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OfflinePsion
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
    #26489111 - 02/16/20 09:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

sea-bands can help too for some people, as well. i know they helped me out a lot for the most part. still got some nausea with em, but it was greatly reduced, and i'm not one to buy into the whole placebo thing either. but hey... placebo is weird like that. :P nice thing is since they're a mechanical thing you can wear em and use em alongside other options like ginger or meds without worry if you want.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
    #26491198 - 02/18/20 05:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown?  You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?

Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.


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:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26491387 - 02/18/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown?  You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?

Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.




Yes full spectrum is imo better than pure/isolated compounds. You can let it stay brown, but there's no harm ime in cleaning up the full spectrum extract by redissolving it in warm vinegar water, filter through a coffee filter, and then re-base. Don't need to do a manske extraction on it, just vinegar and washing soda, cleaning it up till it's white and it'll be full spectrum, but the cruder (more brown) it is, imo the more full spectrum it'll be, i've never really consumed the brown extract, just the tan/white powder, but one day i will try the brown powder.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
    #26491476 - 02/18/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Everclear is your friend.:grin:


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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26491499 - 02/18/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

interesting, do you think the yield from an everclear extraction is similar to one using sodium carbonate & vinegar?
sounds like it would be easier so I might give it a try next time, but I wouldn't like to waste any rue. that stuff is hard to come by here.


--------------------

                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Primal Glitch] * 2
    #26491564 - 02/18/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I have never extracted with anything else, I have eaten crushed seeds though, but if you soak and strain with a coffee filter 3-5 times, you get all the goods and no seed material, win! The I let it evap for a couple of days and there is an orange/brown sticky goo, scrape up and cap! Easy peesy, lemon squeezy! I have done the MHRB the same way, works excellently!


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Offlinesporecap
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
    #26491616 - 02/18/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
Quote:

Amanita86 said:
So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown?  You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?

Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.




Yes full spectrum is imo better than pure/isolated compounds. You can let it stay brown, but there's no harm ime in cleaning up the full spectrum extract by redissolving it in warm vinegar water, filter through a coffee filter, and then re-base. Don't need to do a manske extraction on it, just vinegar and washing soda, cleaning it up till it's white and it'll be full spectrum, but the cruder (more brown) it is, imo the more full spectrum it'll be, i've never really consumed the brown extract, just the tan/white powder, but one day i will try the brown powder.




I'm not sure, so far I have only used the Harmaline HCl salts extracted from Syrian Rue, and never had any urge to puke or felt nauseous. If you don't want to clean it up to keep 'the full spectrum' I think you should do at least one precipitation of the HCl salt to get rid of some nasty stuff, as detailed on dmt-nexus:
Quote:

In this step one removes the uterotonic and possibly more toxic alkaloids vasicine and vasicinone, dangerous specially for pregnant women because they are abortifacient. Analysis done by Shulgin and others have shown salt-precipitated harmalas to be indeed free of these mentioned alkaloids.



https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Harmalas_Extraction_and_Separation_Guide


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: sporecap] * 2
    #26491660 - 02/18/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I'm not pregnant, and not a female, soooooooo.....:smirk:I think there's too much emphasis on having the perfect crystals and extract this, extract that, etc....do a crude "extract" (soak and filter) and see what happens, you got nothing to lose! (to anyone)


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: sporecap]
    #26491717 - 02/18/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sporecap said:
Quote:

Sabnock said:
Quote:

Amanita86 said:
So all things considered going by what you suggest, if a person were to do an extraction on rue there would be benefit from not cleaning it up to the point of it being tan/white but rather just precip it out, knock the chunks out and then just leave it brown?  You know what I mean, get the solids out but not go much past that?

Sounds like your saying it’s similar to someone extracting a bridgesii and tossing out a lot of things that color the experience for the sake of getting a stripped down purified just mesc.




Yes full spectrum is imo better than pure/isolated compounds. You can let it stay brown, but there's no harm ime in cleaning up the full spectrum extract by redissolving it in warm vinegar water, filter through a coffee filter, and then re-base. Don't need to do a manske extraction on it, just vinegar and washing soda, cleaning it up till it's white and it'll be full spectrum, but the cruder (more brown) it is, imo the more full spectrum it'll be, i've never really consumed the brown extract, just the tan/white powder, but one day i will try the brown powder.




I'm not sure, so far I have only used the Harmaline HCl salts extracted from Syrian Rue, and never had any urge to puke or felt nauseous. If you don't want to clean it up to keep 'the full spectrum' I think you should do at least one precipitation of the HCl salt to get rid of some nasty stuff, as detailed on dmt-nexus:
Quote:

In this step one removes the uterotonic and possibly more toxic alkaloids vasicine and vasicinone, dangerous specially for pregnant women because they are abortifacient. Analysis done by Shulgin and others have shown salt-precipitated harmalas to be indeed free of these mentioned alkaloids.



https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Harmalas_Extraction_and_Separation_Guide




The other alkaloids are not "nasties", the only reason to avoid them are if you're pregnant, as they can contribute to causing an abortion but that's in high high high Rue dosages, my gf was pregnant and ended up getting an abortion but beforehand she tried up to 4.5 grams of Rue seed powder encapsulated and it didn't cause abortion, still probably best to avoid if pregnant though but they're certainly not toxic or "nasty", they have benefits that contribute to the medicine like bronchodilation for example, expanding airways and making it easier/better to breathe.

Manske extraction using salt is unnecessary unless you specifically want pure Harmine/Harmaline mix or to separate the Harmine from the Harmaline. I've always done proper extractions using washing soda and vinegar, works fine, even when i've done a Manske extraction i've still used washing soda in the end to convert the HCL into freebase for oral consumption and smoking, whereas HCL salts are purely for oral consumption, so i stick to freebase, and preferably full spectrum.


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Edited by Sabnock (02/18/20 01:48 PM)


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Primal Glitch] * 1
    #26491723 - 02/18/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Primal Glitch said:
interesting, do you think the yield from an everclear extraction is similar to one using sodium carbonate & vinegar?
sounds like it would be easier so I might give it a try next time, but I wouldn't like to waste any rue. that stuff is hard to come by here.




Using everclear or alcoholic or water extracts is merely a residue/resin/paste, whereas proper extracts are done through either washing soda and vinegar for full spectrum or Manske for purified Harmine/Harmaline extract. Though if going the Manske route, it's still best to first precipitate the full spectrum extract, clean that up, and then proceed to Manske so that alot of the gunk is done away with. The alcoholic or water resins/residues are likely fuller spectrum compared to the freebased full spectrum extract though, you're basically taking a tea (whether using water or alcohol) and evaporating it down to a residue that can be eaten or encapsulated.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
    #26492148 - 02/18/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I probably could have been clearer, what I meant was do what it tells you in Tao and leave it at that, so it would be a base, filter, manske, filter... and just leave it at that.  At that point it is needles and sparkles under light so fairly pure but still brown and with each filter after that it strips a little brown at a time eventually getting you to tan/white.  What I’m wondering is if what’s making up that brown color that gets stripped away with each successive filter, is there any value in that being there vs filtered away in anyone’s opinion... ?


--------------------
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"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26492316 - 02/18/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
I probably could have been clearer, what I meant was do what it tells you in Tao and leave it at that, so it would be a base, filter, manske, filter... and just leave it at that.  At that point it is needles and sparkles under light so fairly pure but still brown and with each filter after that it strips a little brown at a time eventually getting you to tan/white.  What I’m wondering is if what’s making up that brown color that gets stripped away with each successive filter, is there any value in that being there vs filtered away in anyone’s opinion... ?




In my experience/opinion there is value in the goodies that get stripped away, some of what's being stripped away is plant fats/oils and sediment/gunk most likely. I've read the Tao and pretty much followed it for the most part, but basically what i do is boil up 100 grams of whole Rue seed, doing like 4 to 6 separate boils on the seed, strained and then filtering each boil, combining the boils in a big pot, reduce/boil it down to like 400mls, and let it cool to room temp. Then i add a splash of vinegar, about 75mls, and then dissolve like 20 grams of washing soda into 100mls of hot water, and then i add that to the main brew and stir while i'm pouring it in. I then let the brew settle for a little bit so the extract goes to the bottom and then filter it all though a coffee filter, then when i have the crude brown extract, i use 400mls of warm water with 75mls of vinegar, and add the extract to the water/vinegar, stirring it in until it dissolves fully. I think let it settle for a bit, then filer it through a coffee filter which filters out the gunk, then after filtering i re-base it with another 20 grams of washing soda in 100mls of water added/stirred into the extract liquid, which reprecipitates out the extract but purer (still full spectrum), i then repeat the process a couple or so more times until the liquid is a clearish golden yellow and then re-base/reprecipitate out the final extract and let it dry.

If i want to do a manske extraction, i then redissolve the freebased purified full spectrum extract into some more warm vinegar water, and then dilute it and heat it up on the stove and once the water is heated i add and stir in the salt and make sure it dissolves, and then i stick it in the fridge for a few days to precipitate out the Harmala (Harmine/Harmaline) HCL extract, which is then filtered off, then i dissolve it in more warm vinegar water and re-base to precipitate out the pure freebased isolated Harmala extract. I've personally found no reason to re-do the mankse, i only do it one time, and there's a very clear difference between the purified full spectrum extract and the purified isolated Harmala extract, the purified isolated Harmala extract feels very clean, does not at all feel like the full spectrum, and so it seems that the other compounds in Rue are stripped away pretty well with only one manske extraction, at least when i do it the way i've done it. Though if one feels the need to they can just re-do the manske a couple or so more times until they feel they are satisfied, but if they do do that then i'd say try an extraction with one manske, and then do another extraction so that you can do a few manskes, and compare.

Overall, i much prefer the full spectrum, isolated Harmalas don't feel as good to me.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Sabnock]
    #26492434 - 02/18/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

That’s what’s up.  How about this, one thing that is of concern to me is all these times we’re heating water really hot and then pouring it into mason jars etc.  I always have this worry that the jar is going to break.

I guess thinking about it that would veer a person into going your route of base, base, base instead of manske because when you start getting the liquid super saturated with harmalas you really have to get it hot otherwise they start to precip out and become powder on the bottom of your jar instead of growing as crystals. 

Once you get days into the procedure, to have a jar crack and all your work go down the drain could make a man snap.  Another thing that bothers me is with the super saturated liquid, is all the alkaloids I feel like I’m losing due to it sticking in the pan, filters, occasional spills here and there.  You know what I’m saying?  It drives my OCD tendencies crazy.  It’s probably minimal but if you ever see a drop that’s dried out they’re pretty well laced and that all adds up.  It would be nice to actually have lab glass meant for keeping every drop in the game.

What’s your method for fully drying it all out?  I’ve read some people just using a fan and I’ve seen people use heat.  I think the melting point for harmala/harmine is something like 650F for one and 450F for the other so in theory an oven with the door open set to 200 should be safe.  So maybe fan it for a day and when you feel it’s dry stick it in the oven for 30min or so and then toss it in a jar for storage.

I’ve done all this stuff before but I’m ‘tightening’ up my procedure.  There’s a lot of things I figured ‘were the way’ but I’ve found room for where I can fine tune the whole thing.  For instance I watched a Gordo Tek video on Youtube and after you get your base harmala as clean as you want it he washes it with ammonia.  I don’t remember reading that anywhere a couple years back when I first did this.  Apparently it will wash out any salt and whatnot and then you just dry it with some heat and it all comes out of there...:shrug:


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26492474 - 02/18/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
Another thing that bothers me is with the super saturated liquid, is all the alkaloids I feel like I’m losing due to it sticking in the pan, filters, occasional spills here and there.  You know what I’m saying?  It drives my OCD tendencies crazy.



I know the feeling :loldongs:

I have an electric oven that's ideal for drying stuff like that, I set it between 100°C and 125°C with the convection setting on


--------------------

                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Primal Glitch]
    #26492749 - 02/19/20 01:44 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Is it an in the wall oven or an on the counter toaster type oven?  Have you ever over done it and browned or burnt the harmalas at all?  If so what temp/timeframe was it at when they burnt?

I have another question..:nerd:

Is there any defined ratio of water to harmala alk that is considered the prime ratio?  Like, too little water and it will restrict crystal growth and too much water and they won’t crash out.  Anyone factor up a perfect ratio for prime growth?


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26492767 - 02/19/20 02:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A decent krstom
Habit won’t affect the harmine activity in anyway will it?


--------------------


sunshine said:
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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #26492770 - 02/19/20 02:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You don’t want to mix kratom and maoi according to all the reading I’ve done.  Do some google searches to read the reasons why but the popular opinion is to not mix it.  There seems to be a lot going on in terms of how kratom works and it’s best to keep it and maoi separate.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26492804 - 02/19/20 04:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
Is it an in the wall oven or an on the counter toaster type oven?  Have you ever over done it and browned or burnt the harmalas at all?  If so what temp/timeframe was it at when they burnt?




it's on the counter, I never go over 150°C while drying harmalas. it probably can take much more than that but I prefer to be extra careful not to waste any as I said

I can't help you with your other question, the nexus is your friend :wink: and you don't even need to post, people in the chat have always been very helpful and friendly


--------------------

                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26493468 - 02/19/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
That’s what’s up.  How about this, one thing that is of concern to me is all these times we’re heating water really hot and then pouring it into mason jars etc.  I always have this worry that the jar is going to break.

I guess thinking about it that would veer a person into going your route of base, base, base instead of manske because when you start getting the liquid super saturated with harmalas you really have to get it hot otherwise they start to precip out and become powder on the bottom of your jar instead of growing as crystals. 

Once you get days into the procedure, to have a jar crack and all your work go down the drain could make a man snap.  Another thing that bothers me is with the super saturated liquid, is all the alkaloids I feel like I’m losing due to it sticking in the pan, filters, occasional spills here and there.  You know what I’m saying?  It drives my OCD tendencies crazy.  It’s probably minimal but if you ever see a drop that’s dried out they’re pretty well laced and that all adds up.  It would be nice to actually have lab glass meant for keeping every drop in the game.

What’s your method for fully drying it all out?  I’ve read some people just using a fan and I’ve seen people use heat.  I think the melting point for harmala/harmine is something like 650F for one and 450F for the other so in theory an oven with the door open set to 200 should be safe.  So maybe fan it for a day and when you feel it’s dry stick it in the oven for 30min or so and then toss it in a jar for storage.

I’ve done all this stuff before but I’m ‘tightening’ up my procedure.  There’s a lot of things I figured ‘were the way’ but I’ve found room for where I can fine tune the whole thing.  For instance I watched a Gordo Tek video on Youtube and after you get your base harmala as clean as you want it he washes it with ammonia.  I don’t remember reading that anywhere a couple years back when I first did this.  Apparently it will wash out any salt and whatnot and then you just dry it with some heat and it all comes out of there...:shrug:




I've never grown crystals, i always use the freebased powder, it works fine as is, i've never seen the purpose or reason for crystals except for it looking pretty, but the end result is the same, active Harmala content which is ultimately either going to be encapsulated or dissolved in liquid, and consumed, once it's in your system, it won't make one difference if it was in crystal form, powder form, or liquid form.

As for getting the liquid hot, i've never needed it to be hot, i just boil up the seed (that's the hottest it gets really, is boiling), then i let it cool to room temp before adding the base because otherwise it's just going to take awhile for the extract to precipitate out and i like a rather immediate reaction when basing, so i wait until the liquid cools down to room temp before basing. And to dissolve the extract when cleaning it up, i just use warm water with vinegar, or hot but not boiled water, add some vinegar, stir in and dissolve the extract, filter, re-base. Then when doing a manske, i once again dissolve the extract in warm or hot (but not boiling) vinegar water, dilute it, heat it up on the stove until it's boiling, add in and dissolve the salt, then let it cool down for a few minutes and put it in the fridge, i typically keep it in a stainless steel pot when doing the manske and pour it off after the extract is precipitated, or i transfer it to a pyrex measuring cup and then stick it in the fridge. Only time i've ever had a glass break on me was when i was trying to make a full spectrum freebased Chaliponga extract and had it in a spaghetti sauce jar sat on top of a candle warmer with a lid on, the pressure built up as i was shaking it and the bottom of the glass popped off and it went everywhere, but i use washing soda when doing DMT extractions so it wasn't like it was caustic like when using lye, thank god lol.

I also use water to get all the freebased Harmala/Rue extract from the jars/filters/measuring cups, since freebased extract is insoluble in water, it makes it easier to make sure you get everything, and if there's any spills i usually clean it up with a paper towel or wash cloth, then dunk it in acidic water and wring it out a good few times to make sure i get everything, then add it to the main brew before basing. The only leftover extract for me personally has been on the coffee filter, but idk if it's actually extract or if it's just the coloration from the extract on the coffee filter, either way i always save my coffee filters so that i can dunk them in acidic water for contributing to future extractions.

To dry it out, i just base out the final precipitation, filter it out, use fresh water to get all the extract towards the middle of the filter, then once all the water is drained through i twist the edges of the filter together so that it's closed, wrap it in a paper towel, and then squeeze out any remaining moisture with my palms and then open the filter up, sit it on a plate, and let it sit in the open air overnight, next day i break up the extract powder as much as possible and let it continue drying, and once it's fully dry it's good to go, i usually get a weight of about 4 point something grams of full spectrum freebased extract from 100 grams of Rue seed. A fan can work, heating it in the oven or something at a low temp could work, maybe even sitting it in a window sill in direct sunlight may work, i just let it sit out in the open air, works fine.

But yeah when doing a manske extraction, i always end the extraction by filtering off the purified Harmala HCL (Harmaline/Harmine), dissolving it in fresh warm vinegar water, and then re-basing with washing soda, filtering that out and then washing it with cold/room temp water which always does away with any salt contamination.

But yeah i'm sure i could fine tune my process as well, but it works well enough for me so i just stick with it.


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Re: Is there any way to take Syrian rue / harmalas and NOT get nausea/purging [Re: Amanita86]
    #26494356 - 02/20/20 03:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
You don’t want to mix kratom and maoi according to all the reading I’ve done.  Do some google searches to read the reasons why but the popular opinion is to not mix it.  There seems to be a lot going on in terms of how kratom works and it’s best to keep it and maoi separate.



Thanks broseph
Looks like I will have to stop the krat to try oral dmt.  Kinda sucks


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sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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