocination can this be realized; and barring that, one who can understand the logic inherent inside the encapsulation so well put [if so done] will, in time, give way to an empirical reality that is suitable for another position, when it is an order of a comprehension beyond oneself, and yet is still perceived within a consciousness that is yours and at the same time the consciousness from the words that allow the reasoning to persist as a reposit of the conscious mind of another being, which, may only persist if it's logic was complicit in an informal modal which is simply sussed: chaos is language, and not nature, itself, as nature itself is that of cosmos, which is in contradiction to kosmos, which is born in cosmos, that which is beyond it but yet defines it, as that which produced the like object-subject [and distinction] within the consciousness of being that is the self qua consciousness, and language [chaos] is the inflection of the utterance of the consciousness, in any respect- apart from that we are merely nothing but nature inherent with a quality of chaotic inflection thru language qua language.

Addendum: Chaos is always an inflection of the selfsame mark of the outside that is obnubilation, perceived ostentatious dehiscence from the crowd & parochialism: ignominious gaffs willingly extruded from a mere approach to a mere expression in 'an engendered state while looking different'.

Scholium: Of course, it should be said that "nature" is in it's own predication: but that is it's own consideration for which one can only 'say to have experience of and to be only of experience qua experience itself'.


why, surely the best rationalist explanation of the chaos of human interaction.

i wrote it. not you two. you two, just keep wafting in the wind. you're following my trail.














§ Nothing infantilizes the public mind-set like capitalist-socialist ideology. Every single effect of the world we see today is funded by the super rich, at all sides [and flows into capital markets, "progressivism" invariably included]; in WW1, 2, & now. So, to ignore this fact, seems to be "infantile", indeed.

§ Nationality really isn't the issue. Geography is the issue. And when it comes to history...it seems to be a wholly separate issue from "nationality" as well. The "propaganda" seems to have something to do with bankers who funded pretty much everyone, at one point, in WW1 & 2.

§ (Nationalities [clearly by way of group behavior] are not separate from their homelands. This fact leads to the notion of whether [nations] should approach economies as an autarky, or as more "international".)

§ Is the notion that America is "missing something" [the sole responsibility of their need to 'be like the other good countries']? They already have contributed in this regard- don't act as if they don't still have this responsibility to attend to.

§ "Conservatives" [proletarianized/fascisized] are obsessed with filiative capital & alliances with said affiliates, in their consistent efforts—whence, the concern of the possible ablation of Israeli territory, and of ties to the banking families that have inculcated them.

§  (You would need a militant effort to instill those morals, too. This is the conundrum that no one wants to face. In fact, it's so "unfaceable" as to be nearly hysterical. At any length—I can state this clearly and vehemently, and nothing will be concluded from it.)

§ (Oh these progressive leftists are dupes, for sure. They are being persuaded by monetary gain, in the long run, and are simply allowing themselves to be completely evinced as hypocrites [that they are].)

§ "I think big-wigs who control all our lives for the sake of their growing wallets, are shitty people! But to do anything about them is tantamount to immorality!"

§ Economic forces are becoming smaller, and how consolidation is proceeding into further smaller subsets of growth is by way of said growth-dematerialization this puts power into smaller hands, which are co-opted by larger companies- mostly within the software industry [obviously].

§ [P]opulation growth as well, which includes pop. density in civic centers, and cities; resources [food & water, predominantly] being the prime necessity here- which there is no "infinite growth" therein. We have finite fungible resources to use, at once.

§ ([T]he 'positive-incentive of hunger' results in a 'feeling good' to collect food, and store it, as much as it does to eat. Thing is humans don't have a good indicator of hunger, which is why they can eat so little, if they so choose. The only indicator is pain, which is resolved with so little food. This is the real indicator for survival and desire; actions that people will take. Coercion need not be at the end of a gun.)

§ The whole race thing is a giant foist. Don't you see how effective it is? everyone is in on it, now. Consolidation of powers via the dynamics of coordinating trends and flows of financial support, in order to cement the "mixed culture" of globalism.

§ Race is "becoming" [always] a thing because people refuse to acknowledge that it isn't color or race screwing them over- so hence, they default to race and color. Everyone does—which just engenders a more "vileness" to "whiteness" with which to critique, even though "the people" themselves [at this time] didn't invent these notions—and so they are hence duped into "playing the game". It's a scam, and the psychosis runs on thru it.

§ Without the meter stick of history, left-wing and right-wing advocates have less and less arbitrary factors in their motivations, in contrast to another, and more and more similarities [even if they are still distinct].

§ [L]eft-wing and right-wing ideals are melding. But, however, there is an expurgation going on regarding what of the most "far left" and "far right" values need to be gotten rid of, idealistically.

§ Capitalist-socialist Fabian Society types would love to have world federalization under their synarchic lines of control. But people will never listen, never perk their ears, never follow clews, never do their research. Notice the intergenerational scheme: politicians put out things that have good intentions therein, but they use them as masks for their memetic advantage. Simple as that. They engender every bit of vitriol and sympathy, for people, that they can muster from the public and from their connections. They aren't communists. They are capitalist-socialists. They don't want to highlight class struggle, they want to host hideaway parties for pedos and control the money supply, and trammel people into closer and closer quarters, as the population ravishes the landscape.

§ The funny thing is—and it truly is hysterical—is that the only reason this is happening, is because America was the only nation to break away from [even if temporarily] from banksters and their whims. All other nations are already beholden to them. America, now, as well.

§ Crisis management will occur no matter what the case may be, because this is a natural occurrence, it matters not what one has learned in the meantime that is excusable. No one goes out of their way to survive more than they have to. Everything else is just aesthetics.

§ Never conflate "history" with concurrent reality; it's a surefire way to strike confusion into the mind.

§ All this [talk of "leftists" versus "the right" is hyperbolic. The fin de siècle era was the worst in Europe, because Europe has a history that spans the edges of time itself. America, doesn't. American misapprehends things, openly [especially after the great depression]. Right-left, both will kill, at ends.

§ (To clarify: I'm not saying it's wrong, per se. Just hyperbolic. "Right-wing troops don't kill people?" fucking utterly absurd.)

§ People just imagine they couldn't "kill someone", until they do, but by then it's already too late and it's already been justified in their minds. This is why things are so bad...people people cannot control their instincts. At all levels this creates conflagration.

§ History is past blood guilt, and people should be able to handle what is in a museum- lest there are gatherings happening there & that statuary is literally being used for something nefarious, then it's literally just a piece of bronze someone fetched out of  an arc of history. Stop trying to materialize it, to quantify it, in order to buy it or war for it.

§ In the business sense, liberalization = privatization = globalization = World Bank = deregulation [in lieu of business prospects].

§ Class struggle isn't the issue, as of right now, though [if it ever can be again, or ever was]—it seems racial-groups have more of an on-going struggle, than anything else. The metropolis makes the rural dysfunctional, not the other way around. The Megalomania of the neoliberals—they say things like "we prop up red states monetarily", not realizing their culpability.

§ Privatization is a liberalist ideal, q.e.d.


here is an encapsulation and polemic of modern day political gripes, because there is so much division.

ME. i am attempting to do this....

Through the death of the name as 'being' comes the name as 'sign'; the integument of the narod splits from the ethnos.

yep.

but if you want to have these two "rationalists" agree with you, you must never contend with them, lest they put you on ignore..."rationalists". :lol:

§ People are stupid, despotic, have selective memory & are paranoid about so much, they lose their heads.

§ Always, they try to foist—by conceits & confusions, never making any headway, socially—their problems into the public spectacle & daily docket; in the everlasting student riot.


quite clear to see: but these two, they aren't the students, no, there are the "new academics" of the future, the REAL academics, right guys, hehe, right?

:rolleyes:

§1: Be aware that the world is not run by the hoi polloi, and it would be no different in any goddamn economy. Just look at the population rate of this planet. There is no perfect world where a small group of well connected people will not "leer" over them (the hoi polloi).

§2: Even the Guardians of Plato's Republic (as noted in the work itself) are a purely speculative and impossible fiction, as even they would become as the "leerer" of the top-dogs of the public body. You want answers, it's not "defeating capitalism", because it's been here since the Sun was cooking oil in the bowels of the Earth.

§3: An order where everything is in it's set place is still one in which oil permeates the underwork, and movements needs be made to retrieve it's resource (among other resources, just the same). As an institution, it needs work, undoubtedly [without indecision].

§4: Something people tend to do, especially if they see political underpinnings in motion, is they get tunnel vision. All of these "ideologies" have suffered from it. Neoliberalism. Conservatism. Socialism (Che, Maduro, ect). Communism (Iron Curtain, Mao, ect).

§5: None of these ideologies are without faults. They all fall for the same human plights. Greed and feigned superiority. Whether rich, middle-class, or poor, it's been shown that each of these classes can permit themselves to do comitance to the same things.


the entirety of it is constructed and well,...there are proportions of people [the hoi polloi] which I fear are being pushed to the brink [something they can't help]. People will have to make a choice, somewhere along the line- it may end up between choosing a pro-capitalism but anti-modernity stance [symbol], or a post-capitalist but pro-modernity stance, which means that the symbol will be replaced with the ideal replacement for the symbol, which is the icon. Capitalism will be crowned [again] and communism [thru foist] will continue to belay the trends and invoke the discordant valves of movement for the anchor to settle for it's waves in existence as being-drug qua being in crisis, all whilst they [the factory-laborer, the prole, the farmer, the rural, the folk] poise themselves as figurants for the theater-machine of oscillation [see, nuclear energy], cracks, and steam. This trembling beneath the earth will not satisfy, and surely the multiplicity of the foist unto the society of "centralization" [the modicum of "normality" we invoke for our sanity, in a void], the oversocialization, which Kaczynski called this piffling mass peoples who wish only for pelf and think of nothing but satiety for their whim in desire [the so-called bourgeoisie], or for the uncontrollable factions that they [bourgeois] deplore, succumb to, at their behest [in envy of] the niceties provided them [like an extra ration given soldiers in a raid].

People nag about Hegel & Leibniz's influence on "politics", when they value "logic systems" & such invented by them; which was ultimately developed into the type of mathematics valued so highly today [even the "Hegalian" dialectic was expounded actually by Frege]. The notion of the "Hegelian dialectic' as it is widely know is due to the mimesis of the praxis given by Heinrich Moritz Chalybäus, which actually stemmed from the more "spiritual" [and not "logical"] notion derived from the mathematical notion from Frege [and Fichte and Kant].

^ that's these two...they'll complain about "the academics" 'til the cows come home.

let's dive into some Evolian thought and tie to modern science:

>I read The Metaphysics of War [by Evola] and I was pretty confused by the use of the word action. How does it work?

That was during the Fascist uprising, when he was writing for a magazine, predominantly [for those writings]. He was talking about action has it's own fruit- not the fruits of action, and the fruit in and of itself of action. However, the instance of War is the most tragic of things- and hence Evola was not a posing a determinate to war, and war-goings, but instead was offering a true platform for their existential predicament. This also would also, given the frightful scenario, the warrior to potentially find a transcendent moment in the most dire straights, which could, all things considered, save his life. However, it wouldn't be "him" doing the reacting, you see. It would be "his Being" doing that. That's the point. And also the point would be to find that "place" where the self is "transcendent" into Being. There is active science on this development- although it used in dark ops, mostly, but then again, the most intuitive notions are still being processed and thus are not really in active use, although, they couldn't be, anyway- so most such study is done by would-be ideologues which are funded one way or another to study transcendental meditation in subjects. What is found it that "Gamma" frequencies are found within subjects. Hyper-gamma frequencies can be detected, and are also found in certain cosmic environs. Theta frequencies are closest [found in humans] to the Shumann frequency of the earth. Etc. Look up. Lo, a light, within, turn, meditate.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 04:09 AM)


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26398646 - 12/24/19 05:46 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I would like to report abuse of language, excessive block copy, and writing without reading (doesn't everybody), which is a denial of the essence of language - in its guise of communication.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26398653 - 12/24/19 05:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

they don't. you don't.

whatever...i'm just gonna say: uhhh der, clearly they and i sound....soooorta similar...i'm gonna point it out, even if it's obvious...because you gotta...one just has to do what people will about the quandaries and consequences of silence...from you...from whomever.

PS:
Quote:

which is a denial of the essence of language




the implication here being quite the reverse of the other notions of me being "enraptured" by language.

oh boy...or it could just be that my exaggerative implementations are in an inverse proportionality to their short-form exaggerations, because i like irony, and i also like posting everything that they'll ever talk about in their new found "genius".

but whatever...i'm being pompous. i know the fact that i have already covered their ground doesn't mean anything, and won't change anything. :shrug: and neither will they.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 11:43 AM)


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26398913 - 12/24/19 09:44 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think you relish the trails of fading language moments in your mind, not just the sounds, but the mere awareness that meaning is contained in language, and that language is contained in a block of text, and that a block of text is contained in a blog post under your cursor, and that you could,  if you cared, read that post, and even caring is proof of your intoxicated genius.

mad laughter fills the halls

'tis the season to be jolly


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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26399017 - 12/24/19 11:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

no, i value the conclusions made from such things. because if there was no purpose such as a conclusive meaning or appropriate action, for what people are, essentially, talking about these days, on a daily motivation to keep discussing topics with people, they talk to, mostly, online. i know you don't like that, but it's called "common interests". but the point of the above posts, indubitably, is to to show that what rootcomplex and Loaded Shaman post about, in regards to their "super rationalism", i've readily covered in my findings, already...so...they lambasting me, is stupid. :shrug: because we mostly agree. oh and that their posts are just "long-winded" as me, and they use just as much "big words" *facepalm* as i do...so their complaints about me aren't even well-founded. if you will, that's *why* the diatribe above...because they insist that they've found some new evaluation of things, which, alas, is not so new, and not so revelatory, because i've already covered alot the same ground, and it doesn't a: jive well with most people, and b: is incomplete, and c: involves the use of language to describe things...and not..."actions" or "codes" or "motivations", not any, at least, that doesn't involve the brain...which uses language to think thoughts, either that, or pure emotion.

Quote:


so, you are accusing the other apes of throwing bags of philosophy at you to justify extra poundage of miscellaneous verbiage hewn back at them, primarily, so to speak.




you fight verbal fires with verbal fires. extinguishing with a bucket of water isn't going to stop the verbal conclusion of conflagration, because they don't quit. you know that. and what about "justification"? don't give me that...you are justified in using your language to describer your ideas, freely, right? you don't need justification for that, do you?

the main take away from the actual theory, if it was to be sussed, instead of fought against with misapprehension: is that involuntary interoceptive subconscious action is a form of langauge [or communication, but i contend that these concepts conflate and fuse together, at this point, as in manticism, the direct perception of things, objects in the world.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/24/19 02:16 PM)


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26399026 - 12/24/19 11:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

so, you are accusing the other apes of throwing bags of philosophy at you to justify extra poundage of miscellaneous verbiage hewn back at them, primarily, so to speak.


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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26399322 - 12/24/19 03:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"Modal systems of world-building made from predilections, as opposed to necessary explanatory systems: the world-at-large."

another thing that's pertinent, on-topic, and sorta like what rootcomplex and Loaded Shaman are getting at, in a succinct section of text.

"Ratiocination is the ne plus ultra of any and all examination and theory, sequence, and even trivial notion. All replies on it's abstruse but non-abstract [abstructive] being."

another.

people just don't like my phaneroscopic ponderings. but i do. and it fits in with pretty much all the philosophy of both postmodernism, modernism, classical, ancient and of Tradition, and scientifically [rationalist]. hunger, orientation, time, action, being, etc.

but of course, it is a rhizomatic function, an abstract line, which you all want from me, when, of course, only you can be that line.

look, point being, they put me on ignore for "not being rational", but i am right and they are wrong: the proof is in the simple abduction of reasoning, of ratiocination, rationality: you have conceptual use of ideas thru language: all developed societies and peoples have language [at least rudimentary communication], and this is what helps "install" [if you will] the elements of conceptual ideas which are then built on. so even if the super rationalist wanted the "ground" [being] of his to be entirely without language, he would not have any ability to reach for the stars [again, so to speak] or do anything great. point here is that: hypothetical language [descriptive language of theoretical and hypothetical topology/configuration of subjects, in a field/subfield/interdisciplinary field, of study- which goes beyond merely "topical" forms of "conversation" [prattling] [which rootcomplex said i endorse ["talking for fun", which i never said i "talked for fun", i said "i do these topics for fun", but they utterly confused themselves, apparently] [excuse the nested circumstantial speech, but it's part of my point].

everyone makes the most outlandish assumptions, it's enough to make you want to puke, seriously. then i'm said to be abject [even though putting someone on ignore is abject, because they don't even know you can't read their fucking posts when you take the time to respond to them, even though it's not really the issue, the issue is that it's cowardly, and you can't face opposition to your arguments, which is what they are claiming is their bread-and-butter here].

hopefully people can see thru this...tomfoolery.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/25/19 12:43 AM)


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26399704 - 12/24/19 09:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

language is how we cogitate. sorry guys, you need language for everything. oops. sorry, so sorry. go do your great things...or nothing...meditate...just remember to transcend language. [and don't forget compassion.]


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26399868 - 12/25/19 12:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i hope this thread is dead, because what would be the point of me being here [selfish right], especially considering [particularly considering]

a: i'm right
b: they aren't saying anything right in reference to me
c: they will talk amongst themselves but won't take any contention with a grain of salt, and take it personally, even though they're still wrong and they confuse what is ratiocination and what isn't, because they deny that they are using the tools that were laid out before their eyes by men before them, and by men before even them, still, and that those tools are forever needed to progress further, whether by experiential or other means, by "knowledge", "intelligence", "recognition", or "apprehension", or what have you.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/25/19 12:55 AM)


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26400023 - 12/25/19 04:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
language is how we cogitate. sorry guys, you need language for everything. oops. sorry, so sorry. go do your great things...or nothing...meditate...just remember to transcend language. [and don't forget compassion.]



still no clue


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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26400260 - 12/25/19 09:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

that's pretty sad.

anyways, before rootcomplex or LoadedShaman even arrived on these shores, i was postulating the same ratiocination over empiricism arguments they are trying to claim is the idea that "i don't get", which is foolish, considering the explanans to the explanadum, presented in this thread, in all it's largess. i have postulated everything that they are claiming to represent above me, and my "ability" [according to LoadedShaman] to apprehend rationalism [i have, in propositional form, in a sense, "air-tight"].

i don't care if you "can't comprehend" something, you're just...not trying to. you're not even trying to. none of you are. you're all just full of yourselves. :lol:

the only thing there is to evince here is how much like me you all really are...both "in theory", and in your need/wont to prove yourself correct, like right now, coming back with this weak retort, as if it will vindicate you and make me look silly. see? you do the same things.

i'm in the right here. you all can't say you're doing something any "better", more "reserved", "less difficult", "more respectful", et al. none of these ideals can apply. you're all like me...you don't care if you are difficult, to push people to their limits or to prove yourself right and them wrong, this is what you are all doing. you can't deny it. i win. this time. i win. because none of you have outdone me, or yourselves.


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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26400750 - 12/25/19 05:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i think a good way of thinking about it is, like in a computer.

A computer has a cpu, that cpu has all kinds of logic circuits which can be referred to by a standard instruction set.

think of language as an instruction set. The larger the instruction set, the more complex the design of the cpu, however it allows instructions to be done in less cycles, using more advanced instructions making it more time efficient. But due to complex design less power efficient.

However, you can use a smaller instruction set. This makes your CPU design much more simple, and energy efficient. However due to the lack of instructions, the more basic instructions have to be combined to complete the same task as more complex instructions, this uses more cycles though taking more time.

Theoretically, every instruction set boils down to a few major instructions that serve as a basis for every other instruction made possible in larger instruction sets.
These instructions are things like times, divide, add, subtract, allocate, wipe, point, these kinds of things.

The same can be done for language,

more instructions means (more time efficiency, less power efficiency)
less instructions means (less time efficiency, more power efficiency)

lets say power is equivalent to literacy rate (how many people who can use every instruction in the language) because i guess having more speakers will make your language more powerful (amplitude) and more instructions to learn makes a language more difficult to learn for example arabic  or chinese (before education became mainstream).

and time is equivalent to well... time.

all languages boil down to a common set of instructions, common denominator, but i guess its hard to pinpoint what the common denominator when we're still debating over what language actually is.

But still I'm not convinced that language can portray everything.
Like some things when I'm tripping they transcend our dimensional philosophies. Its like we're discussing in 4D philosophy now im trippin on some 8D shit. Ever tried nutmeg?

I get that when on shrooms and acid and whatnot, for me the words just come bubbling up out of god damn nowhere. But each word is only about 78% accurate which is still pretty good, but I think to get 100% accuracy your gonna need an infinite amount of time, and might aswell take an infinite amount of words while I'm at it to bring the time down, even though I just discussed that it can still be achieved with limited words.

its like the line trying to hit the asymptote, you get almost infinitely close but never there never there. unless you let the line graph itself infinitely long,

time is a mountain range, you hiking along it forever and ever

but who knows, google about to do this quantum computing shite. Who knows where we'll end up after that. Maybe we're all gonna be walking around with 5D quantum translators in the afterlife. Who knows. god knows.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26400755 - 12/25/19 05:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

look man if you wanna prove that your right go start a seperate thread, is akira_akuma rational? I think that would be a good one in the philosophy section.

But don't go making others play your game in someone else's thread.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26401002 - 12/25/19 09:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:

you're all just full of yourselves. :lol:




Well, we should all be able to agree on that fact!

I can't decide if I should read this whole thread in it's entirety, so I can better understand what is being discussed, or if I should go take a hot bath. For the moment, I've done a couple of searches to try to understand the meaning of "phaneroscopic" ponderings.


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Re: Language [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26401203 - 12/26/19 05:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

bath, totally rocks!


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: kitten6] * 1
    #26401361 - 12/26/19 09:15 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:

you're all just full of yourselves. :lol:




Well, we should all be able to agree on that fact!

I can't decide if I should read this whole thread in it's entirety, so I can better understand what is being discussed, or if I should go take a hot bath. For the moment, I've done a couple of searches to try to understand the meaning of "phaneroscopic" ponderings.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaneron

"The phaneron (Greek φανερός [phaneros] "visible, manifest") is the subject matter of phenomenology, or of what Charles Sanders Peirce later called phaneroscopy. The term, which was introduced in 1905, is similar to the concept of the "phenomenon" in the way it meant "whatever is present at any time to the mind in any way".

Quote:

kitten6 said:
look man if you wanna prove that your right go start a seperate thread, is akira_akuma rational? I think that would be a good one in the philosophy section.

But don't go making others play your game in someone else's thread.



thread starter doesn't have a problem with it. you all have a problem with someone being invasive instead of pandering arguments to you all, when you all won't even argue back, you just insult. since none of you are being genuine in your opposition against my statements, i opt for for full force invasion of ideas. sorry for the fangs, but without fangs, you'd just run roughshod over me. you agree with me, and you made a big big post...so? aren't you doing what i've done? what else am i doing, that is different than what you are doing? tell me.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/26/19 11:44 AM)


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26401377 - 12/26/19 09:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i think from the looks of things, obviously I haven't been around on shroomery for that long, I don't know what kinda guy you are, I'm not trying to direct any insults at you, because I haven't insulted you and neither has anyone on this thread.

I think you misunderstand, we're not trying to argue with you, we're trying to have a debate/discussion about the limits of language with you.

What are your thoughts on the limits of language? If you have something to contribute we wanna hear it because that's what this thread is all about.


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Language [Re: kitten6]
    #26401489 - 12/26/19 11:18 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kitten6 said:
i think a good way of thinking about it is, like in a computer...



:raisemyglass:
Indeed. Convo boils down to :
https://www.microcontrollertips.com/risc-vs-cisc-architectures-one-better/


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26401527 - 12/26/19 11:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What are your thoughts on the limits of language? If you have something to contribute we wanna hear it because that's what this thread is all about.





i already made my contributions here, they were mostly insulted. but not too harshly, i guess; i don't mean to complain. but alas, i haven't even seen you in this thread, 'til now. i don't think i was trying to come off as harsh to you, if i was, sorry.

PS:


here, this video i made is on my theoretical take about language. rootcomplex put me on ignore simply because he i thought i didn't share his views...i made the video encompassing those views...before he came to them. which is ironic.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 4
    #26401562 - 12/26/19 12:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Clearly, ultimately, the infinite totality of nature cannot be encompassed by anything, including language. Or it wouldn't be infinite, and it wouldn't be one.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26401627 - 12/26/19 01:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"We are" grander than the narrative.
It's written, this is how words can be.
A self explanatory comparative.
An eye which no mirror can see.

If the hammer outgrows the nail.
It need not have ever been.
A pre dialectical prison.
Self driven, flush and clean.

Does the instrument not need the player.
Could it strum itself.
Do yourself a favour.
Know I took this one of the shelf.


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Just a fool on the hill.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26401964 - 12/26/19 06:14 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)



hey all, this page in this book i'm reading explains everything so well, i had to post it. see: my point all along is exemplified here: you can see it in Loaded Shamn, and rootcomplex, but yes, me too- and i'll admit it...but other people like to think this is not something that happens to them, that they are beyond such things: because of the very reasons we have to evince for someone our reasonings.

Quote:

Indeed. Convo boils down to :
https://www.microcontrollertips.com/risc-vs-cisc-architectures-one-better/





it is the architectonic unto the iconic. the will to exist is the will to become, and the icon of living thrives. oh ignorer.


Edited by akira_akuma (12/26/19 06:22 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26402157 - 12/26/19 08:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)


more on the subject

why the 'recalcitrance' of both language and the number, and systems; there is more to suss, but this is essentially in reference to the evolution of nervous systems as an egress from within [water-bourne bodies of radial-sessile and then eventually chordates, the 'enscephalizing' nature of the evolution of the lobster/crab, with eventually the bilateralization (and thusly orthogonally oriented) human body and further encephalization, thru time, of the frontal lobe of the human brain], and without [a "downward stream", the forwarding ingress of the mineral hypogene of earth and the various exchanges [currencies] of nervous energy and planetary bodies [the sun, being of most import]: "the fasciculations" of the "axon" "traces" of a prehistory of a "chronotopic" timeline].


Edited by akira_akuma (12/26/19 09:15 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26406117 - 12/29/19 10:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)



more of what i've been talking about [i like that this latest read is confirming more of my hypothesis].


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26406146 - 12/29/19 11:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Ah Burroughs, one of my favorite people.


"Communication must become total and conscious before we can stop it."

"Language is a virus from outer space."


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26406229 - 12/29/19 11:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i agree with both those things.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #26406509 - 12/29/19 03:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

  • As overspecialization increases, so does arbitrariness. As these codes [of conduct] become more arbitrary [along with the influx of migrations] language and communication becomes more inflected into chaos. As these factors accelerate, arbitrariness increases to up to a zero channel and trivializes [in memetic terms, things "normalize"].

  • As things trivialize, consciousness is revealed to be the driving factor in these communicable forces of "reason" and "mind" which encapsulate our silent thought into a whisper. To remove the caul of the silent thought engenders a reorganizing of forces, nothing more. The caul is ultimately part and parcel of the void, itself.

  • Essentially, the most arbitrary statement or function is what concludes the endeavor. Religion, politics, society, family, survival, all entail an inflection of this chaos, and propound repulsionary schema to iconify either indifference or reversion into change, ultimately within this is a rebound and feedforward negative-feedbak loop into change, and between windows of change and transference of indifference, new memes are refurbished.


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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26407252 - 12/30/19 04:52 AM (4 years, 30 days ago)

I sure you have a lot more arbitrary things to add to this, but are you describing language or your own battle with over arbitration (internal dialog).


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26407464 - 12/30/19 08:44 AM (4 years, 30 days ago)

things don't have to be arbitrary. really that's a decision people make for themselves, you see. but alas, you're still using language to do...anything. so why not limit the arbitration you experience, and just stop talking?

why can't you heed your own whimsical admonitions?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26407558 - 12/30/19 10:11 AM (4 years, 30 days ago)

my language usage is a fair response to my experience, I am not troubled by arbitrariness or arbitration (two very different things) that can happen in my dialogic involvements.

which whimsical admonition did you notice? perhaps it was an illusion.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26407677 - 12/30/19 12:02 PM (4 years, 30 days ago)

arbitration certainly isn't my concern, but things becoming arbitrary is everyone's concern, at least if they plan on not seeing society regress in front of their eyes. but it's already happening, so as a means of explanation, i think it's ok to warn people of what they are getting themselves into when they delve into the minutia of the politics [or philosophy, even,...or science] of the world.

Quote:

which whimsical admonition did you notice? perhaps it was an illusion.




dude, it's your posting style, pretty much.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Language [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26407898 - 12/30/19 02:39 PM (4 years, 30 days ago)

you think my style or character is responsible for the regression of society?


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Offlinegeorge698
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Re: Language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26408944 - 12/31/19 08:34 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:

The greeks and Romans trunk lifted the bulk of their work from prior civilizations that maintained deeper knowledge/understanding.




Yes copy and paste since the beginning of times. It exactly this lazy attitude which makes civilization perish.

From Laziness comes that my kids should have it better.

Why is that bad? Because we are a product of our own experiences mostly bad ones.


Edited by george698 (01/08/20 02:28 PM)


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