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morrowasted
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Why inflammation causes depression 3
#26354629 - 11/30/19 08:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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It has long been known that depressed patients have lower CSF levels of serotonin. More recently, it has been discovered that patients with depression usually have high biomarkers for inflammatory compunds like TNF-a. TNF-a induces an enzyme called IDO, which is part of the kynurenine pathway. The end product of the kynurenine pathway is nicotinamide (which is used throughout the citric acid cycle for ATP production). This is because the reduced oxygen delivery to the cell resulting from inflammation increases cellular energy demand.
The kynurenine pathway is essentially tryptophan -> quinolinic acid -> NAD.
Tryptophan is also used to produce serotonin (and therefore melatonin as well).
The body prioritizes energy production over mood. Essentially, the body uses as much tryptophan as it needs to to keep up with NAD demands and whatever is left over gets used to produce serotonin. Thus, inflammation causes tryptophan to be shunted away from the serotonin pathway.
Edited by morrowasted (11/30/19 10:52 PM)
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26354640 - 11/30/19 09:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then why do antibiotics make depression worse?
Aromatic amino acids like tryptophan cannot be produced by the human body. They can, however, be produced by gut bacteria. Therefore antibiotics reduce tryptophan availability. Pesticides like glyphosate function as antibiotics.
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Dorfnob
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26354653 - 11/30/19 09:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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So I legit have a presentation due the 4th on inflammatory disease wanna whip something up for me? also I think I'm going to go more in depth with symptoms now that you brought up a good link between the two.
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: Dorfnob]
#26354663 - 11/30/19 09:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Dorfnob said: So I legit have a presentation due the 4th on inflammatory disease wanna whip something up for me? also I think I'm going to go more in depth with symptoms now that you brought up a good link between the two.
I have schoolwork of my own. Good luck
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JBaker
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26354672 - 11/30/19 09:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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im on Zoloft for serotonin deficiency, thkning I need dopamine too
-------------------- dark blue balloon, way high up in the sky, and it just can't speed up, being yourself and feeling content is way better than grasping for things that won't ever happen
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cannabinated


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: JBaker]
#26354694 - 11/30/19 09:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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cannabinated


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: cannabinated]
#26354697 - 11/30/19 09:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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whats the deal with nicotinamide riboside eh
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: cannabinated]
#26354738 - 11/30/19 10:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cannabinated said: whats the deal with nicotinamide riboside eh
preliminary studies suggest it may be good for longevity
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: JBaker] 2
#26354751 - 11/30/19 10:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JBaker said: im on Zoloft for serotonin deficiency, thkning I need dopamine too
or maybe, you know, look into the root causes of your problem.
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JBaker
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26354752 - 11/30/19 10:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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nerve pain
-------------------- dark blue balloon, way high up in the sky, and it just can't speed up, being yourself and feeling content is way better than grasping for things that won't ever happen
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: JBaker]
#26354764 - 11/30/19 10:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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no. just... no.
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yeah


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26354765 - 11/30/19 10:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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How conclusive is it that sugar causes inflammation?
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: yeah]
#26354777 - 11/30/19 10:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said: How conclusive is it that sugar causes inflammation?
I'm not sure about the overall effect but within the context of this metabolic pathway, quite the opposite is true, actually. In the same way that inflammation induces TDO to metabolize tryptophan into kyurenine, low blood sugar levels and cortisol induce an enzyme called TDO that does the same thing.
Many people crave carbohydrates as the evening approaches, and it's been speculated that this is because the body needs to make some melatonin. Putting a bunch of sugar in your body slows down the kyurenine pathway so that more tryptophan is available to make melatonin.
there may be other factors that cause sugar to produce inflammatory cytokines but I'm not familiar with them
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cannabinated


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26354794 - 11/30/19 11:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
cannabinated said: whats the deal with nicotinamide riboside eh
preliminary studies suggest it may be good for longevity
coo
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yeah


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26355245 - 12/01/19 09:43 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
yeah said: How conclusive is it that sugar causes inflammation?
I'm not sure about the overall effect but within the context of this metabolic pathway, quite the opposite is true, actually. In the same way that inflammation induces TDO to metabolize tryptophan into kyurenine, low blood sugar levels and cortisol induce an enzyme called TDO that does the same thing.
Many people crave carbohydrates as the evening approaches, and it's been speculated that this is because the body needs to make some melatonin. Putting a bunch of sugar in your body slows down the kyurenine pathway so that more tryptophan is available to make melatonin.
there may be other factors that cause sugar to produce inflammatory cytokines but I'm not familiar with them
Cool, thanks. I eat mad sugar.
CBD - does it toxify the liver? And how does it compare to NSAID's?
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Dorfnob
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: yeah]
#26355443 - 12/01/19 11:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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do you have a link to an article you got your info? I found a study, quite interesting I really like how psychs help battle inflammation and depression
Edited by Dorfnob (12/01/19 04:07 PM)
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FungiMaster
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: Dorfnob]
#26355951 - 12/01/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Depression can be cured with a short stint of cocaine use. It engalrges the serotonin receptors.
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YangSupporter
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: FungiMaster]
#26355986 - 12/01/19 05:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ever since I started with fish oil, tumeric and a few other supplements my depression got noticeably better.
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: YangSupporter]
#26356271 - 12/01/19 09:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
YangSupporter said: Ever since I started with fish oil, tumeric and a few other supplements my depression got noticeably better.
raw turmeric? be careful with the imported bulk spice, a lot of it is intentionally contaminated with a form of lead that makes the orange look brighter and more appealing. I used to use it every day and when I stopped I actually felt better. raw turmeric is too expensive for me to use like that
Quote:
do you have a link to an article you got your info? I found a study, quite interesting I really like how psychs help battle inflammation and depression
This info was pieced together from my textbooks, wikipedia articles, examine.com, etc. You can look up any of the individual facts though, you'll find that it's all true.
Quote:
It has long been known that depressed patients have lower CSF levels of serotonin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6172023
Quote:
More recently, it has been discovered that patients with depression usually have high biomarkers for inflammatory compunds like TNF-a
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2687935/
Quote:
TNF-a induces an enzyme called IDO, which is part of the kynurenine pathway. The end product of the kynurenine pathway is nicotinamide (which is used throughout the citric acid cycle for ATP production).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC305266/
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cannabinated


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26356287 - 12/01/19 09:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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time to grow turmeric
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JBaker
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26356314 - 12/01/19 09:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: no. just... no.
no to what? I don't understand
-------------------- dark blue balloon, way high up in the sky, and it just can't speed up, being yourself and feeling content is way better than grasping for things that won't ever happen
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: cannabinated]
#26357071 - 12/02/19 11:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cannabinated said: time to grow turmeric
Could be lucrative. I definitely wanna start growing my own veggies. I am becoming increasingly skeptical about the safety of commercial pesticides
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: JBaker]
#26357074 - 12/02/19 11:56 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JBaker said:
Quote:
morrowasted said: no. just... no.
no to what? I don't understand
"Nerve pain" is totally unrelated to this topic afaik
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YangSupporter
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26357124 - 12/02/19 12:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said: Ever since I started with fish oil, tumeric and a few other supplements my depression got noticeably better.
raw turmeric? be careful with the imported bulk spice, a lot of it is intentionally contaminated with a form of lead that makes the orange look brighter and more appealing. I used to use it every day and when I stopped I actually felt better. raw turmeric is too expensive for me to use like that
Quote:
do you have a link to an article you got your info? I found a study, quite interesting I really like how psychs help battle inflammation and depression
This info was pieced together from my textbooks, wikipedia articles, examine.com, etc. You can look up any of the individual facts though, you'll find that it's all true.
Quote:
It has long been known that depressed patients have lower CSF levels of serotonin.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6172023
Quote:
More recently, it has been discovered that patients with depression usually have high biomarkers for inflammatory compunds like TNF-a
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2687935/
Quote:
TNF-a induces an enzyme called IDO, which is part of the kynurenine pathway. The end product of the kynurenine pathway is nicotinamide (which is used throughout the citric acid cycle for ATP production).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC305266/
I just use the pill form of Tumeric made in the USA.
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pixelpopper
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: YangSupporter]
#26357130 - 12/02/19 12:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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i've just started making elderberry tea from dried elderberry i get from the local whole foods shop
its pretty good, and its supposed to be one of the best antioxidants & anti-inflammatory plants you can use.. its also very cheap in the bulk dried form
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YangSupporter
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: pixelpopper]
#26357134 - 12/02/19 12:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Try NAC
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feevers


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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: morrowasted]
#26357306 - 12/02/19 02:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
JBaker said:
Quote:
morrowasted said: no. just... no.
no to what? I don't understand
"Nerve pain" is totally unrelated to this topic afaik
I wouldn't say totally, inflammation can certainly cause nerve pain which leads to a much higher likelihood of depression. For myself it was a pinched occipital nerve caused by inflammation and tightness in my neck and lower scalp. Treated the pain by changing my diet and loads of stretching/dry needling, but comes back whenever I drink or eat unhealthy for a few days in a row.
Inflammation is far too much of a buzz word. Inflammation is not always bad, and in many cases is a necessary component to healing, in bringing in blood and nutrients to injured or compromised areas in the body. Some orthopedic rehab techniques purposefully inflame areas to prompt healing responses. So many people mess up their healing by overusing NSAIDs and ice because they think they're doing the right thing by preventing the inflammation. Unrelated to depression, but still relevant in understanding the role of inflammation.
While I mostly agree with what you're saying, a lot of it sounds like chicken and the egg stuff. Sure someone who's depressed has higher inflammatory markers, they're typically sedentary and trying to self-medicate through feel good food with high fats and salts and sugars, and often have higher base cortisol levels, which is actually anti-inflammatory acutely but pro-inflammatory as a chronic dysfunction.
I'm also weary of depression being a strictly or even primarily serotonin imbalance. Give a depressed person an opiate or a GABA drug like benzos or booze, and for many (not all) you'll see a much higher anti-depressant effect in the moment than after months on an SSRI or after loading up on 5-HTP or "tryptophan diets". There's lots of hormones and other factors in the brain, mind, and environment that factor in.
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morrowasted
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Re: Why inflammation causes depression [Re: feevers]
#26357324 - 12/02/19 02:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'm also weary of depression being a strictly or even primarily serotonin imbalance. Give a depressed person an opiate or a GABA drug like benzos or booze, and for many (not all) you'll see a much higher anti-depressant effect in the moment than after months on an SSRI or after loading up on 5-HTP or "tryptophan diets". There's lots of hormones and other factors in the brain, mind, and environment that factor in.
Inducing euphoria through mesolimbic dopamine activation masks the symptoms of depression, it doesn't treat them.
And yeah, it's a chicken/egg argument. You can say that the cause is serotonin imbalance, or you can say that the cause is excess cortisol/glucagon/inflammatory cytokines (which result in serotonin deficiency), or you can say the cause is the dietary and lifestyle habits that result in those levels of cortisol/glucagon/cytokines, or you can say the cause is systemic reasons that result in an inability to escape factors that elevate those things. The further back you go in the chain of causality, the better shot you have at truly "correcting" the problem in a lasting way, but the further you go back in that chain, the more difficult it is to actually implement the treatment. In that last instance you're talking about totally restructing society to treat cases of depression. Which is all well and good, but... good luck.
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