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theRealrollforever
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Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging
#26352611 - 11/29/19 06:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Or is that pretty much unavoidable? I have some good bark I want to try orally.
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Icon
Bloomer


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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever] 1
#26352670 - 11/29/19 07:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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It might be a dose issue, too much MAOI can make you sick. Step 1 of Aya is finding that MAOI sweet spot where you're inhibited enough to feel the DMT but not too much to feel nausea. 3g of syrian rue is recommended. There's no harm in taking the rue on its own a few times to find your personal sweet spot before adding the bark factor.
Extracting the harmalas is better, because concentrated syrian rue is so bitter and nauseating for its own reasons besides the MAOI. You only need about 200mg of harmalas to be inhibited. I never got nauseous again after switching to pure alkaloids.
Even better yet is pure alkaloids from the caapi plant. Not all harmalas are equal, the syrian rue plant is about 50-50 harmine-harmaline. Harmaline is a little stronger, more sedating, and even neurotoxic in high amounts. Caapi is almost entirely Harmine, which is reportedly lighter to trip with and technically safer. Caapi also provides a secret bonus that rue lacks, which is THH. Tetrahydroharmine is another harmala that acts like a weak SSRI instead of an MAOI. THH inhibits the reuptake of serotonin (and thus DMT), further increasing the potential length and effects of caapihuasca.
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coAsTal
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Icon]
#26352692 - 11/29/19 07:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icon said: \
Extracting the harmalas is better, because concentrated syrian rue is so bitter and nauseating for its own reasons besides the MAOI. You only need about 200mg of harmalas to be inhibited. I never got nauseous again after switching to pure alkaloids.
Even better yet is pure alkaloids from the caapi plant. Not all harmalas are equal, the syrian rue plant is about 50-50 harmine-harmaline. Harmaline is a little stronger, more sedating, and even neurotoxic in high amounts. Caapi is almost entirely Harmine, which is reportedly lighter to trip with and technically safer. Caapi also provides a secret bonus that rue lacks, which is THH. Tetrahydroharmine is another harmala that acts like a weak SSRI instead of an MAOI. THH inhibits the reuptake of serotonin (and thus DMT), further increasing the potential length and effects of caapihuasca.
Exactly this.
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Lophophora
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26352801 - 11/29/19 08:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sabnock's lemon balm tea cleans up some of the body sensations, may still purge but that's part of the experience.
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theRealrollforever
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Icon]
#26352886 - 11/29/19 09:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icon said: It might be a dose issue, too much MAOI can make you sick. Step 1 of Aya is finding that MAOI sweet spot where you're inhibited enough to feel the DMT but not too much to feel nausea. 3g of syrian rue is recommended. There's no harm in taking the rue on its own a few times to find your personal sweet spot before adding the bark factor.
Extracting the harmalas is better, because concentrated syrian rue is so bitter and nauseating for its own reasons besides the MAOI. You only need about 200mg of harmalas to be inhibited. I never got nauseous again after switching to pure alkaloids.
Even better yet is pure alkaloids from the caapi plant. Not all harmalas are equal, the syrian rue plant is about 50-50 harmine-harmaline. Harmaline is a little stronger, more sedating, and even neurotoxic in high amounts. Caapi is almost entirely Harmine, which is reportedly lighter to trip with and technically safer. Caapi also provides a secret bonus that rue lacks, which is THH. Tetrahydroharmine is another harmala that acts like a weak SSRI instead of an MAOI. THH inhibits the reuptake of serotonin (and thus DMT), further increasing the potential length and effects of caapihuasca.
Thank u, 5 shrooms
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Icon]
#26354546 - 11/30/19 07:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icon said: Harmaline is a little stronger, more sedating, and even neurotoxic in high amounts.
Non-neurotoxic in dosages used though. Iirc, the study that determined neurotoxicity used 6 grams of pure Harmaline, i think you'll find it's impossible not only to find someone willing to take that much Harmaline, but also be able to keep it down long enough for it all to get absorbed as even 300mgs of pure Harmaline can induce severe purging in most people, if not all people, 6 grams of pure Harmaline wouldn't even have a chance to be absorbed before it's all purged back up thus negating serious overdosage risk and therefore never reaching neurotoxic levels.
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mongo lloyd
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever]
#26354803 - 11/30/19 11:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I never felt any the one time I had it. Just luck I guess.
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ermine
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: mongo lloyd]
#26356934 - 12/02/19 09:56 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's been a while for me but... I always found that using the minimum amount of seeds (for me, 2.5g) and doing a quick brew in slightly acidic water was best. I would just soak finely ground seed in sub-boiling water for about 15-20 mins, with no boiling. Strain well, good luck!
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theRealrollforever
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: ermine]
#26486935 - 02/15/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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So I picked some harmine free base from a highly rated eBay vendor...all five star reviews with references to “visionary, magical, etc” in the reviews. How much would you recommend to start working up to find my sweet spot? And can I just make a tea with my bark? Any safety concerns with MAOIs I really don’t know much. Thank u to any help
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever] 1
#26486990 - 02/15/20 12:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
theRealrollforever said: So I picked some harmine free base from a highly rated eBay vendor...all five star reviews with references to “visionary, magical, etc” in the reviews. How much would you recommend to start working up to find my sweet spot? And can I just make a tea with my bark? Any safety concerns with MAOIs I really don’t know much. Thank u to any help
Ime, 200mgs of pure Harmine seems like a good dose, not a high dose imo, a good start spot. Dosage recommendation from the DMT-Nexus for pure Harmine is 150mgs to 250ms, 300mgs is too much ime. Link to all Harmala/DMT need to know info here - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=39239
No safety concerns with Harmalas when it comes to diet/Tyramine, do need to avoid SSRI anti-depressants, Amphetamines/Meth/MDMA, be careful with things metabolized by CYP1A2 or CYP2D6 (which Harmalas also inhibit, so dosage of CYP1A2 or CYP2D6 substrates can be quite potentiated so like Caffeine for example with CYP1A2, so dosage of said substrate needs to be lowered). Also be careful with things that may increase Noradrenaline, but Dopamine isn't too much of a concern with RIMA's as Dopamine is primarily metabolized by MAO-B, not MAO-A, so like SNRI's (Serotonin/Noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor) or NDRI's (Noradrenaline/Dopamine reuptake inhibitor) should be avoided due to the Noradrenaline increase by MAO-A inhibition. Other than that, pretty safe.
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Cosmic Eye
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26487368 - 02/15/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Interesting stuff. I JUST got some syrian rue seeds. Is it any different from encapsulating the seeds raw or should it boiled down and extracted instead like posted above. Do the seeds induce purging even at 2g or less?
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Cosmic Eye]
#26487387 - 02/15/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cosmic Eye said: Interesting stuff. I JUST got some syrian rue seeds. Is it any different from encapsulating the seeds raw or should it boiled down and extracted instead like posted above. Do the seeds induce purging even at 2g or less?
It is different, the Rue seed contains the full spectrum chemical composition, so it's going to offer a wider range of effects and feelings and even personality/character compared to purified/isolated Harmine or even Harmine/Harmaline extract or even full spectrum Rue extract, i much prefer the Rue seeds over extracts but if i go for extracts, i go for the full spectrum Rue extract over Harmine/Harmaline or pure Harmine, although that's not to say isolated compounds can't be useful in their own right, one could also add extra Harmine to the Rue seed for a boost in Harmine concentration. Raw Rue seed powder capsules can no doubt cause nausea and gut discomfort, but Harmalas in general are purgatives so they will make you vomit if enough is consumed, though Harmine in itself is way more tolerable on the gut compared to Harmaline or Rue, but enough Harmine and you'll still vomit. In terms of Rue seed powder capsules, roasting the whole seeds prior to powdering and encapsulating reduces a lot of the nausea and gut discomfort that seed powder ingestion can cause, so i roast my seeds before grinding now and haven't had any complaints compared to the raw seed. Rue seed powder capsules will not cause nausea or vomiting at 2 grams, or even 3 grams, 4 to 4.5 grams and up though will usually cause nausea and vomiting, at least for me, but i've found even with 4 to 4.5 grams of Rue seed powder, if the seed is roasted prior to grinding, i still haven't had much in the way of nausea or gut discomfort, and no vomiting, adding DMT to the mix though may be a bit of a different story, but roasted Rue seed seems a lot gentler on the gut compared to raw Rue seed. Alternatively one can boil up the Rue seed and evaporate it down for a sticky residue that can be eaten or encapsulated, i hear that can be a good way to go but haven't yet tried it myself.
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Amanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock] 1
#26487408 - 02/15/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What’s your roast tek?
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Cosmic Eye
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock] 1
#26487419 - 02/15/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have not read about roasting them first. I think over time I will experiment with raw vs roasted. Both being ground up and encapsulated. I dont think Im trying to shake hands with Death any time soon but I want the deep dive for longer. Thanks for the info!
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Cosmic Eye] 1
#26487637 - 02/15/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For roasting the whole Rue seed, i usually just put a bunch on a pan, trying to cover the pan but get them evenly spread out so they're not like too much on top of each other, then i put them in an oven pre-heated to 350 degrees f for about 17 to 19 minutes. The time and temp is just what i do so feel free to experiment around with the time and temp, but be careful that you don't burn them. You'll notice when they're roasted because the color will be more of a light brownish color and smells a bit like peanut butter or chocolate or something, compared to the smell and color of raw Rue seed. Then when they're cooled down a bit i grind them up in a coffee grinder bit by bit until it's all powdered, and store the powder in a container or bag, it seems to keep for a good long while, i've had some powder in a bag for like at least 6 months i think and it still seems good. Then i encapsulate them by using a gram scale, putting however many empty capsules i'm gonna fill up on the gram scale, tare it (to account for the weight of the capsules+the lid which is what i put the capsules in so they don't roll away while sitting on the scale), then i take the empty capsules and scoop the Rue seed powder into it, packing the seed powder as tightly as possible using a drill bit, i fill the big part of the capsule up as fully as possible, and then fill the cap up about halfway or a little more than halfway, then cap it, kinda twisting/pushing the capsule together to make sure it's good and closed. I use 00 capsules btw, but 000 capsules may work better for some people, for me 2 00 capsules weighs about 2 to 2.3 grams depending on how tightly i pack it.
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Psion
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26487786 - 02/16/20 12:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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i bet the roasted rue seeds with creamer and sugar taste like coffee :P i always thought the raw stuff tasted and smelled like coffee from the seventh hell, after all.
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Psion]
#26487792 - 02/16/20 01:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lol, maybe, but still would probably taste like bitter crap, just roasted :P
Idk, can't remember if i ever tried roasted Rue seed tea, may one day though.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever] 2
#26487820 - 02/16/20 01:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have done a crude extraction with everclear and crushed/powdered plant matter. Soak for 24 hours and then strain with coffee filters at least 3 times or more, then let evaporate on a flat plate or dish, scrape up and then put in capsules. I have done this with both rue seeds and mhrb. Worked fantastically. It eliminated all nausea for me actually. I had tried the boil and strain brew twice and puked both times. Then I found this recipe of everclear. little to nausea, worked great.
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Amanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock] 1
#26488664 - 02/16/20 04:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I tasted a pinky dip of some tea I made to get an idea of how much salt was in it and good God son, it tasted horrendous. I have a pretty good handle on drinking funky stuff (calea takes first prize) and I gotta say Syrian Rue is up there man. I can see why your stomach would want to veto it.
Have you ever gotten ‘acid gut’ or any sort of acidic reflux kind of thing from drinking it?
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26488839 - 02/16/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: I tasted a pinky dip of some tea I made to get an idea of how much salt was in it and good God son, it tasted horrendous. I have a pretty good handle on drinking funky stuff (calea takes first prize) and I gotta say Syrian Rue is up there man. I can see why your stomach would want to veto it.
Have you ever gotten ‘acid gut’ or any sort of acidic reflux kind of thing from drinking it?
Yes, i've gotten heartburn from consuming Rue seed, iirc even from consuming Rue/Harmala extract as well. Zantac helps a lot, like 75mgs to 150mgs, too much Zantac and digestion will slow down. Limonene/Lemon EO (but primarily Limonene) seems to be really useful for heartburn and counteracts heartburn from the Rue/Harmalas, in fact i'm off Zantac now because of Limonene/Lemon EO, i still occasionally get some heartburn when using Limonene/Lemon EO (moreso Lemon EO whereas Limonene is great for heartburn) but it's rather mild when i do get it. I think probiotics can help too. Just don't take tums on a good dose of Rue/Harmalas, it made me purge every single time that i'd take a tums, for some odd reason.
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Psion
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26489111 - 02/16/20 09:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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sea-bands can help too for some people, as well. i know they helped me out a lot for the most part. still got some nausea with em, but it was greatly reduced, and i'm not one to buy into the whole placebo thing either. but hey... placebo is weird like that. :P nice thing is since they're a mechanical thing you can wear em and use em alongside other options like ginger or meds without worry if you want.
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Amanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26491198 - 02/18/20 05:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown? You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?
Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26491387 - 02/18/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown? You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?
Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.
Yes full spectrum is imo better than pure/isolated compounds. You can let it stay brown, but there's no harm ime in cleaning up the full spectrum extract by redissolving it in warm vinegar water, filter through a coffee filter, and then re-base. Don't need to do a manske extraction on it, just vinegar and washing soda, cleaning it up till it's white and it'll be full spectrum, but the cruder (more brown) it is, imo the more full spectrum it'll be, i've never really consumed the brown extract, just the tan/white powder, but one day i will try the brown powder.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26491476 - 02/18/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Everclear is your friend.
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Primal Glitch
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26491499 - 02/18/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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interesting, do you think the yield from an everclear extraction is similar to one using sodium carbonate & vinegar? sounds like it would be easier so I might give it a try next time, but I wouldn't like to waste any rue. that stuff is hard to come by here.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Primal Glitch] 2
#26491564 - 02/18/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have never extracted with anything else, I have eaten crushed seeds though, but if you soak and strain with a coffee filter 3-5 times, you get all the goods and no seed material, win! The I let it evap for a couple of days and there is an orange/brown sticky goo, scrape up and cap! Easy peesy, lemon squeezy! I have done the MHRB the same way, works excellently!
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sporecap
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26491616 - 02/18/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sabnock said:
Quote:
Amanita86 said: So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown? You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?
Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.
Yes full spectrum is imo better than pure/isolated compounds. You can let it stay brown, but there's no harm ime in cleaning up the full spectrum extract by redissolving it in warm vinegar water, filter through a coffee filter, and then re-base. Don't need to do a manske extraction on it, just vinegar and washing soda, cleaning it up till it's white and it'll be full spectrum, but the cruder (more brown) it is, imo the more full spectrum it'll be, i've never really consumed the brown extract, just the tan/white powder, but one day i will try the brown powder.
I'm not sure, so far I have only used the Harmaline HCl salts extracted from Syrian Rue, and never had any urge to puke or felt nauseous. If you don't want to clean it up to keep 'the full spectrum' I think you should do at least one precipitation of the HCl salt to get rid of some nasty stuff, as detailed on dmt-nexus:
Quote:
In this step one removes the uterotonic and possibly more toxic alkaloids vasicine and vasicinone, dangerous specially for pregnant women because they are abortifacient. Analysis done by Shulgin and others have shown salt-precipitated harmalas to be indeed free of these mentioned alkaloids.
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Harmalas_Extraction_and_Separation_Guide
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: sporecap] 2
#26491660 - 02/18/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, I'm not pregnant, and not a female, soooooooo..... I think there's too much emphasis on having the perfect crystals and extract this, extract that, etc....do a crude "extract" (soak and filter) and see what happens, you got nothing to lose! (to anyone)
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: sporecap]
#26491717 - 02/18/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sporecap said:
Quote:
Sabnock said:
Quote:
Amanita86 said: So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown? You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?
Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.
Yes full spectrum is imo better than pure/isolated compounds. You can let it stay brown, but there's no harm ime in cleaning up the full spectrum extract by redissolving it in warm vinegar water, filter through a coffee filter, and then re-base. Don't need to do a manske extraction on it, just vinegar and washing soda, cleaning it up till it's white and it'll be full spectrum, but the cruder (more brown) it is, imo the more full spectrum it'll be, i've never really consumed the brown extract, just the tan/white powder, but one day i will try the brown powder.
I'm not sure, so far I have only used the Harmaline HCl salts extracted from Syrian Rue, and never had any urge to puke or felt nauseous. If you don't want to clean it up to keep 'the full spectrum' I think you should do at least one precipitation of the HCl salt to get rid of some nasty stuff, as detailed on dmt-nexus:
Quote:
In this step one removes the uterotonic and possibly more toxic alkaloids vasicine and vasicinone, dangerous specially for pregnant women because they are abortifacient. Analysis done by Shulgin and others have shown salt-precipitated harmalas to be indeed free of these mentioned alkaloids.
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Harmalas_Extraction_and_Separation_Guide
The other alkaloids are not "nasties", the only reason to avoid them are if you're pregnant, as they can contribute to causing an abortion but that's in high high high Rue dosages, my gf was pregnant and ended up getting an abortion but beforehand she tried up to 4.5 grams of Rue seed powder encapsulated and it didn't cause abortion, still probably best to avoid if pregnant though but they're certainly not toxic or "nasty", they have benefits that contribute to the medicine like bronchodilation for example, expanding airways and making it easier/better to breathe.
Manske extraction using salt is unnecessary unless you specifically want pure Harmine/Harmaline mix or to separate the Harmine from the Harmaline. I've always done proper extractions using washing soda and vinegar, works fine, even when i've done a Manske extraction i've still used washing soda in the end to convert the HCL into freebase for oral consumption and smoking, whereas HCL salts are purely for oral consumption, so i stick to freebase, and preferably full spectrum.
Edited by Sabnock (02/18/20 01:48 PM)
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Primal Glitch] 1
#26491723 - 02/18/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Primal Glitch said: interesting, do you think the yield from an everclear extraction is similar to one using sodium carbonate & vinegar? sounds like it would be easier so I might give it a try next time, but I wouldn't like to waste any rue. that stuff is hard to come by here.
Using everclear or alcoholic or water extracts is merely a residue/resin/paste, whereas proper extracts are done through either washing soda and vinegar for full spectrum or Manske for purified Harmine/Harmaline extract. Though if going the Manske route, it's still best to first precipitate the full spectrum extract, clean that up, and then proceed to Manske so that alot of the gunk is done away with. The alcoholic or water resins/residues are likely fuller spectrum compared to the freebased full spectrum extract though, you're basically taking a tea (whether using water or alcohol) and evaporating it down to a residue that can be eaten or encapsulated.
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Amanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26492148 - 02/18/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I probably could have been clearer, what I meant was do what it tells you in Tao and leave it at that, so it would be a base, filter, manske, filter... and just leave it at that. At that point it is needles and sparkles under light so fairly pure but still brown and with each filter after that it strips a little brown at a time eventually getting you to tan/white. What I’m wondering is if what’s making up that brown color that gets stripped away with each successive filter, is there any value in that being there vs filtered away in anyone’s opinion... ?
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26492316 - 02/18/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: I probably could have been clearer, what I meant was do what it tells you in Tao and leave it at that, so it would be a base, filter, manske, filter... and just leave it at that. At that point it is needles and sparkles under light so fairly pure but still brown and with each filter after that it strips a little brown at a time eventually getting you to tan/white. What I’m wondering is if what’s making up that brown color that gets stripped away with each successive filter, is there any value in that being there vs filtered away in anyone’s opinion... ?
In my experience/opinion there is value in the goodies that get stripped away, some of what's being stripped away is plant fats/oils and sediment/gunk most likely. I've read the Tao and pretty much followed it for the most part, but basically what i do is boil up 100 grams of whole Rue seed, doing like 4 to 6 separate boils on the seed, strained and then filtering each boil, combining the boils in a big pot, reduce/boil it down to like 400mls, and let it cool to room temp. Then i add a splash of vinegar, about 75mls, and then dissolve like 20 grams of washing soda into 100mls of hot water, and then i add that to the main brew and stir while i'm pouring it in. I then let the brew settle for a little bit so the extract goes to the bottom and then filter it all though a coffee filter, then when i have the crude brown extract, i use 400mls of warm water with 75mls of vinegar, and add the extract to the water/vinegar, stirring it in until it dissolves fully. I think let it settle for a bit, then filer it through a coffee filter which filters out the gunk, then after filtering i re-base it with another 20 grams of washing soda in 100mls of water added/stirred into the extract liquid, which reprecipitates out the extract but purer (still full spectrum), i then repeat the process a couple or so more times until the liquid is a clearish golden yellow and then re-base/reprecipitate out the final extract and let it dry.
If i want to do a manske extraction, i then redissolve the freebased purified full spectrum extract into some more warm vinegar water, and then dilute it and heat it up on the stove and once the water is heated i add and stir in the salt and make sure it dissolves, and then i stick it in the fridge for a few days to precipitate out the Harmala (Harmine/Harmaline) HCL extract, which is then filtered off, then i dissolve it in more warm vinegar water and re-base to precipitate out the pure freebased isolated Harmala extract. I've personally found no reason to re-do the mankse, i only do it one time, and there's a very clear difference between the purified full spectrum extract and the purified isolated Harmala extract, the purified isolated Harmala extract feels very clean, does not at all feel like the full spectrum, and so it seems that the other compounds in Rue are stripped away pretty well with only one manske extraction, at least when i do it the way i've done it. Though if one feels the need to they can just re-do the manske a couple or so more times until they feel they are satisfied, but if they do do that then i'd say try an extraction with one manske, and then do another extraction so that you can do a few manskes, and compare.
Overall, i much prefer the full spectrum, isolated Harmalas don't feel as good to me.
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26492434 - 02/18/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That’s what’s up. How about this, one thing that is of concern to me is all these times we’re heating water really hot and then pouring it into mason jars etc. I always have this worry that the jar is going to break.
I guess thinking about it that would veer a person into going your route of base, base, base instead of manske because when you start getting the liquid super saturated with harmalas you really have to get it hot otherwise they start to precip out and become powder on the bottom of your jar instead of growing as crystals.
Once you get days into the procedure, to have a jar crack and all your work go down the drain could make a man snap. Another thing that bothers me is with the super saturated liquid, is all the alkaloids I feel like I’m losing due to it sticking in the pan, filters, occasional spills here and there. You know what I’m saying? It drives my OCD tendencies crazy. It’s probably minimal but if you ever see a drop that’s dried out they’re pretty well laced and that all adds up. It would be nice to actually have lab glass meant for keeping every drop in the game.
What’s your method for fully drying it all out? I’ve read some people just using a fan and I’ve seen people use heat. I think the melting point for harmala/harmine is something like 650F for one and 450F for the other so in theory an oven with the door open set to 200 should be safe. So maybe fan it for a day and when you feel it’s dry stick it in the oven for 30min or so and then toss it in a jar for storage.
I’ve done all this stuff before but I’m ‘tightening’ up my procedure. There’s a lot of things I figured ‘were the way’ but I’ve found room for where I can fine tune the whole thing. For instance I watched a Gordo Tek video on Youtube and after you get your base harmala as clean as you want it he washes it with ammonia. I don’t remember reading that anywhere a couple years back when I first did this. Apparently it will wash out any salt and whatnot and then you just dry it with some heat and it all comes out of there...
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26492474 - 02/18/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Another thing that bothers me is with the super saturated liquid, is all the alkaloids I feel like I’m losing due to it sticking in the pan, filters, occasional spills here and there. You know what I’m saying? It drives my OCD tendencies crazy.
I know the feeling 
I have an electric oven that's ideal for drying stuff like that, I set it between 100°C and 125°C with the convection setting on
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Primal Glitch]
#26492749 - 02/19/20 01:44 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Is it an in the wall oven or an on the counter toaster type oven? Have you ever over done it and browned or burnt the harmalas at all? If so what temp/timeframe was it at when they burnt?
I have another question..
Is there any defined ratio of water to harmala alk that is considered the prime ratio? Like, too little water and it will restrict crystal growth and too much water and they won’t crash out. Anyone factor up a perfect ratio for prime growth?
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26492767 - 02/19/20 02:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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A decent krstom Habit won’t affect the harmine activity in anyway will it?
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever]
#26492770 - 02/19/20 02:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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You don’t want to mix kratom and maoi according to all the reading I’ve done. Do some google searches to read the reasons why but the popular opinion is to not mix it. There seems to be a lot going on in terms of how kratom works and it’s best to keep it and maoi separate.
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26492804 - 02/19/20 04:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Is it an in the wall oven or an on the counter toaster type oven? Have you ever over done it and browned or burnt the harmalas at all? If so what temp/timeframe was it at when they burnt?
it's on the counter, I never go over 150°C while drying harmalas. it probably can take much more than that but I prefer to be extra careful not to waste any as I said
I can't help you with your other question, the nexus is your friend and you don't even need to post, people in the chat have always been very helpful and friendly
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26493468 - 02/19/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: That’s what’s up. How about this, one thing that is of concern to me is all these times we’re heating water really hot and then pouring it into mason jars etc. I always have this worry that the jar is going to break.
I guess thinking about it that would veer a person into going your route of base, base, base instead of manske because when you start getting the liquid super saturated with harmalas you really have to get it hot otherwise they start to precip out and become powder on the bottom of your jar instead of growing as crystals.
Once you get days into the procedure, to have a jar crack and all your work go down the drain could make a man snap. Another thing that bothers me is with the super saturated liquid, is all the alkaloids I feel like I’m losing due to it sticking in the pan, filters, occasional spills here and there. You know what I’m saying? It drives my OCD tendencies crazy. It’s probably minimal but if you ever see a drop that’s dried out they’re pretty well laced and that all adds up. It would be nice to actually have lab glass meant for keeping every drop in the game.
What’s your method for fully drying it all out? I’ve read some people just using a fan and I’ve seen people use heat. I think the melting point for harmala/harmine is something like 650F for one and 450F for the other so in theory an oven with the door open set to 200 should be safe. So maybe fan it for a day and when you feel it’s dry stick it in the oven for 30min or so and then toss it in a jar for storage.
I’ve done all this stuff before but I’m ‘tightening’ up my procedure. There’s a lot of things I figured ‘were the way’ but I’ve found room for where I can fine tune the whole thing. For instance I watched a Gordo Tek video on Youtube and after you get your base harmala as clean as you want it he washes it with ammonia. I don’t remember reading that anywhere a couple years back when I first did this. Apparently it will wash out any salt and whatnot and then you just dry it with some heat and it all comes out of there...
I've never grown crystals, i always use the freebased powder, it works fine as is, i've never seen the purpose or reason for crystals except for it looking pretty, but the end result is the same, active Harmala content which is ultimately either going to be encapsulated or dissolved in liquid, and consumed, once it's in your system, it won't make one difference if it was in crystal form, powder form, or liquid form.
As for getting the liquid hot, i've never needed it to be hot, i just boil up the seed (that's the hottest it gets really, is boiling), then i let it cool to room temp before adding the base because otherwise it's just going to take awhile for the extract to precipitate out and i like a rather immediate reaction when basing, so i wait until the liquid cools down to room temp before basing. And to dissolve the extract when cleaning it up, i just use warm water with vinegar, or hot but not boiled water, add some vinegar, stir in and dissolve the extract, filter, re-base. Then when doing a manske, i once again dissolve the extract in warm or hot (but not boiling) vinegar water, dilute it, heat it up on the stove until it's boiling, add in and dissolve the salt, then let it cool down for a few minutes and put it in the fridge, i typically keep it in a stainless steel pot when doing the manske and pour it off after the extract is precipitated, or i transfer it to a pyrex measuring cup and then stick it in the fridge. Only time i've ever had a glass break on me was when i was trying to make a full spectrum freebased Chaliponga extract and had it in a spaghetti sauce jar sat on top of a candle warmer with a lid on, the pressure built up as i was shaking it and the bottom of the glass popped off and it went everywhere, but i use washing soda when doing DMT extractions so it wasn't like it was caustic like when using lye, thank god lol.
I also use water to get all the freebased Harmala/Rue extract from the jars/filters/measuring cups, since freebased extract is insoluble in water, it makes it easier to make sure you get everything, and if there's any spills i usually clean it up with a paper towel or wash cloth, then dunk it in acidic water and wring it out a good few times to make sure i get everything, then add it to the main brew before basing. The only leftover extract for me personally has been on the coffee filter, but idk if it's actually extract or if it's just the coloration from the extract on the coffee filter, either way i always save my coffee filters so that i can dunk them in acidic water for contributing to future extractions.
To dry it out, i just base out the final precipitation, filter it out, use fresh water to get all the extract towards the middle of the filter, then once all the water is drained through i twist the edges of the filter together so that it's closed, wrap it in a paper towel, and then squeeze out any remaining moisture with my palms and then open the filter up, sit it on a plate, and let it sit in the open air overnight, next day i break up the extract powder as much as possible and let it continue drying, and once it's fully dry it's good to go, i usually get a weight of about 4 point something grams of full spectrum freebased extract from 100 grams of Rue seed. A fan can work, heating it in the oven or something at a low temp could work, maybe even sitting it in a window sill in direct sunlight may work, i just let it sit out in the open air, works fine.
But yeah when doing a manske extraction, i always end the extraction by filtering off the purified Harmala HCL (Harmaline/Harmine), dissolving it in fresh warm vinegar water, and then re-basing with washing soda, filtering that out and then washing it with cold/room temp water which always does away with any salt contamination.
But yeah i'm sure i could fine tune my process as well, but it works well enough for me so i just stick with it.
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26494356 - 02/20/20 03:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: You don’t want to mix kratom and maoi according to all the reading I’ve done. Do some google searches to read the reasons why but the popular opinion is to not mix it. There seems to be a lot going on in terms of how kratom works and it’s best to keep it and maoi separate.
Thanks broseph Looks like I will have to stop the krat to try oral dmt. Kinda sucks
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever]
#26496411 - 02/21/20 04:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Is it the habit itself or the interaction of the alks in krat not being safe to use during mao inhibition. ? Basically what I’m saying is if I skipped a dose for the day would I be good to go
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever]
#26496587 - 02/21/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What I read was suggesting 3 day break but preferably a week. That’s what other people were saying that sounded smarter than me, I have no idea what the actual facts is..
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26500527 - 02/23/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok cool thanks
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever] 3
#26500825 - 02/24/20 02:30 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I had ~3.5g of baked and ground rue tonight- Sabnock, you're a prince.
No nausea whatsoever (I drank it with a good quantity of 10:1 Lemon Balm extract in addition to ginger tea). Did have quite a bit of gas that made my belly feel too full, and noticed a weird soreness in my left tricep-- maybe some element of vasoconstriction or something.
Markedly different from my harmala crystal extracts. Very...organic. About 4 hours in i re-upped with 225mg of my harmalas. I extinguished every penny of the 170mg of DMT I had remaining tonight and it was a peaceful pleasure..
It was a good night.
I think I'll increase to 4.5g next time.
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: coAsTal]
#26500883 - 02/24/20 03:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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What was your bake tek?
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86] 3
#26500999 - 02/24/20 07:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Based on Sabnock's advice-- I baked in about 1/8" layer on foil in a tray @350 degrees (pre-heated) for 19 minutes. They really do smell like peanut butter with a hint of woody chocolate while they're cooking 
Ended up filling 9 size "0" capsules-- I also took some food enzymes and had an avocado just before, wishing to buffer the risk of stomach discomfort. It definitely worked-- though I did ultimately had loose stools before bed, this also happens with my extracts, so no worse than usual.
I am going to get me some Gas-X to take with it too-- it nearly eliminates gas bloating when I take shrooms, but it never occurred to me until last night to take it when I dose rue
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: coAsTal]
#26504639 - 02/26/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Are there any characteristics you look for to know they’re done or is it just 350 for 19 minutes and that’s that?
How do ya’ll suppose this affects it’s storage life? What would store better the seeds as they are or the seeds after being roasted?
Any guessed on why roasting them cancels a little of the nausea etc out?
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86] 1
#26504654 - 02/26/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Are there any characteristics you look for to know they’re done or is it just 350 for 19 minutes and that’s that?
How do ya’ll suppose this affects it’s storage life? What would store better the seeds as they are or the seeds after being roasted?
Any guessed on why roasting them cancels a little of the nausea etc out?
I'm not sure why roasted seeds seems to be easier on the gut, but it definitely seems to be more tolerable. Yesterday i took 3 grams, and then 5 hours later redosed another 3 grams and while it was strong and i did have to poop, i didn't feel the least bit nauseous and didn't vomit, so whatever it does it seems to really help ime so far.
As for storage, i've had the roasted seed powder in a bag for over a year and is the same powder i've been dosing daily for over a week now and it still seems perfectly fine, so it seems to store well.
As for what to look for when roasting, you can tell by the smell of a peanut butter, chocolate, coffee-like kinda smell ime, as well as the color becoming more of a lighter brown color.
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26504673 - 02/26/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Original thought had me wondering if it was just drying out oils or something like that but I’m wondering if some sort of chemical reaction is taking place, similar to how weed decarboxylation takes place at a certain temp. I don’t know chemistry or the makings of a rue seed well enough to know if that theory holds any weight.
Any way you could snap a pic of a before and after shot of the seeds just so I could have a visual to go on? I have a concern of letting them go to long and not realizing they’re getting scorched until it’s too late.
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26504713 - 02/26/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Original thought had me wondering if it was just drying out oils or something like that but I’m wondering if some sort of chemical reaction is taking place, similar to how weed decarboxylation takes place at a certain temp. I don’t know chemistry or the makings of a rue seed well enough to know if that theory holds any weight.
Any way you could snap a pic of a before and after shot of the seeds just so I could have a visual to go on? I have a concern of letting them go to long and not realizing they’re getting scorched until it’s too late.
If i remember to get a pic in the next few days i'll roast some more seed and get pics to show before and after. As for them getting scorched, yeah gotta keep an eye on em' to make sure they don't burn, but so far about 17 to 19 minutes seems to do fine ime. Yeah i was thinking the same about the oils or some sort of chemical reaction taking place, it'd be interesting to get an analysis done on roasted seed to see if there's a difference in chemical composition.
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26504718 - 02/26/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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What inspired you to roast them?
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Sabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
#26504759 - 02/26/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: What inspired you to roast them?
Well i've had the thought before, but i saw some people mentioning to roast the seeds so i gave it a shot and so far i'm pleased with it, probably won't use raw seed again most likely.
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TheEschatologist
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Registered: 02/22/18
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26505785 - 02/27/20 01:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just want to say: Epic thread! Learning so much. Nice one guys
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
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Loc: hades
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
#26512352 - 03/02/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Roasting some up, these smell pretty good. Now I can’t decide whether to turn the rest into an extract or just roast them. Roasting is a whole lot easier. I can’t try them either because I’m on the krat.
If you could only ever have one which would you take, full spectrum extract or roasted seeds?
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*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


Registered: 01/02/14
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86] 1
#26512471 - 03/02/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Roasting some up, these smell pretty good. Now I can’t decide whether to turn the rest into an extract or just roast them. Roasting is a whole lot easier. I can’t try them either because I’m on the krat.
If you could only ever have one which would you take, full spectrum extract or roasted seeds?
Well, full spectrum extract can be more accurately dosed and is overall lighter than the seed, but personally if i had to stick to one, i'd go for the actual seed. Reason being is that for a couple years i was using extracts, full spectrum mainly, and some with purified Harmalas, and while the full spectrum worked pretty well, i did notice that there were aspects to the experience/medicine that i was missing that i had noticed in my early days when using the seed, and so i started going back to using the seed and realized that i prefer the actual seed over the extracts. Extracts are nice for smoking, compared to the seed, but for oral use, i think roasted seed gets the job done well and it'd be all i'd ever need. In fact, i've been quite surprised lately, i've been taking roasted Rue seed powder in capsules daily at 3 grams for over a week, and even dosed 3 grams twice in one day the other day (5 hours apart), and so far no nausea, no gut discomfort, and no vomiting, last night i had 3 grams and i could definitely tell the reverse tolerance has been built up pretty strongly, i was feeling the bodyload pretty heavily and i felt like i could've thrown up if i wanted to, but i had no nausea or gut discomfort and no real reason to throw up other than it feeling like it was getting to be too strong, but i rode it out and all was well, so, so far i still have yet to purge from it since i've started back taking it again recently. Idk if i'm just getting lucky, or if the roasted seed truly makes that much of a difference vs raw seed, but so far, i gotta say, roasted seed seems to be where it's at.
Edited by Sabnock (03/02/20 09:05 AM)
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