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InvisibleZwieback0
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Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside:
    #2634797 - 05/04/04 12:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Some of you may remember, but I posted a question about Creeper potency in this forum not so long ago. It turned into a long and tendious argument that led to nothing more than condescending "off-topic" forum style bashing between shroomerites. Some swore creepers were extremely potent while others complained it lacked "the kick" experienced in other strains.

Anyways, my friends complained about my cat's creeper strain and its lack of potency. They said my cat's past batches were much better. I knew shroom potency didn't vary significantly between strains and made it my personal mission to prove their wrong.

A couple weeks later, I gave them an 1/8th each of the exact same strain, creeper. I lied and told them it was a different strain and exclaimed how my other buddies praised the new strain's high potency.

That night, they took the shrooms with the predisposed notion that this "new strain" was going to give them a great trip. And it did.

In conclusion, potency is largely a mental game.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2634809 - 05/04/04 12:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I agree! a cube is a cube!


edit=let me add,that if there was a significant difference in strains ,someone would have come up with a "super Cubie",by now!


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Edited by doc34 (05/04/04 12:49 AM)


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InvisibleZwieback0
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2634818 - 05/04/04 12:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Pisses me off to hear that my cat's batch were inferior, when the true fact is, they are dumb asses.


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OfflineDSD
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2634835 - 05/04/04 12:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)


Z
i agree to an extent, most cube strains aren't that different than the others, but on the other hands some strains, batches, seem significantly stronger than others - even if grown on the same grains, substrate etc.....


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2634844 - 05/04/04 12:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah,Hey givem a valium and tell them its a qualude!lol :cool:


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InvisibleZwieback0
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: DSD]
    #2634860 - 05/04/04 12:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Of course.  Unlike cyans or etc, general cubie strains, like GT, EQ, Creep, etc don't seem to vary in potency much.

Yes, some people have said substrate does affect potency, but it is yet to be proven :smile:


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OfflineKommunist
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2634872 - 05/04/04 12:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No way creepers are the weakest


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OfflineDSD
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Kommunist]
    #2634930 - 05/04/04 01:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)


i absolutelythink grains produce BIGGER mushies than say pf tek, i did the corn thing once and i alo wasn't impressed - but that could just be me !


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Kommunist]
    #2634951 - 05/04/04 01:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Creepers are just fine...My first Hawaiians were sorry ass shrooms but later batches were great...i never knew why they were bad but they were...Creepers are very potent when grown properly


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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OfflineDSD
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2634981 - 05/04/04 01:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)


i agree i think the creepers are pretty potent - strange how sometimes it differs from batch to batch even though it may be from the same mother print.


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2634989 - 05/04/04 01:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

my first shrooms were EQ's and MAL grown on PF cakes, and people said the duration just wasnt there. i personally tripped my ass off and thought they were really good. so the next time i grew HAW on finch seed and told them that these would definitely be way more potent and might be too much for em cuz they were grown on a subtrate that makes shrooms even more potent. and guess what they said.. "hell yeah man, definitely way better, i shroomed all night!"

set and setting plays a big part too


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OfflineDSD
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2635004 - 05/04/04 01:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)


definitely true.


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Offline0xYg3n
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2635071 - 05/04/04 01:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so many factors involved.....


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: 0xYg3n]
    #2635082 - 05/04/04 01:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"so many factors involved..... "


as in?


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2635126 - 05/04/04 01:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Temp,nutrition,h2o content are just a few


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2635196 - 05/04/04 01:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I know this has a somewhat of an effect I'm sure ,but is there any documentation stateing that one strain of "Psilocybe Cubensis" is stronger in potency than another strain of the same?


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2635217 - 05/04/04 01:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes many times but its really small when you are talking about cubensis...Copelandias are very potent but they are a different species


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2635252 - 05/04/04 02:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

we are talking about cubes right?
I just feel like Zwieback0,I think it is so minute in difference,that you will make up the rest buy positive thoughts,makeing yourself believe something to be true when in all reality its such a small difference that would go unnoticed any other time.


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2635268 - 05/04/04 02:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah we are talking about Cubies and i am glad someone finially agrees with me...Cubes are so close you cant really tell a difference because every tripp is different and set and setting play a very important role...Sorry i thought you were asking about all different types...I grow a Florida strain of Pan Copelandias also that are very potent and they arent that much harder at all


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2635288 - 05/04/04 02:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Dont you forget me paw paw! :rolleyes:


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2635306 - 05/04/04 02:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hopefully i will have a lot of prints from these...BlueMonkee sent me the wild print and it is pretty good coloniser...with any Cope they can contamm very easily..I`ll know in a couple of days


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2635311 - 05/04/04 02:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Post pics,we want to see!


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2635341 - 05/04/04 02:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

All i have now is these EQ`s...I didnt patch very well so its not a nice pinset...Nobody has ever complained about the potency of these bad boys but these have allways been great...sorry ass pic  :confused:


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Offline0xYg3n
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2635350 - 05/04/04 02:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

************************************************

Hey man,

I just wanted to thank you for the contributions you've made by coming up with evidence to further enforce your argument. Most people don't think twice about what they say and it's aggrevating because this is when bashing, flame fests, and just down right irratating things are said to each other.

A round of applause to Zwieback0 for going out on a limb!

************************************************


Edited by 0xYg3n (05/04/04 02:41 AM)


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: 0xYg3n]
    #2635373 - 05/04/04 02:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Hey man,

I just wanted to thank you for the contributions you've made by coming up with evidence to further enforce your argument. Most people don't think twice about what they say and it's aggrevating because this is when bashing, flame fests, and just down right irratating things are said to each other.

A round of applause to Zwieback0 for going out on a limb! "
:handth:


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: 0xYg3n]
    #2635380 - 05/04/04 02:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Zwieb knows what he is doing... :smirk:


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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InvisibleZwieback0
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2635488 - 05/04/04 03:12 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Was that in any way a form of mockery?  If so, I'm too dumb to notice.  haha :smile:

Anyways, thanks, just wanted to spread the information and MAYBE settle this dispute once and for all...although it is quite unlikely.

*pats self on the back*


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2635501 - 05/04/04 03:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No mockery...not at all.. 5 shrooms for starting the thread because it was good/informative :smile: :thumbup:


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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InvisibleZwieback0
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2635503 - 05/04/04 03:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Muhahahhaha! thanks!

Never underestimate the mind, its a very powerful instrument!


Edited by Zwieback0 (05/04/04 03:21 AM)


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2635552 - 05/04/04 03:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

doc34 said:
I know this has a somewhat of an effect I'm sure ,but is there any documentation stateing that one strain of "Psilocybe Cubensis" is stronger in potency than another strain of the same?




Here is a post that shows research into the potency variation between different cultures and different flushes. There is also another paper that shows potency variation between different strains (although I cannot find it now).

Potency variation is not all in your mind. It is real, it has been tested.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2635618 - 05/04/04 04:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

very informative!Thank you.

Now then,
"Analysis of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer) grown in controlled culture showed that the level of psilocin was generally zero in the first (or sometimes even the second) fruiting of the mushroom from a given culture and that the level reached a maximum by the fourth flush. The level of psilocybin, which was nearly always at least twice the level of psilocin, showed no upward or downward trend as fruiting progressed, but was variable over a factor of four. Samples obtained from outside sources had psilocybin levels varying by over a factor of ten form one collection to the next. "



This leads me to believe two things.
1> Outdoor grown cubes are more potent than indoor cubes
2> Potency varies from batch to batch not strain to strain

maybe I read that wrong?


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InvisibleSorted
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2637404 - 05/04/04 05:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zwieback0 said:In conclusion, potency is largely a mental game.



Hmmmm dunno.. I think about five people have had various batches of PRs off me (without knowing what strain they were) and all commented on how high the potency seemed. They were grown the same as I grow other strains so it wasn't due to substrate/enviromental differences. PRs are pretty much always the ones that people ask for first now :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2637873 - 05/04/04 07:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

All you have to do is read any information on chemical analysis of cubensis and THERE IS THE PROOF that not all cubensis are the same.

There is variability from mushroom to mushroom, flush to flush, strain to strain, species to species. It has been shown quantitatively. There are differences in the ratio of Psilocin and Psilocybin. The proof is out there, all you have to do is READ.

A simple glance at the cubensis section of Stametes book PMOTW will show that there was variability between collections from different geographical locations(STRAINS).

Those that continue to argue that a cubensis is a cubensis REALLY don't take the time to actually READ what has already been shown scientifically, or they are choosing to ignore the FACTS that contradict there experience or opinion.

Everyone reacts to any chemical differently. DOSAGE is extremely variable from person to person, so EXPERIENCE would be variable as well. When a group of ten people eat a set amount of Mushrooms each, they will all have different experiences of intensity. Some people get off Extremely hard on very small quantities, others don't get off at all at Extremely high doses.

So argueing against quantitative proof with Experience is NOT A VERY SOUND ARGUMENT.

Just my teo cents, supported by quantitative analysis.


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InvisibleZwieback0
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2637909 - 05/04/04 07:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes there are differences, but usually it isn't very significant. Saying creeper are more potent than ecuadors is not a valid assumption and I bet most people can't tell the difference. Like people said, substrate and the way you grow them may influence the potency, but the change is not dramatic.

I bet other factors play a role too. I.E. body weight, stress, mental stability, metabolism, etc etc.

What I am trying to say is...the mind is extremely powerful, if you take mushrooms with the mentality that you will have a good trip, you most likely will. I'm not saying it's all about the mind, but it plays a role.

Try the experiment. Give a friend/test subject two strains to try, cultivated in identical ways. Let the subject try the first strain, tell him to record his results and observations. Wait a month or 3 later and then give him another strain, repeating the process. Wait one or 3 months more and give them a strain previously used in their trips and let them guess which strain it is. They have a 50% chance to guess correctly, but I'm kinda doubtful.

I'm just telling you what I observed.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2637933 - 05/04/04 07:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Teonan said:
There is variability from mushroom to mushroom, flush to flush, strain to strain, species to species. It has been shown quantitatively. There are differences in the ratio of Psilocin and Psilocybin...




No one is disputing that mushrooms grown in different parts of the world, under different conditions are going to vary in potency. When people say a cube is a cube, I believe they're mainly saying that two different strains of mushrooms grown under similar conditions, will be more or less the same.

No need to have such a condescending tone.

--Aeolus


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Offline0xYg3n
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2638041 - 05/04/04 07:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think that guy totally missed the point you were trying to make  :rolleyes:


Edited by 0xYg3n (05/04/04 07:56 PM)


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2638070 - 05/04/04 08:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Everyone reacts to any chemical differently. DOSAGE is extremely variable from person to person, so EXPERIENCE would be variable as well. When a group of ten people eat a set amount of Mushrooms each, they will all have different experiences of intensity. Some people get off Extremely hard on very small quantities, others don't get off at all at Extremely high doses."


SET and SETTING my friend ,from your post!


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2638071 - 05/04/04 08:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with you Z! :thumbup: :cool:


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #2638075 - 05/04/04 08:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

yup.I have a hard time explaining myself at times and you did a better job than me.Thanks


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2638116 - 05/04/04 08:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A mushroom that produces 0.2 percent psilocin and 0.6 percent psilocybin is going to be very different from a mushroom that produces 0.6 percent psilocin and 0.2 percent psilocybin. Even though the total content is the same. You will be able to tell the difference within 1 hour of ingesting, or within a half hour of doing a tea or extraction.

Personally I prefer strains that produce a greater number of mushrooms per dry weight, then those that produce fewer mushrooms per dry weight, but that is my personal prefrence.
GT is my personal favorite. I like every strain I have tried for consumption, just don't like cultivating some of the strains.

IT has been proven quantitatively that they are different, and it is my opinion as well that they are different. You will notice the difference most at lower doses.

Try 1.75 grams of five different strains, and do it five times each. Write down when you ate them, when you felt them, when you felt like it was over. Give them a rating from 1-5. Decide which one you LIKE the most. Then eat 5 grams dry of each strain tested and make a decision.

Determing which Strain is BEST for YOU is up to you. The numbers only tell us which ones have the most activity, and at what ratio.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2638126 - 05/04/04 08:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What is the psilcybine/psilocyn ratio for Psilocybe Cubensis?


What is a Golden Teacher? A cube
what is penis envy?a cube
what is etc etc etc

it may vary somewhat but not enough to label a particular strain of cubensis as most potent-because if there were one,someone would be coming out with a "Super Cube".
:thumbup: :cool:


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Edited by doc34 (05/04/04 08:25 PM)


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2638173 - 05/04/04 08:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Variable, in case you missed most of the facts posted here. You can read over this post again and figure out for yourself. Oh, outside sources do not mean outdoor mushrooms, it means outside the laboratory...

IMO, none of the bioassay tests would be any amount of proof to me, as there are too many variables within the human body, and from person to person. This is not proof, analysis is proof.

I would like to see this done in reverse. Give some people 1-2 grams of Psilocybe Cyanescens, Psilocybe Azurescens, or Panaeolus cyanescens. Tell them they are a very weak mushroom and see what happens. I seriously doubt they will agree they are weak...


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2638195 - 05/04/04 08:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Read the first post!
creepers are cubes,not copes,not azures, not ps cyans.


I'm not going to continue this arguement it has no Merit.
Set and setting=mind games=variables!


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2638233 - 05/04/04 08:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

it is different from STRAIN to STRAIN, and even within the Strain it would vary from mushroom to mushroom.

Strains are variants of a single species growing in the same geographical location or in different geographical locations.

I KNOW THAT SET AND SETTING play a part in determing the effects of the trip. I am not disputing that. I am simply stating that a CUBE is NOT A CUBE. There are differences between each and every Strain in circulation on the OMC, or that can be picked from the wild. There are variants within a single field.

Variation is based on differences not similarites.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2638237 - 05/04/04 08:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

" I am simply stating that a CUBE is NOT A CUBE."

What the hell are they then?


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #2638255 - 05/04/04 08:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My tone is whatever you imagine it to be.

There is a difference between what we believe, and what we quantify.

There is a difference between how we experience a certain mushroom, and what amount of activity it has been proven to contain, by the best means we have to quantify such things.

Arguing facts to some of you folks is a waste of time. You always take it like an attack. I am not attacking anyone, just the INFORMATION being spewed.

Believe what you wan't. I am still going to attack your bad info with good info, regardless of how it makes me seem. We are trying to make this a place where good info can be obtained.

We quantify differences so that SET and SETTING can be removed from the equation.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2638259 - 05/04/04 08:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Substrate effect on potency,I would agree!
different growing parameters effect on potency,I agree!
Geological locations effect on potency,Maybe,I agree!

Dont pick me apart people for agreeing that Psilocybe Cubensis grown under the same conditions(ie,substrate,parameters,and location-everything the same)-------will be so close that you would not be able tell the difference in potency unless you were led to believe that because"some one told you so",

Obviuos "Common sense"!

pick someone else to battle with,some people believe parsley and homegrown are the same thing to-but some people are just plain stupid!


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2638260 - 05/04/04 08:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Do you have a link to this research?


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2638264 - 05/04/04 08:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

UH oh,trouble has arrived!lol


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2638289 - 05/04/04 09:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Psilocybe cubensis is Psilocybe cubensis. Psilocybe cubensis GT is not the same as PSilocybe cubensis EQ. They have different amounts of total activity, they have different ratios of active ingredients, they ALSO have different cultural peculiarities, different outward appearances, and different microscopic appearances.

They are different.

The cube is not a cube, was refering to Strain variation.


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2638356 - 05/04/04 09:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why don't you start with Psilocybin mushrooms of the world.

Just for your information the majority of Scientific information in the world is not on the internet.

Strains still remain strains grown in the exact environmnet, at least for a while. A GT growing side by side with an EQ in the exact same environmnet will have differences that you can see, and quantify.

If you really need more sources then was already linked to by another member in this thread I can give them to you.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2638431 - 05/04/04 09:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i had a site much better... went into depth about different cubies and others but this is all i got for now

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_info9.shtml


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2638439 - 05/04/04 09:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A Strain is a population of individuals with a certain genetic makeup. Even within this population the individuals are variable, but certain things remain constant.

Growing ten substrains of a Strain in the exact environmnet, might show a variable range in potency from substrain to substrain and individual to individual. The ratios, and total activity will remain with a range for each STRAIN, and they will be variable from each other. Some strains might produce more PSilocin, versus Psilocybin. Some may produce a maximum of 1 percent total, othersmight produce a maximum of .6 percent total.

Different Strains growing in the same environment come up Different from each other.

GENETICS + Environmnet = final mushroom (phenotype)

You are arguing that

Mushrooms with different genetics + same environmnet= same phenotype.

YOU ARE WRONG. Your world would never exist if what you were saying was true.

What does happen is over time different mushrooms growing in the exact same environmnet might become more similar over time, but only more similar, never exactly the same.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2638516 - 05/04/04 09:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I just want to know what the most potent "strain" is, and what the most potent substrate is.


and if there's enough difference for it to matter.


Is there more variation from one strain/race to another than there is from one mushroom to another of the same strain/race?

and how much real difference does substrate make?


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2638606 - 05/04/04 10:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I fed my buddy some dried shitake mushrooms with blue food coloring on them and he swore he was wiggin out. I told him they were fake but he wouldn't believe me. I bought them at the grocery store.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2638646 - 05/04/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Psilocybe=Genus?
Cubensis=species?
GT,PE,B+ etc..=Strain?

If I go out in the wild and pick a "NO STRAIN PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS"and I bring it indoors and grow this out via agar,whatever method,and I cultivate this(isolate) "strain" and I label it-"Blazures" does that make it more potent than the one that produced it?

Maybe you are in search of the perfect cube and I think we all are but,the potency is in the substrate,why?I MIGHT be WRONG again,but if you can find the exact ratio required of psilocybe Cubensis for nutrients in order for it to fruit to its maximum(THE ULTIMATE ALIEN SUBSTRATE MIX!!!! So to speak),If you give them every trace nutrient they need to reach maximum production(growth,potency,size,etc,etc),which we cant cause we dont really know what they are,lol,but if we could,then,and only then,would there be a significant and noticeable difference,why?,because no-one has done it yet that I know of(where is this super potent growing substrate?)We cant give them every thing they need to reach that level,(only the shroom god can),given time I'm sure,but not yet!
So we are stuck with the true and tried teks.Now if you take 2 pf tek brf jars-1=creeper,1=Gt, and you fruit these and eat each one(different times)you will not feel a difference in potency!You may think you "feel more"-KEYWORD=think ,but, if you take the same 2 strains and you use rye berries and case them and eat them(at different times)you wont feel a difference between the 2 rye berried jars,but compared to the brf jars,you may(or not)have a noticeable difference in strenght.More nutrients = better mushrooms!
A cube is a cube !


Teonan ,
although your opinion is
"YOU ARE WRONG. Your world would never exist if what you were saying was true."
,is your opinion,and you are entitled to such-Until you can show me proven documentation that there is a superior strain of Psilocybe Cubensis,along with the strain name and a good supplier who has an ass load of them in stock(they'll need them),I really would appreiciate it ,and then You can say "YOU ARE WRONG",until then please keep those remarks to yourself,Thank you!


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OfflineAeolus1369
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2639072 - 05/05/04 12:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think at this point, this thread is getting tangled up in semantics and miscommunications.

FACT:
Because of genetic variability between strains of cubes, different phenotypes will result even if the same substrate is used and they're raised under the same conditions.

What's being argued here is whether the genes affecting psilocybin and psilocin production vary significantly enough to produce a markedly different "psychotropic phenotype."

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that strains would adapt morphologically to better fit the particular environmental they are in. What's dubious is whether there are any selective pressures on genes regulating psilocybin and psilocin production. It is possible that they are not mutually exclusive (i.e. if psilocybin tends to be produced in a specific part of a mushroom that is more voluminous in a particular strain), but it seems to me that there is no way to design an experiment with any validity to test these theories because a) The psychedelic experience is too subjective and b) Psilocybin and psilocin may not be the only psychotropic agents present (i.e. baeocystin)

--Aeolus


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #2639272 - 05/05/04 12:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It did get tangled up a bit eh? What was being said is that your mind plays a significant role in what level of experience you have, and strain does not matter. It's sort of like the placebo effect with a kick in the ass. Two arguments are happening at once here, kinda confusing. But, I will state this again more clearly this time:

I would like to see the original test subjects be given a mushroom of markedly more potency (hence why I mentioned Psilocybe Cyanescens, Psilocybe Azurescens, or Panaeolus cyanescens) with a reversal of the experiment. Give them their regular dose for cubes and tell them these are a bit weaker than the usual cubensis. Do you really think this would work? These people wouldn't know what they were in for...

And for all the cube is a cube fans:
If they are the same, why do different strains have different appearances then? Why do some grow bigger than others, some thicker, etc? Would you not think since there is so much variation in macroscopic appearances that there would be variation in alkaloid production? Honestly, people who think they are all the same obviously need to grow out more strains. As to which is the most potent: How could you possibly test this when it varies from flush to flush, and culture to culture from within the same strain? Bioassay tests are too subjective, you need chemical analysis...

This thread started out good with the mind playing a major role. But then it got ruined by the stupid strain potency argument that will wage forever. I have a friend that every time he tries a new one, they are the best he has ever had. I don?t really notice a difference, but I have had ?weaker than other? batches here and there. Bioassay for potency is way too subjective with too many variables at play?


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2639308 - 05/05/04 01:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You guys listen to Teonan ...you might get some really good cult tips  :cool:


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2639343 - 05/05/04 01:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't bother reading the whole thing.

Hypothetically speaking, if you usually reach a level 4 trip when you consume an eigth of cubie mushrooms out of a possible 10 levels, you will not get a level 8 or 10 just because you decided to eat an eigth of a different strain of cubie mushrooms.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: OldSpice]
    #2639582 - 05/05/04 02:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oh I'm listening.no problem there!I just disagree,to a degree.I'm intitled to do that right?

It varies only from mushroom to individual mushroom-not batch to batch,or strain to strain.No two mushrooms are alike!be it the same strain or not! Stating that,I can say that, the only way to increase the potency of a given strain is find the two most potent mushrooms in the first flush and the following flush and microscoplically(sp?)-lol-mate a spore from each mushroom(I dont know how thats done either-so leave me alone on that)and the resulting mateing has to be grown out and the process repeated-at least 3? times(leave me alone)in order to Obtain A "true" strain that could be more potent.

Did I say something wrong again?

lmao
:thumbup: :cool:


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2640101 - 05/05/04 04:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It varies only from mushroom to individual mushroom-not batch to batch,or strain to strain.No two mushrooms are alike!




Exactly. One should then come to the conclusion that it would vary strain to strain. The thing that needs to be considered is there is no cubensis strain that is as potent as say Psilocybe azurescens (not even close). The difference between strains is probably not any more measurable than that between batches of the same strain. Too much emphasis is placed on potency. But there was a controlled study that compared the alkaloid content of two different strains and showed a marked difference. I wish I could find that again, it has been posted here before. This potency debate has raged too long, especially since every week someone asks which strain is the most potent. Everybody has their own comment. I have said it a few times before "I refuse to enter this debate anymore", but the "placebo effect" part lured me in to this one.

Quote:

Stating that,I can say that, the only way to increase the potency of a given strain is find the two most potent mushrooms in the first flush and the following flush and microscoplically(sp?)-lol-mate a spore from each mushroom(I dont know how thats done either-so leave me alone on that)and the resulting mateing has to be grown out and the process repeated-at least 3? times(leave me alone)in order to Obtain A "true" strain that could be more potent.




It is much more complicated than that. How would you know that the spores you were germinating and mating microscopically have the genetics you desire? The genetics from the print of those "superior" mushrooms vary just as greatly as the spores that mothered them...



I retire....


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2640164 - 05/05/04 04:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"The thing that needs to be considered is there is no cubensis strain that is as potent as say Psilocybe azurescens (not even close). "


Psilocybe Azurescens is not a cube!Irrelevant issue!


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2640181 - 05/05/04 04:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

'It is much more complicated than that. How would you know that the spores you were germinating and mating microscopically have the genetics you desire? The genetics from the print of those "superior" mushrooms vary just as greatly as the spores that mothered them...'



check the post called STRAINS


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2640230 - 05/05/04 05:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Your missing my point here. There will never be a cube strain that will be much more potent than the majority of others. I am simply using the other species as a measure of potency. Would you rather me say there is no strain that will produce "x" amount of psilocybin more than the other strains? Does that make sense?

Obviously Psilocybe azurescens is not Psilocybe cubensis.
Damn...


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2640684 - 05/05/04 08:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

>"Your missing my point here. There will never be a cube strain that will be much more potent than the majority of others. I am simply using the other species as a measure of potency. Would you rather me say there is no strain that will produce "x" amount of psilocybin more than the other strains? Does that make sense?"


No Atwar you are missing my point.

>"There will never be a cube strain that will be much more potent than the majority of others."

Oh really? Can you prove the merit in such a bold statement?


>"I am simply using the other species as a measure of potency."

why do you keep doig that?That has nothing at all to do with this post notta-zip!
Dont try to pull me in another direction and deter from the questions at hand!

>"Would you rather me say there is no strain that will produce "x" amount of psilocybin more than the other strains? "

No I wouldnt want you to make yoursewlf out to be a misinformed individual!

>"Does that make sense?"

not to me it doesnt,sorry!

>"Obviously Psilocybe azurescens is not Psilocybe cubensis.
Damn... "

Thank you for clearing that up!


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2641060 - 05/05/04 12:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think your ever going to see the point of my post. Perhaps you should read over it a few more times, disregarding the different species names. I simply used it as a guide for potency (WTF else am I to use?)

I am done with this one... It's a stupid arguement and it seems I am never to get my point across to you. You just keep getting stuck on the part where I mention the other species as a measure of potency.


Edit:
Let's see if I can formulate this into a language you can better understand. I would like to see this experiment done again with the test subjects given a mushroom that is known to have "x" amount of psilocin/psilocybin more than the previous ones they were given. Then tell them they are a weak cube. Do you think these people would have a lesser experience because of this suggestion?


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Edited by ATWAR (05/05/04 12:26 PM)


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2641108 - 05/05/04 12:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

" I simply used it as a guide for potency (WTF else am I to use?) "


just like the original post by Z! cube to cube,isolate to isolate,clone to clone,bloodline to bloodline,strain to strain

need i say more?
"Edit:
Let's see if I can formulate this into a language you can better understand. I would like to see this experiment done again with the test subjects given a mushroom that is known to have "x" amount of psilocin/psilocybin more than the previous ones they were given. Then tell them they are a weak cube. Do you think these people would have a lesser experience because of this suggestion? "

Nope! but if you tell them they are more potent and better abd blah,blah,blah then yes they will believe they are better!
its in the mind!

edit=the effects of a given amount of said drug, given at the same dosage levels,to 2 different people,will be basicaly the same,(i know they vary from individual to individual)tell 1 they are the best,and tell the other one they are better than dudes(the other test subject)and I'll bet you a fresh crisp $100.00 dollars of good old American cash-that they will be in a heated debate about their experiences,1 saying"mines the best"and the other ssaying"mine was better than yours"

its a good thing Atwar dont take this as a personal attack and get mad,I think I am learning something here-if I can just get ahold of it.

:thumbup: :cool:


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Edited by doc34 (05/05/04 12:44 PM)


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2641171 - 05/05/04 12:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

edit=the effects of a given amount of said drug, given at the same dosage levels,to 2 different people,will be basicaly the same,(i know they vary from individual to individual)tell 1 they are the best,and tell the other one they are better than dudes(the other test subject)and I'll bet you a fresh crisp $100.00 dollars of good old American cash-that they will be in a heated debate about their experiences,1 saying"mines the best"and the other ssaying"mine was better than yours"




Subjective. How could they argue which experience was better (especially since these are two different people)? What would they use as a guide?

I agree your mind plays a role, but I really do not think it is that significant. This is why I would like the original test subjects be given the same experiment reversed.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2641211 - 05/05/04 12:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Subjective. How could they argue which experience was better (especially since these are two different people)? What would they use as a guide?"

I said "experiences"I was again refering to the original post by Z as to potency!

So can we now come to the conclusion that from Gt's to Creeper's,the potency variables will be so minute in differences,that one could not distinguish them apart in a blind "taste test" for potency?

I agree!


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2641448 - 05/05/04 01:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So can we now come to the conclusion that from Gt's to Creeper's,the potency variables will be so minute in differences,that one could not distinguish them apart in a blind "taste test" for potency?




I also agree to an extent. While I have had weak and strong batches, there are some strains that stand above others in my mind. There are also others that fall to the bottom of the pack. When these were put into a blind bioassay test there is probably no way you could come to the conclusion that one was far better than the other. This is where the mind comes into play. Chemical analysis of alkaloid content is really the only way to determine if a strain is markedly more potent than another (bioassay is far to subjective). But who is going to put multiple samples of each strain, from different cultures, and different flushes into a gas chromatograph (then taking an average from each)?


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ATWAR]
    #2641475 - 05/05/04 01:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

whoa whoa whoa whoa











I hear you!
:thumbup: :cool: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2641790 - 05/05/04 03:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zwieback0 said:
I didn't bother reading the whole thing.

Hypothetically speaking, if you usually reach a level 4 trip when you consume an eigth of cubie mushrooms out of a possible 10 levels, you will not get a level 8 or 10 just because you decided to eat an eigth of a different strain of cubie mushrooms.





u kno, cubies are not the only kind of magic mushroom... cubies vary very little except for some like puerto rican which is a little bit more potent, but there are definately others which are between 3 to 10x more potent


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: berto23]
    #2642171 - 05/05/04 05:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ay, I know, but we are talking about cubies here, no other! I reiterated that fact...2nd to last word in that post.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2642904 - 05/05/04 09:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You guys still hackin away about cubensis differential in potency?
A cube is a cube...I cant tell the differance between BRF WBS or CORN when i eat it and the same with the cubes i grow from it... :cool:
Except for some Mazzys that were unreal ... :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2643030 - 05/05/04 09:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

this threads makes me happy.. :laugh:


potency is all in the head... a cube is a cube.  the only difference in strains are the region they were founded...  its like the human race.. some people are stronger than others but in general there are more people in the same strength class. :smirk:


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2643053 - 05/05/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

to clarify my above statement even more... people from africa arent' stronger than people from america and people from south america aren't stronger than icelanders.. they are all the same...  now if you pick out the strongest of those people than you have a supory strian of people... buts thats called racism now and we can't allow that on these boards. :wink:

I can see how if, I ate an 1/8th of cubes and had a strong trip and then ate an 1/8th a month later and it was a weak trip.. I would chalk it up to setting and diet, not potency of a strain...

I grow different strain b/c of there regions not b/c of there potency....


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2644472 - 05/06/04 08:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Very well stated!!

Thank you


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2644716 - 05/06/04 10:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

you're ignoring evolution.

years of being inslaved and put to backbreaking labor on a daily basis _over time_ would create a race generally stronger than the people the slaves worked for. why wouldn't this be true of mushrooms? also people living close to the equador or where the sun is harsh have darker skin to protect against the sun (blacks, arabics ect.), people north of it have lighter skin, and not darker skin because of sunburn but born with darker skin. what is the purpose of psilocybin in mushrooms? why wouldn't evolutionary factors apply to them? just an example but say the mushrooms formed psilocybin to protect against a certin kind of parasite. in some places this parasite is found in higher concentrations than others, so naturally over time the mushroom in the location with the higher concentration of parasites would start to produce a higher amount of psilocybin to protect itself while the one with a lower concentration of parasites would be fine how it was, therefor because of regional diffrences you have one strain of the same species with a higher psilocybin content then another. it has been proven that some strains produce more psilocybin than others. though i agree that set and setting are more important factors than a mg or 2 diffrence in the amount of psilocybin this is not true:

Quote:

potency is all in the head... a cube is a cube. the only difference in strains are the region they were founded...




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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: John]
    #2644916 - 05/06/04 12:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Lets do the math.

1% versus .8 %

5 grams at 1% is 50 milligrams activity
5 grams at .8% is 40 milligrams activity.

This whole thread is getting absurd.

It is actually being implied that the MAJOR difference between eating 1 gram of Psilocybe cubensis and 2 grams, or 3 grams, is SET and SETTING, not quanity of alkaloids consumed.

There are actually people agreeing with this, and arguing it. 
:eek:


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: Zwieback0]
    #2645059 - 05/06/04 01:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Not me,I am saying that 5 grams of GT's are no different than 5 g's of B+,as far as a Noticeable difference goes.Those 5g's of GT's may contain 1% more active ingredients than the B+,but You will not "feel" a noticeable difference between the two Strains of Cubensis.But this is only my opinion,I'm far from stating facts here,just personal experience.
No trip is the same though, some people may have an awesome trip from 5 grams of Burma,and then take 8 grams of the same later on down the road, and may feel like they barely trip at all(I have witnessed this first hand,from the same batch ),explain that.Then later on eat 2 small fresh wild cubes that weighed in at 34 grams total(wet)and ended up having a better trip than the previuos 8 grams,and then last night eat 12.5 grams dry,and had a very "Logical problem",I witnessed my first "Analize this"trip,wasnt really blowed away,trip,but wasnt as high as I was when I ate the 8 grams,That was witnessed first hand.
No two trips are the same because of the state your mind is in at that time,set and setting does play a big role in the effectiveness of your trip-it has nothing to do with how potent they are if compared to same amounts taken,5 grams is 5 grams,6=6,10=10.
Thats my version of it.


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Anonymous

Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: doc34]
    #2645620 - 05/06/04 03:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

5 grams at 1% is more potent then 5 grams at .8 % in the same strain. So this would extend to different strains as well.

Essentially 4 grams of a 1% mushroom is equal to 5 grams of an .8% mushroom.
2 grams = 2.5 grams
1 gram = 1.25 grams

456 grams = 570 grams. That is a quarter pound more mushrooms per lb to get the same doses!!!

Pretty significant.


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2645752 - 05/06/04 03:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Wow its very significant...


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Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


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Re: Potency is largely a factor of the mind...Proof inside: [Re: ]
    #2645893 - 05/06/04 04:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

ok then someone needs to do a comparison with exstracted Psilocybine from 2 different strains and administer the exact doses to test subjects.
Screw the mushrooms,lets get to the source of the debate!


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