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InvisibleThe lurker
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New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms * 1
    #26348567 - 11/27/19 12:55 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

“ Using 1D and 2D NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) spectroscopy, Blei et al. analyzed extracts from Psilocybe cubensis, P. mexicana, P. cyanescens, and P. semilanceata. They identified these ß-carbolines in the extracts: Cordysinin C, Cordysinin D, Harmane, Harmol, Norharmane, and Perlolyrine. Figure 1 shows their chemical structures. These compounds have previously been isolated from fungi and plants in genera such as Cordyceps, Peganum, and Banisteriopsis.”
- https://psychedelicreview.com/scientists-discover-new-compounds-in-magic-mushrooms/

This Coupled with the GABAergic Kavalactone compounds detected in gymnopilus sp...it seems like various species (with this new evidence, possibly even isolated varieties within a single species) can have much more varied effects based off actual varying alkaloidal compositions and not placebo..

So with this for once and for all I finally put too rest “a cube is a cube”. With this new evidence, there is absolutely no reason that varying isolated strains/varieties within a single taxonomic species cannot develop their own stabilized alkaloid profile varying with genetic/environmental changes/mutations that have specific varying effects based off the specific isolate at hand. There is absolutely enough known compounds at this point for effects too vary based off real alkaloidal changes in potency.

I can already smell the arguments of set and setting being the thing that’s mostly responsible for varying effects and a cube is still overall a cube...well...doesn’t just you believing that make it true for the experience if set and setting are so fragile??

Before, we thought cubensis had around 4-5 known compounds, that could possibly vary in specific potency within a sp (why couldn’t it if such drastic cosmetic mutations/variations are possible?) but couldn’t have much specifically different effects..well that’s faulty logic anyways, since we only knew of those 4-5 main compounds, and everyone agreed different species cause different effects based on varying levels of these 4-5 alkaloids... this was my previous argument for differing effects (That no one seemed to want to get into anyways) but I think it’s just strengthened quite a bit at this point..

...:popcorn:


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26348606 - 11/27/19 01:10 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting.... 🤔


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker] * 2
    #26348736 - 11/27/19 02:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The lurker said:

So with this for once and for all I finally put too rest “a cube is a cube”. With this new evidence, there is absolutely no reason that varying isolated strains/varieties within a single taxonomic species cannot develop their own stabilized alkaloid profile varying with genetic/environmental changes/mutations that have specific varying effects based off the specific isolate at hand. There is absolutely enough known compounds at this point for effects too vary based off real alkaloidal changes in potency.




:aliceshocker:  Been saying this for years, nice to have some factual evidence as well. :havesomescience:


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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26349044 - 11/27/19 04:56 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: pixelpopper]
    #26349309 - 11/27/19 06:38 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26349691 - 11/27/19 11:04 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Very cool breakthru science! Now there's proof that even cubenis strains can vary in subtle ways depending on their unqiue alkaloid content.

:strokebeard:


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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26349826 - 11/28/19 01:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

This doesn't actually show anything regarding cubensis. First, the detection of other chemicals doesn't in and of itself mean a lot. Those chemicals are not necessarily present in a high enough dosage to cause any effects. Second, this looked at actually different species like cyanescence vs cubensis, not the same species.

The reason people say "a cube is a cube" is because of the nature of multispore inoculation and genetics. It's essentially a role of the dice every time when you use multispore. There are millions of genetically different spores mating with each other in multispore. You never know what you're going to get other than cubensis. All the cubes from multispore are essentially the same as a result. Except of course for those very few that actually have genetically different spores like redspore. But everything else is just a role of the dice when taken from spores.

In addition, it wouldn't be surprising if woodlovers genuinely had something different in them. That's been suspected for a while because of woodlover paralysis. But, the people who use woodlovers a lot tend to say they think it's just an effect of psilocybin.


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InvisibleThe lurker
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: nooneman]
    #26350151 - 11/28/19 08:25 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yup I’m aware luckily none of those things effect any points I made. I mean the researchers speculated the compounds do have an effect on the experience so I’m sure they did detect them in large enough quantities but nonetheless, Did you read any of what I’m actually arguing? Because it’s not dependent on the evidence at hand at all

Yeah I’ve heard people make the argument a million times and I understand how MS works that changes nothing ..I’m specifically talking about Isolated and “stabilized” strains and varieties of cubensis. Not multispore. Isolated strains that develop their own profile of unique characteristics; you still haven’t told me why it’s not possible for these isolated strains too develop their own unique alkaloid profile as well. Which is my entire argument

For example...you’re working with the “Cambodian” variety and “gt”..those names don’t mean much and effects aren’t going too depend off that...now, if you develop an isolated strain of either variety and stabilize the isolate, it’s very likely each of these isolates are going too have somewhat differing alkaloid potencies, and ratios of alkaloids too other alkaloids which would cause different effects. I say this since we’re literally manipulating their genetics and we only seem to think we’re manipulating what we can see when that isn’t the case...the whole reason they develop these alkaloids is a genetic function, and who knows how much we’re manipulating that function...

This is as true for the 4-5 known alkaloids as it would be if any of these compounds were detected in large enough amounts too cause an effect.

Wood lovers as in certain psilocybe’s are not unique in alkaloids compared too other sp, we used too think baeocystin was exclusively in wood lovers but that’s absolutely not the case, they just contain higher levels of that compound.. You probably say that because that’s what you’ve tried...pan cyans pan cinctulus gymnopilus species psilocybe cubensis species I’ve tried from the wild and cultivated all have drastically different effects in the same setting and it’s probably due to the differing levels of the 4-5 main known alkaloids, but that’s actually not true anymore since we know gymnopilus contain kavalactones.. and we have this new evidence...so it’s definitely likely it’s due to more alkaloids than the 4-5 known ones

Gymnopilus are wood lovers, they don’t cause paralysis but do genuinely contain something different and there’s evidence for it.

When you got to this part you totally lost me, “All the cubes from multispore are essentially the same as a result.” It seems like you started off describing the exact opposite, the only similarity all cubes have from multi spore is they’re all very different :lol:


Edited by The lurker (11/28/19 08:28 AM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: nooneman]
    #26350439 - 11/28/19 11:18 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
But, the people who use woodlovers a lot tend to say they think it's just an effect of psilocybin.




Not in my experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleThe lurker
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26351802 - 11/29/19 11:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I expected wayy more resistance on this :lol:

I’m really curious too see how this opens up more research on this specific topic and hopefully a more in depth explanation of the function and effects of all these compounds together..there isn’t even anywhere near scientific explanation for how the 4-5 previously known compounds interact with each other.

Any speculation is welcomed! This study kinda blows out of the water everything we thought about how these mushrooms effect us on a physical level.

Despite 4-ho-dmt (psilocin) being an orally active form of nn,dmt (would love too have a discussion about this!) it seems like mushrooms might be way more similar too ayahuasca than we previously thought in their physical function with the new evidence of these beta carbolines, very interesting...


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Edited by The lurker (11/29/19 12:49 PM)


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OfflineMateo
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26351946 - 11/29/19 12:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This is very interesting news.
I know some very experienced mushroom trippers add Syrian Rue seeds to their mushrooms.
This produces a much stronger mushroom trip.
If some psilocybes contain ß-carbolines (the type of MAO inhibitors in Syrian rue and Banisteropsis Caapi) it could increase potency and alter the effects of the mushrooms.
This could explain why some psilocybes seem to have a very strong effect even though their pilocybin/psilocin levels are not exceptionally high.
I wonder if the ß-carboline compounds in the psilocybes is present in just trace levels or if there is a bigger amount.
Also what these specific ß-carboline compounds have for properties, how much of them is needed to start affecting the psilocybin/psilocin experience.

Intresting, it might be that our beloved mushrooms are a bit similar to the ayahuasca brew.
I hope there will be more research in this area.


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: Mateo]
    #26352065 - 11/29/19 01:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I also wonder if those beta carbolines are present in high enough quantities to alter the effects of psiloc(yb)in. :strokebeard:

I know from experience that harmine and harmaline both potentiate and prolong a psilo experience to a great extend.
But you have to take a massive ammount (in relation to the psilocin!) to really have a noticable impact.
Like 100 to 150mg of pure harm(al)ine. A strong psilocin dose is 20 to 30mg..

If those "new" beta carbolines are present in traces only, then I doubt they have an effect on the overall experience.

But what do we know.. Interesting topic for sure! :mushroom2:

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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: Mateo] * 1
    #26352076 - 11/29/19 01:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Why resist science? I believe "a cube is a cube" is based on the experience that trips from the very same material can turn out vastly different, and so it's very hard, if not impossible, to pinpoint subtle differences between psychedelics. Now that we have some evidence, it's good to know, but it's still pretty hard to pinpoint subjective variables.

Like how I can't seem to agree with a friend on whether LSD is lighter or heavier than mushrooms. He says it's heavier; I say it's lighter. And we both have dropped varying doses of both. And nobody doubts the two are different, but it's harder to agree what they are like. It's like, you know, the UK can be central London with lots of international expats, heavy traffic, an all-permeating smell of Indian food... or green rolling hills, fresh air, little walled-in pastures with sheep, and local English farmers in front of a pub. Every psychedelic is a gate to a billion worlds.


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InvisibleThe lurker
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: PsyduckMonkey]
    #26352168 - 11/29/19 02:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah that's true, and all substances do have different effects for everyone at the same dosage, but it physically and basically effects our receptors in the same way, Attaching too a specific receptor, the duration of how much of the drug was 'absorbed' into the receptor, etc. One person, and imo any person though, can draw their own repeatable distinctive subjective effects comparing different mushrooms, substances or whatever, that might appear differently too someone else, granted dosage, set & setting, and the genetics of the various mushrooms you ate were nearly exactly the same.

if you drop exactly 100 mics of lsd (meth or something would probably be a better example) and maintain the exact body weight and brain chemistry as you had when you first dropped it, in the same general set and setting, the effects are going too be nearly indistinguishable. This is something about lsd that's agreed upon by most people who've taken it enough times too feel such a thing, that it's basically the same thing every time for each person. However, no one can agree on the specific subjective effetcs of lsd....

This probably has more too do with our limited form of communication more than anything
Quote:

Mateo said:
This is very interesting news.
I know some very experienced mushroom trippers add Syrian Rue seeds to their mushrooms.
This produces a much stronger mushroom trip.
If some psilocybes contain ß-carbolines (the type of MAO inhibitors in Syrian rue and Banisteropsis Caapi) it could increase potency and alter the effects of the mushrooms.
This could explain why some psilocybes seem to have a very strong effect even though their pilocybin/psilocin levels are not exceptionally high.
I wonder if the ß-carboline compounds in the psilocybes is present in just trace levels or if there is a bigger amount.
Also what these specific ß-carboline compounds have for properties, how much of them is needed to start affecting the psilocybin/psilocin experience.

Intresting, it might be that our beloved mushrooms are a bit similar to the ayahuasca brew.
I hope there will be more research in this area.




Could totally be what explains the reason for some species feeling stronger but not having a higher psilocybin/psilocin and visa Versa, very interesting didn’t think about that

I’m assuming there’s there’s a bigger amount than trace levels, since the researchers basically concluded it probably has a large effect on the experience. Just an assumption though, I can’t seem too find the actual published study online. There’s references for it below the article if anyone wants too try too find it

If these beta carbolines do have a similar action too that of ayahuasca, or just things like making the tryptamine compounds more bio available/potent, what does that tell us about the intelligence of..mushrooms, or nature in general? And about the actual reason they contain all those compounds in the first place?


Quote:

Pandemoon said:
I also wonder if those beta carbolines are present in high enough quantities to alter the effects of psiloc(yb)in. :strokebeard:

I know from experience that harmine and harmaline both potentiate and prolong a psilo experience to a great extend.
But you have to take a massive ammount (in relation to the psilocin!) to really have a noticable impact.
Like 100 to 150mg of pure harm(al)ine. A strong psilocin dose is 20 to 30mg..

If those "new" beta carbolines are present in traces only, then I doubt they have an effect on the overall experience.

But what do we know.. Interesting topic for sure! :mushroom2:

-



I would speculate even in trace amounts they would have some effect on the binding/absorption etc, aspects of the actual tryptamine's present..but who knows the actual physical functions/interactions these compounds have beyond mao inhibition

I don't think technically harmine or harmaline were detected though similar compounds obviously were, i think even if they were present it would make sense you'd need too take a larger amounts than present for the level of mao inhibition most people are looking for.. but i'm not sure. Maybe some are especially potent

That's a good point but even so, what if instead of talking about levels of compounds in the plant matter we talked about the amount of plant matter holding the compounds.. i believe people are recommended too start off with around 2-3g or less of Syrian Rue for potentiation.. does that change anything in your view? It's Kinda complicated though because we're relating leaved plants too fungal fruiting bodies.



I also wonder what this could tell us about the Low Blood Pressure/even Seizure aspect some experience on psilocybin containing mushrooms.


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Edited by The lurker (11/29/19 02:29 PM)


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26352186 - 11/29/19 02:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, harmine or harmaline were not detected, but the similar compounds harmane and harmol, which act also as a maoi. That's why I brought them up.

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InvisibleThe lurker
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26352213 - 11/29/19 02:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Oh i get it! Didn't mean for it to come off like that..
Quote:

The lurker said:
though similar compounds obviously were, i think even if they were present it would make sense you'd need too take a larger amounts than present for the level of mao inhibition most people are looking for.. but i'm not sure. Maybe some are especially potent




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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26352242 - 11/29/19 03:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Right. The potency of those compounds is the question here.

And in which quantities exactly are they present? That would be interesting to know.

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InvisibleThe lurker
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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: Pandemoon]
    #26352255 - 11/29/19 03:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah i can't find the actual research. Its referenced under the article i posted but i couldn't seem too find it.

I wonder how much we know about the potency of those compounds detected.. gonna look into that


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Re: New beta carbolines detected in 4 species of psilocybin containing mushrooms [Re: The lurker]
    #26357970 - 12/02/19 08:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Check sci hub, I found it there. 
Not sure how to upload a pdf or I would, although not sure that would be allowed.
Long live sci hub!


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