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Offlineyxngautumn
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Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics)
    #26348639 - 11/27/19 01:28 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Good Evening Shroomery!

I hope you all are living your best lives, I could really use advice on my lastest projects,

Basically, to my dismay, I recently realized I’ve been skipping the whole colonization stage on my coco coir tubs. So my last three tubs are in different stages of disarray haha. Early fae I expect has caused segmented growth and slow pinning.

I’m hoping there are a few people  with experience of starting with poly fil immediately by mistake, from what I’ve read it’s not a deal breaker but it’s definitely not good. My friends and I are really looking forward to these so i’m hoping they are salvageable at the least.

Here are the pics

1st tub Dutch King completed 11/18



(this morning I was heartbroken to find small white trich balls forming, that is what those pink pools are)

2nd tub Golden Teacher completed 11/22


no casing layer to save time, but this combined with the early fae might’ve been bad
signs of fluffy growth are leading me to believe it is contaminated with mold/bacteria

3rd tub Dutch King completed 11/22


also no casing layer

Thanks! :smile:


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26348650 - 11/27/19 01:33 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

side note: forgot to mention, they were all given early fae until about 2 days ago, switched them all to duct tape except the one farthest along


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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26348652 - 11/27/19 01:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Toss the one that triched out. Generally if you haven’t seen the first flush start by the time the trich forms you ain’t going to see one.

GT tub looks a little puffy but will probably fruit if the other Dutch king tub was made with the same spawn/culture as the first one I wouldn’t hold out too much hope for it.

Fae isnt your issue.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: AyePlus]
    #26348664 - 11/27/19 01:41 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It should be fine a lot of people are going straight to fruiting conditions now.

Was it definitely trich??


Edited by A.k.a (11/27/19 01:43 PM)


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: AyePlus]
    #26348680 - 11/27/19 01:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

thanks for the reply, ye I know, I just figure since it was such a small spot I could maybe get one flush in quick, even tho I know it’s taken over already. :frown:
I kno shroomery is generally anti playing with trich

& generally I would agree that the spawn is the issue, but I also read introducing fae too early leads to contams so i’m sure that didn’t help. It looked pretty healthy to me despite it, so the trich threw me off this morning

& yeah unfortunately I had recent grain that seemed to get bacterial no matter how long you pc’ed it, I’ve learned my lesson on that & will stick with what I know works even if it’s a little more expensive. ~30 jars and weeks of waiting down the drain, but we back

the jars that went into these bins weren’t perfect but were still colonizing 🤷🏻‍♂️ so I didn’t want to waste them

to aka; yes unfortunately it was definitely trich, I’ve familiarized myself with it by now 😓 I was hoping it was primordial knots but on second review it was trich, one of the spots even had a green hue despite not having obvious spores released, perhaps that means it’s coming from within 🤔
they were tiny tho


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OfflineGrowtech
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26348751 - 11/27/19 02:32 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

yxngautumn said:& yeah unfortunately I had recent grain that seemed to get bacterial no matter how long you pc’ed it, I’ve learned my lesson on that & will stick with what I know works even if it’s a little more expensive. ~30 jars and weeks of waiting down the drain, but we back




Are you PCing it properly (like venting for ~10 minutes to get the air out)?

If you think you are getting non-sterile grain after PCing it, I'd suggest reading bod's PC tek:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24180711

If you are getting bacteria no matter what, you should go up your chain and figure out where it's coming from.  If you are inoculating with a multi-spore syringe, maybe it has bacteria in it?  It's not that common to have contamination-free MS syringes.  And while a lot of contamination can be overtaken by healthy mycelium, the OCD part of me always tests via agar (I'd say about half of the syringes I've dealt with grow bacteria "boogers" on the plate before seeing any mycelium you can transfer away).


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: Growtech]
    #26348849 - 11/27/19 03:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

no i actually haven’t been venting it! that’s great to know, thanks, I feel crazy now, but my first runs were okay, perhaps because the syringes were much fresher? They’re a few months old now.

regardless, definitely venting from now on 👌🏼 thx for the link

& i did not know syringes are infected at that rate! although I have heard they’re not generally sterile, bacteria is a ugly one.

I’m a bit new to agar, I came in with a lot of confidence and then learned u can’t really easily separate/identify bacterial infections easily on agar so that was a bummer
I think, for now, I’ll just do transfers with the grain jars that look the best perhaps, after testing with a bunch of syringes


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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26348911 - 11/27/19 03:40 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Wherever/whoever you read that introducing fae early could cause issues was straight up wrong. Properly prepared bulk subs and clean grain can be spawned to a dumpster and would still kick out at least one flush before succumbing.

It’s also pretty easy to see bacterial contamination on agar but harder on grains, if your agar looked clean but jars went bacterial I’d blame your technique or sterilization.


If you’re going to keep going multi spore to Grain your basically playing the lottery over and over again and tbh there isnt much anyone can say or do to help you if thats your MO. Agar is easy, fun and the only assured path to success.


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: AyePlus]
    #26349076 - 11/27/19 05:07 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

With all due respect, I’m fairly certain that it does inscrease risk of contamination, I’ll include screenshots as reference.

And I want to like agar, I really do, haha but I only really need it for bacteria, and according to my research on agar and bacteria, it is one of the hardest to identify and separate, that’s why i’m having a tough time, as the bacteria becomes intertwined in the mycelium and you end up having to use a sandwich tek to try and separate them.

Maybe I just wasn’t good at distinguishing bacteria on agar, once I get a few fruits and make new syringes I’ll try again

thx for the all the advice

pics:


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26349088 - 11/27/19 05:11 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Be careful reading those older threads, I wasted a lot of time before I realized you could filter the search engine. From what I’ve read it seems like half the things being done 3-4 years ago have been tested and phased out.


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: A.k.a]
    #26349150 - 11/27/19 05:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

😕 shoot, thanks for the tip

i feel like it makes sense tho no? that it should finish colonizing before placing in fruiting conditions?


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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: A.k.a]
    #26349171 - 11/27/19 05:45 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

:whathesaid:


those posts are old/ dated,


and the first one is correct but out of context, coir is not a nutritious substrate so it doesnt really apply here

and the second one was written by someone with a less than perfect rating and corroborated by someone with no rating at all.


I spawn in open air directly to fruiting conditions 100% of the time. 1 layer of mp tape on a traditional 6 hole monotub. works great
:thumbsup:


full colonization/consolidation is only helpful in the case of blobbing varieties like SW PE, and even then I think casing is probably the better move since it can be laid at spawning

afaic the less work/attention i have to give to these projects the better.

set+forget+harvest= winning


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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26349178 - 11/27/19 05:47 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Start agar, whoever told you that you can't separate myceliun and bacterias on agar dont know what they are talking about. Above you also wrote that you used jars that were not fully colonized, that's a new one for me as well, I thought we couldnt get away with that in this hobby.


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OfflineGrowtech
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26349209 - 11/27/19 06:00 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

yxngautumn said:
And I want to like agar, I really do, haha but I only really need it for bacteria, and according to my research on agar and bacteria, it is one of the hardest to identify and separate, that’s why i’m having a tough time, as the bacteria becomes intertwined in the mycelium and you end up having to use a sandwich tek to try and separate them.

Maybe I just wasn’t good at distinguishing bacteria on agar, once I get a few fruits and make new syringes I’ll try again




It's incredibly easy to distinguish mycelium vs. bacteria unless it's some bizarre strain of bacteria I've never seen (mold would be more difficult to tell apart sometimes, but I've never had mold issues from MS syringes... it's always bacteria).  But just to give you an example, I have a plate that grew a giant bacteria booger for 2 weeks... then mycelium sprouted from the edge of the bacteria.  Easy to transfer the mycelium away from the bacteria now.



But ya... you can very clearly tell the difference between normal bacteria and the mycelium.

You don't need to go down the isolation route trying to get a "pure strain" if you don't want, but I'd definitely recommend doing an agar to grain transfer excluding the bacteria.  It's a little more work, but it's less work in the end when you factor in how many less contamination fails you will end up with with your grain.


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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26349216 - 11/27/19 06:03 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

good catch meaculpa

Quote:

yxngautumn said:
the jars that went into these bins weren’t perfect but were still colonizing 🤷🏻‍♂️ so I didn’t want to waste them






if this means the grains werent fully colonized when you spawned them, well thats your problem right there, FAE refers to amount of air exchange once in fruiting conditions, after spawning.


anything highly nutritious(grain, brf, etc) that isnt colonized will definitely contam if you open the container, during that phase we only allow filtered gas exchange.

bulk substrates prepared properly and clean grain soawn are resistant to contamination. no matter how much you baby dirty soawn its still never going to perform as well, its a good idea to always have backuos and multiple projects going so if one fails you habe a replacement ready, better tovthrow away dirty spawn than a whole contaminated tote, fills up the compost bin quicker and takes more work, plus it increases your contaminant spore load.


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: AyePlus]
    #26349393 - 11/27/19 07:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

wow! lots of information thank you everybody, this is much more effective than researching old posts.
much appreciation 🙏🏻
a few things to mention;

1. On the agar, that’s awesome news, looks like I’m headed back, I just want to ask, is there any contam that would appear hidden on agar? & how would I go about cleaning it up? That’s my biggest concern when working with agar is my cultures look a bit fluffy or uneven and I don’t want to unknowingly work with a dirty culture as I’m not extremely confident. I know you mentioned mold, any remedy for cleaning up mold or parasitic contams, or just make multiple plates and hope for the best? I guess it’s not too common.

2. I see you noted you use micropore tape immediately, this is very intriguing to me. I was doing exactly this, successfully, if you look at my signature, when I first started growing tubs. I was under the impression I was incorrect in that I overlooked fruiting/inoculation conditions. I recently read a post that stated, in regard to micropore tape for fae, “try putting mircopore tape over your mouth and breathing, then do the same with polyfill”

because of this I immediately stopped using mircopore tape and started using polyfill instead, I figured the little fae it was getting was mainly from fanning so I thought ‘once I switch to polyfill I’ll have super thick oxygenated fruits’ but since switching I’ve had contam after contam, may be time to go back.. the journey is wild, and a bit stressful haha i like the gif btw
I know you say you forget about them, do you find yourself having to fan them at all with one layer of mircopore once they fruit?

3. the jars I used were indeed fully colonized, they just weren’t ‘perfect’ as in slightly slow and spotty, but they did manage to become all white by the time I transferred them, my mistake if i was unclear on that, I just meant they might’ve been slightly bacterial while colonizing in the jars.
& thx for the advice on the jars, your definitely right, better to use that energy on a clean batch, if I wasn’t behind on production I probably would’ve tossed them but they were the only batch I had at the time 😅

such a revelation 🤯 ty again everybody


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OfflineGrowtech
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26349408 - 11/27/19 07:26 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

yxngautumn said:
1. On the agar, that’s awesome news, looks like I’m headed back, I just want to ask, is there any contam that would appear hidden on agar? & how would I go about cleaning it up? That’s my biggest concern when working with agar is my cultures look a bit fluffy or uneven and I don’t want to unknowingly work with a dirty culture as I’m not extremely confident. I know you mentioned mold, any remedy for cleaning up mold or parasitic contams, or just make multiple plates and hope for the best? I guess it’s not too common.



If you are worried about the mycelium maybe being fluffy mold, let it grow out a bit more and you can start to tell the difference.  But from your original post, it sounds like the issue is bacteria, not mold.  And bacteria is super easy to tell the difference on agar.

Nothing will be 100%... you could have perfect aseptic technique, in front of a flow hood and you could still get contamination sometimes.  You really shoot for what you can do for the highest probability to be contamination free.  For your situation, I'd highly recommend starting with agar, doing a clean agar to grain transfer (just the mycelium, leaving the bacteria behind).  That alone will probably give you 25x more contamination-free jars.  Again, the little bit extra (easy) work in exchange for not having to keep dumping contaminated grain is going to be worth it.


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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: Growtech]
    #26349425 - 11/27/19 07:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

That's a really good thread, I haven't been venting either but bods thread makes total sense.
:toast:


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Offlineyxngautumn
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: Growtech]
    #26349426 - 11/27/19 07:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I was actually just about to post these pictures of some old petri dishes I wasn’t sure of perhaps I could get your guys thoughts

some have infections and still seemed to fruit so I guess fruiting is not an indicator of clean spawn



Ironic that the only mushrooms I’m able to get my hands on are microscopic :rolleyes: haha

hopefully you see what I was talking about in terms of the cleanliness of the sample being in question

edit: yea venting is the ish, can’t believe i’m just now hearing about it, also I was thinking about taking small tissue samples of the fruits that popped in the agar?
In theory I should end up with a fairly clean, quick, strong genetic no? thoughts?


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Edited by yxngautumn (11/27/19 07:47 PM)


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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: Is there any hope for my tubs?? Apocalyptic (w/pics) [Re: yxngautumn]
    #26349437 - 11/27/19 07:47 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Truely hidden contams happen but are relatively rare, there are many types of bacteria and some can move around pretty effectively and even ride along the mycelium, they usually alter the morphology/shape of the myc they are growing with which results in patchy or uneven growth, puffyness etc, so theyre not really hidden when you know what to look for,

heres some good reading to get you started:

Stro's guide to cleaning and isolating on agar

Kizzle's guide to recognizing and dealing with contamination

Bod's search engine tek

And don't forget to look at the date and a posters ratings when reading posts, they're not perfect but they help. The trusted cultivator badge is also helpful to look out for, but just because someone doesnt have one doesnt mean they don't know whats up, however if there is conflicting info from two posters and one has.the badge and one doesnt, you know who to beleive. again not perfect but helpful


bacterial plates will still pin, just like bacterial tubs or cakes can still push fruits but the bacteria weakens the immune system and competes for nutrients so your yield is fucked and contams set in early

one of my favorite ways to clone is grabbing a pin from a ms plate and transfer to a new one, guaranteed fast fruiting culture, yield and potency still need to be tested but not a bad starting point IMO and really easy. and if the donor plate is clean it only needs one transfer and its ready to use.


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