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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Registered: 04/28/19
Posts: 1,696
American jobs are getting worse * 1
    #26350445 - 11/28/19 11:23 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

"The history of private-sector employment in the U.S. over the past three decades is one of overall degradation in the ability of many American jobs to support households — even those with multiple jobholders," they wrote.

The group wants to popularize a new economic metric, called the*Job Quality Index, that goes beyond the usual labor market barometers, which tend to focus on the quantity of employment. To be sure, there has always been plenty of jobs that don't pay well. But, as the index's creators found when crafting their measurement, there is now a growing number of low-paying jobs relative to employment with above-average pay.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-jobs-are-getting-worse-according-to-a-new-economic-measure/


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Offlinesusurrador
Psychedelic Cowboy


Registered: 03/31/19
Posts: 1,432
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter] * 1
    #26350487 - 11/28/19 12:00 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So many terrible jobs out there. Too much for too little. As big businesses become relentlessly more efficient and employ more and more technology - the gap between the laborers and the cheese grows wider and wider.

Unfortunate for those of us caught in the middle of it all. I have hopes that having access to the internet and open minds that more and more people will wake up and realize that you don't have to 'get a job'. You can make a job. No glass ceiling when you are building your own ladder as you go as opposed to climbing one offered to you.

IMO, be a farmer.

:jesusmagic:


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"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: susurrador] * 2
    #26350501 - 11/28/19 12:08 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Finally something we can all agree on. American jobs are getting worse.

On a related topic, I trained on robotic sorters at Amazon for a couple days recently and wasn't too impressed. It seemed the level of human support required negated the expected productivity gains.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26350507 - 11/28/19 12:12 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Once the bugs get worked out automation is really going to screw the working class.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter] * 4
    #26350510 - 11/28/19 12:12 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

"We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living."  --Buckminster Fuller




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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26350512 - 11/28/19 12:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Excellent quote and I agree


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26350516 - 11/28/19 12:18 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Finally something we can all agree on. American jobs are getting worse.

On a related topic, I trained on robotic sorters at Amazon for a couple days recently and wasn't too impressed. It seemed the level of human support required negated the expected productivity gains.




Initially, most technologies are pretty meh. As they incrementally improve over time though, the human labor hours required to maintain those technologies will decrease making jobs suck just a little more while paying a little less.

What if all the citizens of the world cried out to be plugged into the Matrix in the first place because jobs just sucked that bad.

:peterkillself:


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"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter] * 1
    #26350631 - 11/28/19 01:51 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
"The history of private-sector employment in the U.S. over the past three decades is one of overall degradation in the ability of many American jobs to support households — even those with multiple jobholders".

There has always been plenty of jobs that don't pay well. But, there is now a growing number of low-paying jobs relative to employment with above-average pay.



Since there are still plenty of jobs, I say it's time to raise the real minimum wage at least to where it used to be in 1968:



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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 4
    #26350645 - 11/28/19 02:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think UBI would be superior to a minimum wage increase however I wouldn't oppose it.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26350707 - 11/28/19 02:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I am for a negative income tax as well. When the robot hives hit real productivity, I hope they are taxed as much, or more than us humans.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinedreamachine


Registered: 11/17/19
Posts: 663
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26350742 - 11/28/19 03:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

While I do support UBI, and I do like the idea of workers having increased wages, I'm afraid UBI might just lead to inflation, which in the end will result in rising prices on almost everything which in a sense will almost neutralize the positive effects of UBI (though perhaps not, there still more money in the poors' pockets is better than no money) And increasing minimum wage may very likely result in increased speed of automation replacing workers as well as having non-corporate businesses being force to close down and or reducing the hours/employees that can have....

Sadly I think the only thing that will solve our problems is a spiritual revolution. If the rich and elite don't change their evil ways it wont matter much whatever we do to help the poor... That said I still 100% UBI as an experiment, who knows I think it could help a lot of people; including myself.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Posts: 1,696
Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26350745 - 11/28/19 03:20 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
While I do support UBI, and I do like the idea of workers having increased wages, I'm afraid UBI might just lead to inflation, which in the end will result in rising prices on almost everything which in a sense will almost neutralize the positive effects of UBI (though perhaps not, there still more money in the poors' pockets is better than no money) And increasing minimum wage may very likely result in increased speed of automation replacing workers as well as having non-corporate businesses being force to close down and or reducing the hours/employees that can have....

Sadly I think the only thing that will solve our problems is a spiritual revolution. If the rich and elite don't change their evil ways it wont matter much whatever we do to help the poor... That said I still 100% UBI as an experiment, who knows I think it could help a lot of people; including myself.



UBI won't lead to inflation https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-income-just-cause-massive-inflation-fe71d69f15e7


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Offlinedreamachine


Registered: 11/17/19
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26350748 - 11/28/19 03:22 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I hope you're right, but if I was McDonald's and I was evil and just cared about money and I found out everyone got +$1K/mo I would change the price of the mcdouble from $2 to $3 or maybe even $4. And that's just one example...


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine] * 1
    #26350749 - 11/28/19 03:23 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
I hope you're right, but if I was McDonald's and I was evil and just cared about money and I found out everyone got +$1K/mo I would change the price of the mcdouble from $2 to $3 or maybe even $4. And that's just one example...



Read the article i posted


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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Offlinedreamachine


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26350752 - 11/28/19 03:24 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It's too much, wanna give me a summary? But what do you think about what I said when it comes to McDonalds? You don't think businesses would raise prices cuz they knew they could and that people would be able to afford the increase?


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26350757 - 11/28/19 03:26 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
It's too much



I mean it answers your question...


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Offlinedreamachine


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26350767 - 11/28/19 03:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure it gives a lot of technical information about how it might not effect inflation (technically) but from a strictly business perspective, if corporations know people have more money, naturally they raise their prices no?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26350769 - 11/28/19 03:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Its possible that UBI could cause inflation(cost-push), but it would be negligible compared to others, that do.....like reducing interest rates (demand pull). Funny, you never hear pundits bitching about inflation when rates get cut.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (11/28/19 03:35 PM)


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Offlinedreamachine


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26350773 - 11/28/19 03:37 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I hear you. I doubt it would be as insane of a hyper-inflation as some might claim, but bet money if UBI is passed mcdonalds is gonna add $1 to all their menu items. :lol:


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26350779 - 11/28/19 03:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
I'm sure it gives a lot of technical information about how it might not effect inflation (technically) but from a strictly business perspective, if corporations know people have more money, naturally they raise their prices no?



When  Christmas comes around companies put on sales. A modest UBI would do little to influence price decisions.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26350830 - 11/28/19 04:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Its possible that UBI could cause inflation(cost-push), but it would be negligible compared to others, that do.....like reducing interest rates (demand pull). Funny, you never hear pundits bitching about inflation when rates get cut.



Interest rates are used primarily to control inflation. Inflation is usually in control if you are lowering rates.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFungiMaster
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: koods]
    #26350988 - 11/28/19 06:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Well inflation is real. Not sure th job market is worse really.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: koods]
    #26351086 - 11/28/19 08:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I agree:thumbup:, but there seems to be a stigma that a negative income tax would cause inflation,....
That's just like every governement program, it is socialism dude.....just like that type of stigma.
Reducing rates create more inflation....definitive proof. Just got 3.74fixed 30y  refi.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (11/28/19 08:08 PM)


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Offlineliving_failure
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26351254 - 11/28/19 11:08 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Of course american jobs are getting worse, and european ones too. Hindi and south american are getting better. It is called globalization.

Just choose a job and compare your productivity and salary with a chinnese guy. If you earn more or he works more, you are not competitive enough and should be unemployed.

I work with .Net products, there are a lot of movement of software factories being killed and revived in India


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Offlinedreamachine


Registered: 11/17/19
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26352128 - 11/29/19 02:07 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
I'm sure it gives a lot of technical information about how it might not effect inflation (technically) but from a strictly business perspective, if corporations know people have more money, naturally they raise their prices no?



When  Christmas comes around companies put on sales. A modest UBI would do little to influence price decisions.



we agree on a lot; but this one we're gonna have to agree to disagree; that said i support UBI over no UBI; it would help a lot of people; even if it might have adverse side-effects as well


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26352132 - 11/29/19 02:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
I'm sure it gives a lot of technical information about how it might not effect inflation (technically) but from a strictly business perspective, if corporations know people have more money, naturally they raise their prices no?



When  Christmas comes around companies put on sales. A modest UBI would do little to influence price decisions.



we agree on a lot; but this one we're gonna have to agree to disagree; that said i support UBI over no UBI; it would help a lot of people; even if it might have adverse side-effects as well



If you would just read the article I posted it debunks your fears about inflation. Since UBI is being funded with no new money printing there would be no inflation.


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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Offlinedreamachine


Registered: 11/17/19
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26352146 - 11/29/19 02:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

See I'm not really talking about inflation though. I'm more referring to capitalistic business practices. I know you like Yang a lot and support his ideas, but you gotta look at it from all sides. If businesses know people have more money, a lot of them will increase the prices of their products simply because they know their customers can afford it.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine] * 1
    #26352163 - 11/29/19 02:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
See I'm not really talking about inflation though. I'm more referring to capitalistic business practices. I know you like Yang a lot and support his ideas, but you gotta look at it from all sides. If businesses know people have more money, a lot of them will increase the prices of their products simply because they know their customers can afford it.



Yea I get that you think that but it just isn't true.


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Offlinedreamachine


Registered: 11/17/19
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26352179 - 11/29/19 02:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Okay bro... Here's the last thing I'll say on this. If you're a drug dealer, and you're trying to make money, and you find out everyone in the hood just got $1k+ a month you're going to slowly increase your price per gram until customers complain they can't afford it, or you notice a dip in sales. guarantee

but maybe i'm wrong; all i know is i got family that use to sell used cars, and i'm almost 100% certain that if they new everyone had an extra $1k in their pockets they would sell their cars for more money cuz they new those people could afford the extra payment each month...


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26352188 - 11/29/19 02:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Why on Earth would you compare selling cars to selling drugs?

There's also a big risk of employers using universal basic income as an excuse to never raise wages.  A universal basic income might actually enable even more flagrant exploitation of workers if the impetus ends up being more or less to mollify them and pad out some contrived metrics.  The Finns didn't experiment with universal basic income because it fit into some principle of social pseudoscience.  They did it because they actually cared about the people who they lived with.  Americans treat each other like shit compared to most other people.  American culture is also pretty hostile to labor movements and ideas like workers' rights, whereas other countries that might do the same thing are already geared to prevent employers from treating their workers like a commodity.


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Offlinedreamachine


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos]
    #26352193 - 11/29/19 02:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

sales is sales my bro; i use to sell vacuums door to door and music cds too. lmao


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos] * 1
    #26352279 - 11/29/19 03:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:


There's also a big risk of employers using universal basic income as an excuse to never raise wages.  A universal basic income might actually enable even more flagrant exploitation of workers




Actually UBI allows workers to walk away from exploitative jobs. If the workers want to unionize UBI is a built in strike fund. I think UBI would force employers to treat workers better since everyone now has an income floor.


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26352318 - 11/29/19 04:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

UBI doesn't have any inherent consequences and more or less the same idea has had exactly that effect (among other things).  UBI for the sake of preserving the society that Americans have right now won't change the society that we have.  There aren't any natural economic forces that will create a better society, if only we implement some disembodied principles the right way.


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Offlinedreamachine


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos]
    #26352321 - 11/29/19 04:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

All and all I hope some form of UBI get's implemented. Something tells me it will have to be implemented in the coming years as automation continues to replace human workers.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos] * 1
    #26352333 - 11/29/19 04:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
UBI doesn't have any inherent consequences and more or less the same idea has had exactly that effect (among other things).  UBI for the sake of preserving the society that Americans have right now won't change the society that we have.  There aren't any natural economic forces that will create a better society, if only we implement some disembodied principles the right way.



This is a good point but I think UBI is a step in the right direction. It certainly is not a panacea for all of societies problems but I do think that if every citizen was guaranteed a UBI we would have a better society.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26352411 - 11/29/19 04:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
I do think that if every citizen was guaranteed a UBI we would have a better society.



There would be a UBI in a better society.  I'm not saying that it shouldn't be tried, but it's not a mechanism of any real change in and of itself (nor is it by proxy).  A UBI can fail to make things better and can make them worse if social factors allow it to.  It might not be a big, huge problem in societies where some sense of community and neighborhood is valued (like in Finland), but Americans hate their neighbors and basically live by values of an autarchist cult of markets.


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Offlinedreamachine


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos]
    #26352414 - 11/29/19 04:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Not all Americans hate their neighbors. However the psy-op campaign of "dont talk to strangers" has succeeded in many many places; especially high population density areas I think. There are places in America where people are friendly to each other. Here in Hawaii if you wave/shaka at a stranger 9/10 they return the favor.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26352421 - 11/29/19 04:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Hawaii is pretty typical of volcanic, tropical archipelagos of the United States.  :deal:


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Invisiblesh4d0ws
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine] * 1
    #26352426 - 11/29/19 04:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmm

336?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter] * 1
    #26352606 - 11/29/19 06:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
See I'm not really talking about inflation though. I'm more referring to capitalistic business practices. I know you like Yang a lot and support his ideas, but you gotta look at it from all sides. If businesses know people have more money, a lot of them will increase the prices of their products simply because they know their customers can afford it.



Yea I get that you think that but it just isn't true.




Got a source for any of that, or is this more "UBI FIXES EVERYTHING" bullshit?

Because ths science says all it does is make people marginally happier.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos]
    #26352608 - 11/29/19 06:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

YangSupporter said:
I do think that if every citizen was guaranteed a UBI we would have a better society.



There would be a UBI in a better society.  I'm not saying that it shouldn't be tried, but it's not a mechanism of any real change in and of itself (nor is it by proxy).  A UBI can fail to make things better and can make them worse if social factors allow it to.  It might not be a big, huge problem in societies where some sense of community and neighborhood is valued (like in Finland), but Americans hate their neighbors and basically live by values of an autarchist cult of markets.




I started wearing my cowboy hat and inadvertently discovered the secret cowboy hat society.  Everywhere I go now, if I'm in my pick-up with my hat, other dudes in pick-ups with hats will wave to me as though we were old chums as they pass by.
No hat? No wave.  Super weird, but kinda cool i guess.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26352665 - 11/29/19 07:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

That's a Western hat, ballsalsa.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26353206 - 11/30/19 06:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
Okay bro... Here's the last thing I'll say on this. If you're a drug dealer, and you're trying to make money, and you find out everyone in the hood just got $1k+ a month you're going to slowly increase your price per gram until customers complain they can't afford it, or you notice a dip in sales. guarantee

but maybe i'm wrong; all i know is i got family that use to sell used cars, and i'm almost 100% certain that if they new everyone had an extra $1k in their pockets they would sell their cars for more money cuz they new those people could afford the extra payment each month...



The black market is considered the most stable market in the world because prices are not subject to corrupt rules, regulations but rather supply, demand and the quality of the product. Only weed has gone up in price due to the increase of quality over the last 25 years while other drugs have stayed at the same price point despite what the regulated economy does. :hatsoff:


--------------------
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: dreamachine]
    #26353296 - 11/30/19 07:39 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dreamachine said:
Okay bro... Here's the last thing I'll say on this. If you're a drug dealer, and you're trying to make money, and you find out everyone in the hood just got $1k+ a month you're going to slowly increase your price per gram until customers complain they can't afford it, or you notice a dip in sales. guarantee

but maybe i'm wrong; all i know is i got family that use to sell used cars, and i'm almost 100% certain that if they new everyone had an extra $1k in their pockets they would sell their cars for more money cuz they new those people could afford the extra payment each month...




In your example, all it takes is for a rival to not raise prices.  So if someone can make the level of profit they need by selling Product X at $10, and their competitor thinks "Everyone has more cash, I'll sell it for $11", the competitor will find sales are down.

Companies will charge as much as they can, but competition keeps a check on it.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Guy1980]
    #26353318 - 11/30/19 07:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Guy1980 said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
Okay bro... Here's the last thing I'll say on this. If you're a drug dealer, and you're trying to make money, and you find out everyone in the hood just got $1k+ a month you're going to slowly increase your price per gram until customers complain they can't afford it, or you notice a dip in sales. guarantee

but maybe i'm wrong; all i know is i got family that use to sell used cars, and i'm almost 100% certain that if they new everyone had an extra $1k in their pockets they would sell their cars for more money cuz they new those people could afford the extra payment each month...




In your example, all it takes is for a rival to not raise prices.  So if someone can make the level of profit they need by selling Product X at $10, and their competitor thinks "Everyone has more cash, I'll sell it for $11", the competitor will find sales are down.

Companies will charge as much as they can, but competition keeps a check on it.



Exactly same principle applies. I also provided a source that goes into more depth on why UBI wouldn't cause inflation but Dreamachine refused to read it :shrug:


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26353354 - 11/30/19 08:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
See I'm not really talking about inflation though. I'm more referring to capitalistic business practices. I know you like Yang a lot and support his ideas, but you gotta look at it from all sides. If businesses know people have more money, a lot of them will increase the prices of their products simply because they know their customers can afford it.



Yea I get that you think that but it just isn't true.




Got a source for any of that, or is this more "UBI FIXES EVERYTHING" bullshit?

Because ths science says all it does is make people marginally happier.




UBI improves cognitive function by reducing stress.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976.abstract

Namibian UBI Experiment reduced school drop out rates improved health and reduced crime
https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/publications/archive/policy_innovations/briefings/000163

Canadian UBI Experiment in Manitoba reduced hospitalization rates
https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/full/10.3138/cpp.37.3.283


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26353380 - 11/30/19 08:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That's a Western hat, ballsalsa.




Hey, whatever it's called, I've infiltrated to organization now.  Pretty soon I'll be doing back alley elk deals.  I'm gonna need a gun rack.



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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26353402 - 11/30/19 08:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That's a Western hat, ballsalsa.




Hey, whatever it's called, I've infiltrated to organization now.  Pretty soon I'll be doing back alley elk deals.  I'm gonna need a gun rack.





I'm planning on raising goats


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter] * 1
    #26353414 - 11/30/19 08:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

do Angora goats.  get that sweet, sweet mohair


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26353418 - 11/30/19 09:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
do Angora goats.  get that sweet, sweet mohair



Nice idea I really want a dairy herd so I can make cheese and kefir


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26353422 - 11/30/19 09:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

you have some land?


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26353430 - 11/30/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No shopping around at the moment I live in Colorado but the climate here is not ideal since I also want to grow some crops. I am looking at the Pacific Northwest and Idaho.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26353434 - 11/30/19 09:18 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

you might be surprised at what can grow in Colorado.
you on the western slope?

Edit: either way, pick a state that subsidizes the construction/installation of biogas digestion systems still.  You know anything about aquaculture?  Ever heard of Keyline planning? 


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Edited by ballsalsa (11/30/19 09:22 AM)


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26353439 - 11/30/19 09:20 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Front Range in Denver. I know farming and ranching occurs in Colorado the problem is water rights land will cost more and theres less rain its basically a desert. I'd rather get more land and not have to worry about the water.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter] * 1
    #26353443 - 11/30/19 09:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Keyline planning, bro.  Water for every farm and shit.  check it out


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26353454 - 11/30/19 09:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I've got a ranch back home I've been itching to buy, but I don't have the funds yet.
oops, just checked on it and someone bought it for a lousy 300k.  Thats what I get for having no money and no credit, lol.
you snooze, you lose.  Someone is gonna make a killing on that place turning it into houses.



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Edited by ballsalsa (11/30/19 09:33 AM)


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26353717 - 11/30/19 11:51 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
See I'm not really talking about inflation though. I'm more referring to capitalistic business practices. I know you like Yang a lot and support his ideas, but you gotta look at it from all sides. If businesses know people have more money, a lot of them will increase the prices of their products simply because they know their customers can afford it.



Yea I get that you think that but it just isn't true.




Got a source for any of that, or is this more "UBI FIXES EVERYTHING" bullshit?

Because ths science says all it does is make people marginally happier.




UBI improves cognitive function by reducing stress.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976.abstract

Namibian UBI Experiment reduced school drop out rates improved health and reduced crime
https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/publications/archive/policy_innovations/briefings/000163

Canadian UBI Experiment in Manitoba reduced hospitalization rates
https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/full/10.3138/cpp.37.3.283




Okay, that's 3 out of 14 claims backed up with evidence. Well, evidence of sorts, because they didn't have control groups.


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InvisibleYangSupporter
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26353810 - 11/30/19 12:48 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

All of those claims are backed up by studies all over the world. UBI is a resounding success wherever it is tried trying to deny otherwise in the face of evidence is foolish.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26353908 - 11/30/19 01:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, I just haven't seen any of this so called "evidence", and you don't seem to be able to link anything.

The only evidence I see is less tress and more happy people. Everything else seems to be pulled out of your ass.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos]
    #26353943 - 11/30/19 01:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Sure, I just haven't seen any of this so called "evidence", and you don't seem to be able to link anything.





I just did its not my fault your to lazy to do the reading. I'm not going to bother linking you more studies since you will disregard them since UBI does not fit your worldview. I have never in my entire life seen so many people fighting to not improve there standard of living its mind boggling.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26354083 - 11/30/19 03:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I never said UBI was a bad idea.

I simply reject your argument that UBI is the second coming of Jesus Christ and will fix every possible problem there is.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos]
    #26354096 - 11/30/19 03:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't recall him saying that.  :shrug:

But I get your point.


--------------------
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26354103 - 11/30/19 03:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think good jobs are getting better and more awesome and bad jobs are getting worse.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26354280 - 11/30/19 05:14 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Given the tremendous opposition to socialized medicine, even though a majority of the population supports it, I'm thinking UBI would be a much tougher sell. It would be more feasible in the future when many jobs are replaced. But in the future environmental disaster will be the overarching issue.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26354934 - 12/01/19 03:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
I'm sure it gives a lot of technical information about how it might not effect inflation (technically) but from a strictly business perspective, if corporations know people have more money, naturally they raise their prices no?



When  Christmas comes around companies put on sales. A modest UBI would do little to influence price decisions.



we agree on a lot; but this one we're gonna have to agree to disagree; that said i support UBI over no UBI; it would help a lot of people; even if it might have adverse side-effects as well



If you would just read the article I posted it debunks your fears about inflation. Since UBI is being funded with no new money printing there would be no inflation.



That’s not what causes inflation


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Guy1980]
    #26354936 - 12/01/19 03:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Guy1980 said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
Okay bro... Here's the last thing I'll say on this. If you're a drug dealer, and you're trying to make money, and you find out everyone in the hood just got $1k+ a month you're going to slowly increase your price per gram until customers complain they can't afford it, or you notice a dip in sales. guarantee

but maybe i'm wrong; all i know is i got family that use to sell used cars, and i'm almost 100% certain that if they new everyone had an extra $1k in their pockets they would sell their cars for more money cuz they new those people could afford the extra payment each month...




In your example, all it takes is for a rival to not raise prices.  So if someone can make the level of profit they need by selling Product X at $10, and their competitor thinks "Everyone has more cash, I'll sell it for $11", the competitor will find sales are down.

Companies will charge as much as they can, but competition keeps a check on it.




Except more cash on the street would mean more demand, and more demand allows for higher prices.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: koods]
    #26354944 - 12/01/19 03:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Economic fatalism helped Macnamara reach his grave with more regrets than he could handle in any finity of lifetimes.  :super:


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26354957 - 12/01/19 04:18 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Given the tremendous opposition to socialized medicine, even though a majority of the population supports it, I'm thinking UBI would be a much tougher sell. It would be more feasible in the future when many jobs are replaced. But in the future environmental disaster will be the overarching issue.



A UBI might sell in the US.  Problem with the US is that it wouldn't really be in the interest of social improvement and that it would need to be accompanied by a pro-labor attitude that people in this country are very proud of rejecting, or else it's likely to just exacerbate the process of social stratification that's already going on on account of the people who would rather die than see an American labor movement gain any momentum.  The problem that the US has isn't that certain economic principles haven't been properly implemented.  The problem is that the people who live in the US have a shitty attitude towards each other and, by and large, genuinely believe that (at least on some level) the poor deserve to suffer.  People have all sorts of excuses for not giving a shit about their neighbors (beyond whatever contrived bullshit about cowboy hats Kryptos rattled out of his/her skull) and they're proud of the fact that they don't care about each other.  The idea of caring for other people just for the sake of community, regardless of whether or not you actually like those people on a personal level, is totally alien to most people to the point that they feel more comfortable ridiculing the idea than baking a loaf of bread for the near invalid old lady down the street.  American have all sorts of dumb-fucking reasons for why they should treat each other like crap, and it's basically just Balakanized, bitter, tribal bullshit.  We love talking shit about each other, and we don't like people.  We sort of like the imprint that people leave through the proxy of computation (pending how favorable we weigh against it) but people will literally trip over their own selves to avoid actually dealing with each other in meat-space.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26355189 - 12/01/19 09:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:


I simply reject your argument that UBI is the second coming of Jesus Christ .



Ok I never claimed that I just proved to you though that it does improve peoples lives that is something to work for and not be rejected simply because you don't like the idea of everyone getting a small stipend.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: koods]
    #26355191 - 12/01/19 09:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Guy1980 said:
Quote:

dreamachine said:
Okay bro... Here's the last thing I'll say on this. If you're a drug dealer, and you're trying to make money, and you find out everyone in the hood just got $1k+ a month you're going to slowly increase your price per gram until customers complain they can't afford it, or you notice a dip in sales. guarantee

but maybe i'm wrong; all i know is i got family that use to sell used cars, and i'm almost 100% certain that if they new everyone had an extra $1k in their pockets they would sell their cars for more money cuz they new those people could afford the extra payment each month...




In your example, all it takes is for a rival to not raise prices.  So if someone can make the level of profit they need by selling Product X at $10, and their competitor thinks "Everyone has more cash, I'll sell it for $11", the competitor will find sales are down.

Companies will charge as much as they can, but competition keeps a check on it.




Except more cash on the street would mean more demand, and more demand allows for higher prices.



Not necessarily Koods https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-income-just-cause-massive-inflation-fe71d69f15e7


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: chibiabos]
    #26355264 - 12/01/19 09:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
People have all sorts of excuses for not giving a shit about their neighbors (beyond whatever contrived bullshit about cowboy hats Kryptos rattled out of his/her skull) and they're proud of the fact that they don't care about each other. 




That was me with the cowboy hat thing, but in all seriousness, you aren't entirely wrong.  You might be seeing things as a little worse than they are, but the general principle is sound.  That being said,  I stopped the other day even though I was late in order to help a guy load a stump into his pickup.  He never would have gotten it himself.  Not the most selfless act ever, but a far cry from treating strangers like crap.  I've pulled over to check on people who crashed their cars with the expectation of having to render first aid.  I've injected myself into a domestic dispute on the street and gotten death threats for the trouble.  I'm not trying to make you think I'm any better than anyone else, on the contrary, I'm trying to show that it isn't as cut and dried as youre trying to make it.  I've also driven right past a car that got hit by a semi and burst immediately into flames.  I've stepped over and ignored many a bum.  I've committed numerous petty road rage acts including tossing a fast food drink on someone's windshield (double whammy for littering).

I guess what I'm saying is that some people care about each other sometimes and there is even a possibility that with some of the cutthroat nature of our existence mitigated( by UBI?) more people might find the time and inclination to care about each other more of the time


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26355297 - 12/01/19 10:14 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yea Ball peoples reasoning and decision making goes down with stress and most stress in the US is related to paying bills. When people could pay all of there basic bills I am positive you will see an increase in kindness and better behavior as the studies I linked showed.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26355332 - 12/01/19 10:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Don't misunderstand me.  While I am not against the idea of UBI, I don't think it likely to curb much of society's ills.  It's a band-aid on a bullet wound.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26355351 - 12/01/19 10:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Don't misunderstand me.  While I am not against the idea of UBI, I don't think it likely to curb much of society's ills.  It's a band-aid on a bullet wound.



Its not perfect but I believe it is superior to many other assistance programs that some poor people get.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: YangSupporter]
    #26357066 - 12/02/19 11:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I simply reject your argument that UBI is the second coming of Jesus Christ .



Ok I never claimed that I just proved to you though that it does improve peoples lives that is something to work for and not be rejected simply because you don't like the idea of everyone getting a small stipend.




You have proven less than a quarter of what you claimed. Would you like me to link that graphic you posted, next to the articles you posted that supported 3 of the 14 bullet points?

Quote:

YangSupporter said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Don't misunderstand me.  While I am not against the idea of UBI, I don't think it likely to curb much of society's ills.  It's a band-aid on a bullet wound.



Its not perfect but I believe it is superior to many other assistance programs that some poor people get.




Why are you limiting yourself to "meh, it's a little better than literally nothing" instead of trying to solve the underlying issues?

It will lead to a violent rejection and backlash ala Obamacare--why not at least make it worth it?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos]
    #26363126 - 12/05/19 02:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

UBI stinks.  What we need is love from the Govt.

I have no idea what people need nor want.  Things are not that bad but yep jobs are usually pretty low on the totem pole.  Not everyone is college material.  It used to be easier to be trained on the job by a professional.  These days employers want experience and are very strict on records.

I do not believe we can be a society that locks everyone up, yet fails to employ minor traffic violators. 

If the govt fails to support people that they've mares for life, crime will only increase drastically.  Do we really want to be a nation that locks people up more than the Soviets or Chinese?

Hard to speak of freedoms when the politics are all but that.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26363928 - 12/05/19 09:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Do we really want to be a nation that locks people up more than the Soviets or Chinese?





We already are, and have been for like, two decades.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos]
    #26363937 - 12/05/19 09:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There's big money in it


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26363949 - 12/05/19 09:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I know, prison stocks have been doing great lately. Especially when diaper don floated the idea of using private facilities for migrants.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos]
    #26363958 - 12/05/19 09:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

isn't the incarcerated segment of the population approaching 10% or some such?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26363967 - 12/05/19 09:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

That may be true for incarcerated at some point, but we're somewhere around 3% of total population currently behind bars or on parole.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Kryptos]
    #26363972 - 12/05/19 10:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

so I was way off, but that's still crazy high.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26364365 - 12/06/19 06:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
isn't the incarcerated segment of the population approaching 10% or some such?





Ha, well above that.  10% are FELONS.  That's as much of a percentage of the Soviets that went to the Gulags.

30 million felons in America.  That's an Army if ever organized.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26364500 - 12/06/19 08:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I think good jobs are getting better and more awesome and bad jobs are getting worse.




:whathesaid:

Being employed in skilled industries like tech or pharma is awesome. The issue is that these industries would rather just hire temps to do jobs that justify a FTE.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/05/28/technology/google-temp-workers.amp.html


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Skellies] * 1
    #26364615 - 12/06/19 09:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Universal health care is the #1 solution to better jobs.

Being able to fuck off a bad job and not worry about your own well being means employers have to improve working conditions. It also empowers people to be self employed, where i'd hope working conditions are more the persons liking.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: christopera]
    #26364667 - 12/06/19 10:06 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was stupid when young And really believed all jobs after high school were full time with benefits.


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #26364690 - 12/06/19 10:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Social Justice Index of Developed Nations Puts US Near Bottom
Quote:

The Social Justice Index (SJI), detailed in a 274-page report (pdf), ranks the more than three dozen European Union and OECD nations based on six key social justice dynamics: poverty, education, the labor market, intergenerational justice, health, and social inclusion and nondiscrimination.

It is the Nordic countries which generally rank highest—with Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden the top five. On the other end, the U.S. came in near the very bottom, ranking 36 out of 41 nations overall, only coming out ahead of Chile, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, and Mexico.




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Offlinechristopera
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26364699 - 12/06/19 10:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I’ve been saying it for years, Bulagaria was better off when it was communist.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26364710 - 12/06/19 10:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I was stupid when young And really believed all jobs after high school were full time with benefits.



They pretty much are if you have work ethic and skills
There's a beyond clear difference in people I know with good jobs and bullshit jobs as adults


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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26364713 - 12/06/19 10:37 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Do skillz with a z count?


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

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I’m sorry it had to be me.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26364714 - 12/06/19 10:37 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

All my mom's friends bitch they can't get full time work because they're too old and cost too much etc... Then you hire one and are like these "lazy millennials" work you under the table :shrug:


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: American jobs are getting worse [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26364784 - 12/06/19 11:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

After seeing the jobs I grew up knowing aduts to have.  My neighbor I grew up next too is in his 60s and had a heart attack.  He wakes up at 4am daily.  He used to be going to work at 5am when I was up to go to swim-team.

My mom went crazy working 3rd shift.

My step dad was a mantience guy and was on call 24-7 and worked far too long of over time at times.

The bureaucracy of work place politics is immense.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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