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Onlineqman
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26356990 - 12/02/19 10:36 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
It is important to be intellectually honest.
It is also important to not inadvertently carry water for right wing scumsuckers.
Its a fine line.




No, it really isn't "a fine line", it only triggers people that very defensive about the failures of their own ideology.

The fact that I point out Trump's economic failures for his supporters doesn't mean I'm now an automatic supporter of left talking points, that's fallacious reasoning.

The pointing out of specific failures of the left or right do NOT define a person and their ideology, that's a childish and potentially dangerous fashion of dealing with criticism.  It's called jumping to conclusions and using prejudice as a weapon against people that get out of line with a movement.

If pointing out failures in particular ideologies sometimes enhances the other side, so fucking be it. What's more important to you, the truth or protecting failures of your own ideology?  I prefer the truth.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: qman] * 2
    #26357008 - 12/02/19 10:56 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Now qman, let's be fair here, I gave Falcon91Wolvrn03 two options to avoid being inadvertently perceived as supporting alt-right politics - be more explicit in your criticism of the right was one suggestion - be more precise in the language you use to criticize both the Democratic party and left in general was also an option.

Imprecise language allows room for misinterpretation - Falcon91Wolvrn03's statement was admittedly imprecise - do you have a problem with my calling this out?

It's weird how the left has become the party of hate and war since Trump took office.

In what ways is this statement imprecise?

Well, using "the left" to refer to the Democratic party, which perpetuates a popular misconception that benefits the right-wing two-party system of the USA - using a definite article to describe the party of hate and war rather than an indefinite article, which implies that these qualities are specific to one side - there's two basic errors of grammar and syntax

'It's weird how the Democrats have become a party of hate and war since Trump took office' is more accurate - but even here, there are inaccuracies. Just looking back to the Obama presidency, we can see widespread Democrat support for wars in Libya and Syria. We can also currently see that although Republicans support withdrawal from Syria while Democrats are opposed, the exact opposite appears to be the case with the war in Yemen. The notion that the Democratic party is displaying massively increased militarism in response to the Trump presidency just doesn't appear to be based in reality, but I would be open to Falcon91Wolvrn03 providing their reasoning.

That leaves us with 'it's weird how the Democrats have become a party of hate since Trump took office' and that statement, boiled down, just sounds ridiculous - both parties are victim to petty partisanship but I don't see Democrats holding two minute hate rallies where people chant 'lock her up!' and 'send her back!' Perhaps Falcon91Wolvrn03 could better illustrate the hatred he perceives and provide an actual critique of left-wing or Democratic politics, rather than sharing half-baked opinions that just happen to mirror alt-right rhetoric.


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Onlineqman
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26357040 - 12/02/19 11:23 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

I'm not going to speak for Fal and the reasons why he made certain statements, but to me it really doesn't matter what his OPINION is on certain issues. He has the right to make those assessments without being prejudged on his "motivations" and being accused of making alt-right or alt-left talking points.

Isn't the best fashion to improve a movement is to point out its deficiencies?  I voted for Trump and then made a very long list of his failures after being elected. Some people didn't like that fact and assumed I'm now a Trump basher for illegitimate reasons.  Maybe they're correct (even though I don't think so) and I'm now hurting the movement they hold on to so tightly. At the end of the day, I really don't give a shit. I don't care if I offend the left or right, I don't care if I enhance the left or right. I'm going to tell it how I see it and just let things fall where it lands.

To get back to your original point, I agree that more precise language does help any potential misconceptions that could arise. With that being said, I don't think a disclaimer is needed after every post, it is what it is.


Edited by qman (12/02/19 11:24 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26357067 - 12/02/19 11:50 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03's statement was admittedly imprecise - do you have a problem with my calling this out?



Yes.  I probably should have said something like 'It's weird how the Democrats have become more hateful and militant since Trump took office'.

Why didn't you correct me when I first said it?  Someone's compliment seems to have triggered you.  :smirk:

Anyway, it's cool, I agree with your criticism.  :toast:

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The notion that the Democratic party is displaying massively increased militarism in response to the Trump presidency just doesn't appear to be based in reality, but I would be open to Falcon91Wolvrn03 providing their reasoning.



Speaking of semantics and imprecision, where did I say "massively increased"???  :smirk:

Sure, have a look at the numbers about withdrawal of troops from Syria:



Far more democrats oppose withdrawal.

But what's even more surprising is that we see similar results for Afghanistan:



Don't even get me started on Democratic hostility towards Russia.  We've had countless threads on how Democrats think we should beef up sanctions, get tougher over Crimea, etc.


Ultimately, it seems the only thing Democrats (and possibly Republicans) care about is:  "What does Trump want?  I'm going to oppose (support) it!"  People like koods can't think critically anymore.



More:  As Democratic Elites Reunite With Neocons, the Party’s Voters Are Becoming Far More Militaristic and Pro-War Than Republicans


--------------------
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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: qman] * 1
    #26357078 - 12/02/19 11:59 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I'm not going to speak for Fal and the reasons why he made certain statements, but to me it really doesn't matter what his OPINION is on certain issues. He has the right to make those assessments without being prejudged on his "motivations" and being accused of making alt-right or alt-left talking points.



Let me assure you that I am not using any perceived knowledge of Falcon91Wolvrn03's motivations when passing judgment on their statements. I'm taking their statements at face value and pointing out that, regardless of actual intent, they mirror alt-right rhetoric and as a result they will have the same effects as alt-right rhetoric - again regardless of prior intent.

Beyond that, the statements we make do effect how others perceive us, and that perception in turn effects how our statements are perceived. The boy who cried wolf is a classic example of that dynamic. I'm not calling Falcon91Wolvrn03 a liar - but my point is that if they continue to share alt-right rhetoric it is only a matter of time before they are associated with alt-right rhetoric.



Quote:

qman said:
Isn't the best fashion to improve a movement is to point out its deficiencies?  I voted for Trump and then made a very long list of his failures after being elected. Some people didn't like that fact and assumed I'm now a Trump basher for illegitimate reasons.  Maybe they're correct (even though I don't think so) and I'm now hurting the movement they hold on to so tightly. At the end of the day, I really don't give a shit. I don't care if I offend the left or right, I don't care if I enhance the left or right. I'm going to tell it how I see it and just let things fall where it lands.



I fully agree with the importance of internal criticism, and I have never shied away from such discussions. The statement of Falcon91Wolvrn03 that spawned this discussion was not constructive criticism - if anything, my post pointing out its deficiencies is just an attempt to improve their critique of the Democratic party or left-wing politics.



Quote:

qman said:
To get back to your original point, I agree that more precise language does help any potential misconceptions that could arise. With that being said, I don't think a disclaimer is needed after every post, it is what it is.



And if you use sufficiently precise language, there will be no need for a disclaimer anyways - if the language is imprecise, assume you will be misunderstood.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26357087 - 12/02/19 12:05 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

I think what needs to be proven here is that the democrats have moved farther right because of trump, and not just a natural reorientation post Obama. Not saying Obama was a dove but he was forced to make certain concessions that Hillary or any other dem potus would not have.

I mean look at the Ilhan Omar thing (which was started by Pelosi and other Dems). The establishment is trying to protect their left flank by demonizing any opposition whatsoever to bipartisan mainstays like unquestionably supporting Israel, and regime change in places like Venezuela. As the GOP embraces “trumpism” the Dems have to decide whether to be the party of anti war or try to triangulate that sweet spot of compassionate imperialism that Obama and every other Dem before him occupied.

Maybe you can make an argument that the Dems are moving right on FP to chase Trump, but they aren’t doing because Trump is a dove, or is somehow reversing establishment policy.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26357110 - 12/02/19 12:17 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why didn't you correct me when I first said it?  Someone's compliment seems to have triggered you.  :smirk:



I was late to the thread and read through it all before responding.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Speaking of semantics and imprecision, where did I say "massively increased"???  :smirk:



That was my interpretation of what it means to become "the party of war" - massively increased militarism. What did you mean by that phrase?



Otherwise, I agree that Democrats do not currently support withdrawal from Syria while Republicans do - do you know how much of that support is the result of militaristic imperialism, and how much of that support is the result of not wanting to leave Kurdish allies to the mercy of the Turkish state? Furthermore, you said that this militarism was a result of Trump’s presidency - can you show that support for the war in Syria experienced significantly less support during Obama's presidency?

Finally, the wars in Syria and Afghanistan are not the only wars that the US currently finds itself involved in. As I showed previously, support for the war in Yemen experiences significantly more support among Republicans than with Democrats - how does this reality play into your claim that Democrats are now the party of war?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26357136 - 12/02/19 12:33 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think what needs to be proven here is that the democrats have moved farther right because of trump, and not just a natural reorientation post Obama. Not saying Obama was a dove but he was forced to make certain concessions that Hillary or any other dem potus would not have.

I mean look at the Ilhan Omar thing (which was started by Pelosi and other Dems). The establishment is trying to protect their left flank by demonizing any opposition whatsoever to bipartisan mainstays like unquestionably supporting Israel, and regime change in places like Venezuela. As the GOP embraces “trumpism” the Dems have to decide whether to be the party of anti war or try to triangulate that sweet spot of compassionate imperialism that Obama and every other Dem before him occupied.

Maybe you can make an argument that the Dems are moving right on FP to chase Trump, but they aren’t doing because Trump is a dove, or is somehow reversing establishment policy.




Democrats really need to quit this whole "bipartisanship" thing. Bipartisanship relies on two parties acting in good faith. Just like you don't negotiate with someone by moving closer to their price while they refuse to budge. At this point, "bipartisanship" with the GOP has led to the overton window moving right, as the GOP moves right expecting the "bipartisan" democrats to continue following.

Democrats really need to just grow a spine, and if necessary, pull a Moscow Mitch. Shut down the GOP agenda without even bringing it up for debate.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26357138 - 12/02/19 12:35 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I agree that Democrats do not currently support withdrawal from Syria while Republicans do - do you know how much of that support is the result of militaristic imperialism, and how much of that support is the result of not wanting to leave Kurdish allies to the mercy of the Turkish state?



The only Kurds left "to the mercy of the Turkish state" are the ones who didn't agree to the peace terms.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Furthermore, you said that this militarism was a result of Trump’s presidency - can you show that support for the war in Syria experienced significantly less support during Obama's presidency?



It was in the Glenn Greenwald article I linked to.
Quote:

While Democrats were more or less evenly divided early last year on whether the U.S. should continue to intervene in Syria, all that changed once Trump announced his intention to withdraw, which provoked a huge surge in Democratic support for remaining.




Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
As I showed previously, support for the war in Yemen experiences significantly more support among Republicans than with Democrats - how does this reality play into your claim that Democrats are now the party of war?



First of all, I already agreed I should have said "a" party of war, not "the" party of war.

And in my last post, I said "Ultimately, it seems the only thing Democrats (and possibly Republicans) care about is:  "What does Trump want?  I'm going to oppose (support) it!"  People like koods can't think critically anymore."

That seems to be why Democrats now support war.  That's likely why we're seeing this shift.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Kryptos] * 4
    #26357154 - 12/02/19 12:49 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think what needs to be proven here is that the democrats have moved farther right because of trump, and not just a natural reorientation post Obama. Not saying Obama was a dove but he was forced to make certain concessions that Hillary or any other dem potus would not have.

I mean look at the Ilhan Omar thing (which was started by Pelosi and other Dems). The establishment is trying to protect their left flank by demonizing any opposition whatsoever to bipartisan mainstays like unquestionably supporting Israel, and regime change in places like Venezuela. As the GOP embraces “trumpism” the Dems have to decide whether to be the party of anti war or try to triangulate that sweet spot of compassionate imperialism that Obama and every other Dem before him occupied.

Maybe you can make an argument that the Dems are moving right on FP to chase Trump, but they aren’t doing because Trump is a dove, or is somehow reversing establishment policy.




Democrats really need to quit this whole "bipartisanship" thing. Bipartisanship relies on two parties acting in good faith. Just like you don't negotiate with someone by moving closer to their price while they refuse to budge. At this point, "bipartisanship" with the GOP has led to the overton window moving right, as the GOP moves right expecting the "bipartisan" democrats to continue following.

Democrats really need to just grow a spine, and if necessary, pull a Moscow Mitch. Shut down the GOP agenda without even bringing it up for debate.




Well this is assuming the Democrats ARE acting in good faith. We’ve all seen how they legislate when they have a supermajority: enact a healthcare plan created by right wing think tank Heritage Foundation, popularized by Governor Mitt Romney..

Trust me, the Democrats LOVE having their hands tied. It means they can keep pretending to be the good guy without having to actually prove it.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26359221 - 12/03/19 02:23 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think what needs to be proven here is that the democrats have moved farther right because of trump, and not just a natural reorientation post Obama. Not saying Obama was a dove but he was forced to make certain concessions that Hillary or any other dem potus would not have.

I mean look at the Ilhan Omar thing (which was started by Pelosi and other Dems). The establishment is trying to protect their left flank by demonizing any opposition whatsoever to bipartisan mainstays like unquestionably supporting Israel, and regime change in places like Venezuela. As the GOP embraces “trumpism” the Dems have to decide whether to be the party of anti war or try to triangulate that sweet spot of compassionate imperialism that Obama and every other Dem before him occupied.

Maybe you can make an argument that the Dems are moving right on FP to chase Trump, but they aren’t doing because Trump is a dove, or is somehow reversing establishment policy.




Democrats really need to quit this whole "bipartisanship" thing. Bipartisanship relies on two parties acting in good faith. Just like you don't negotiate with someone by moving closer to their price while they refuse to budge. At this point, "bipartisanship" with the GOP has led to the overton window moving right, as the GOP moves right expecting the "bipartisan" democrats to continue following.

Democrats really need to just grow a spine, and if necessary, pull a Moscow Mitch. Shut down the GOP agenda without even bringing it up for debate.




Well this is assuming the Democrats ARE acting in good faith. We’ve all seen how they legislate when they have a supermajority: enact a healthcare plan created by right wing think tank Heritage Foundation, popularized by Governor Mitt Romney..

Trust me, the Democrats LOVE having their hands tied. It means they can keep pretending to be the good guy without having to actually prove it.




On the one hand, yes.

On the other hand, there is a bit of a genius in implementing what was, in effect, a GOP health plan. It completely fucked the whole "repeal and replace" idea, while still being marginally better than the previous status quo.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Kryptos]
    #26359647 - 12/03/19 05:27 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

On the other hand, being only 'marginally better' led a lot of people to believe that healthcare overseen by the Government isn't as good as people like Bernie know it can be.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26359747 - 12/03/19 06:29 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Yeah being shitty ineffectual dumbasses is actually a good quality for a politician. Then they can say “see how much of a dumbass I am? Don’t trust the government with healthcare. Trust private corporations!”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360210 - 12/03/19 11:50 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...can you show that support for the war in Syria experienced significantly less support during Obama's presidency?



It was in the Glenn Greenwald article I linked to.
Quote:

While Democrats were more or less evenly divided early last year on whether the U.S. should continue to intervene in Syria, all that changed once Trump announced his intention to withdraw, which provoked a huge surge in Democratic support for remaining.



In my last post, I said "Ultimately, it seems the only thing Democrats (and possibly Republicans) care about is:  "What does Trump want?  I'm going to oppose (support) it!"  People like koods can't think critically anymore."



Since there's no rebuttal, and since there are polls backing this up, it appears that indeed democrats have turned into a party of war since Trump took office.

Some of us maintain our principles, but the koods of the world only care about supporting whatever is opposite of Trump.


--------------------
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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360347 - 12/04/19 02:39 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

People are disturbed with the way trump withdrew, not that it shouldn’t be done.

Stop misrepresenting other peoples opinions


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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: koods]
    #26360701 - 12/04/19 09:29 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Republicans were happy about the withdrawal.  I was happy about the withdrawal.

You wanted the Kurds to keep fighting to the death.  Get out of here with your fake concern.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26360714 - 12/04/19 09:36 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Really? Republicans were happy about the withdrawal?

Seems to me you're bullshitting again.


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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360783 - 12/04/19 10:16 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Really? Republicans were happy about the withdrawal?



Yes.  I provided the evidence in the Glenn Greenwald article.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Seems to me you're bullshitting again.



You confuse Congress with Republicans.  It's no surprise that people funded by the military industrial support war.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26360801 - 12/04/19 10:30 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

A majority of Republican rabble think diaper don is better than Lincoln and would trust his word over the literal second coming of Jesus Christ.

Their opinions on this are next to worthless. diaper don has spoken, so they agree.


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Re: Debating left contra right on The Shroomery is not taking us anywhere [Re: Kryptos]
    #26360855 - 12/04/19 10:58 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

We’ve all seen how they legislate when they have a supermajority:




I don’t think anyone has had a supermajority in the past 30 years


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* Old Debate Cont'd.... nugsarenice 539 3 07/09/02 06:21 AM
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