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OfflineSk8nshram
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Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa * 1
    #26344560 - 11/25/19 12:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think I may have found psilocybe subaeruginosa in Seattle yesterday. After getting home and cleaning the haul they definitely looked much different than any cyanescens we found. They could be a weird pheno, but I suspect subaeruginosa.





I found a patch with the same type of morphology in 2013 which I believe to be the same mushroom species.

2013 patch





Time to get one sequenced me thinks...


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Sk8nshram] * 1
    #26344908 - 11/25/19 03:04 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You are not likely to find P. subaeruginosa in Seattle, since that is a species occurring in Australia and New Zealand.

But its close relatives P. cyanescens and P. allenii are known to grow where you live, it is likely one of those.
I'm putting my vote on the latter.


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OfflineSk8nshram
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Anglerfish]
    #26344947 - 11/25/19 03:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I know of some people spreading subaeruginosa spores and culture around the pnw. That's why I suspected that. It definitely could be allenii, cyanescens, or azurescens as well. I never see a persistent umbo on allenii or cyanescens.


Edited by Sk8nshram (11/25/19 03:35 PM)


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InvisibleZenZone
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Sk8nshram]
    #26345106 - 11/25/19 05:00 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sk8nshram said:
I know of some people spreading subaeruginosa spores and culture around the pnw. That's why I suspected that. It definitely could be allenii, cyanescens, or azurescens as well. I never see a persistent umbo on allenii or cyanescens.




Yeah, they do look very interesting!

Here in the California Central Valley, the most common psilocybe species is allenii.
Out of azures, cyans and alleniis, to me they look like closest to allenii, but that umbo  almost never present. I'd send a specimen to Alan for dna sequencing.


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OfflineSk8nshram
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: ZenZone] * 1
    #26345229 - 11/25/19 06:09 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ZenZone said:
Quote:

Sk8nshram said:
I know of some people spreading subaeruginosa spores and culture around the pnw. That's why I suspected that. It definitely could be allenii, cyanescens, or azurescens as well. I never see a persistent umbo on allenii or cyanescens.




Yeah, they do look very interesting!

Here in the California Central Valley, the most common psilocybe species is allenii.
Out of azures, cyans and alleniis, to me they look like closest to allenii, but that umbo  almost never present. I'd send a specimen to Alan for dna sequencing.




I messaged him, awaiting his reply.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Sk8nshram]
    #26345460 - 11/25/19 07:59 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Very cool Psilocybe find! Unique mushrooms!

Im guessing they are Alleni. Although some have that nipple-like top that i see on Azures....


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OfflineDoug295
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26345840 - 11/25/19 11:37 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

If one carefully examines the ITS gene sequencing data (Thank you Alan, et al!), they will see an uncanny closeness between Australian P. subaeruginosa and Northern Hemisphere P. cyanescens group members (P. allenii and P. azurescens included). They look to be VERY close genetically.  In fact, some Australian P. sub samples are genetically closer to North American P. cyans samples than they are to other Australian P. sub samples and vice versa. I'm not saying that they are the same species, but they look damn close. My take on it, which I have shared on a few other posts, is that the North American members of the P. cyanescens group are the progeny of P. subaeruginosa that was inadvertently introduced to North America (and U.K.) back in or around the 1800's, probably the spores and/or mycelium hitchhiked along with botanical samples (e.g. Eucalypti) being exported out of Australia to the northern hemisphere.  The relative lack of phenotype variations among the North American species compared to the very diverse phenotype variations of P. subs in Australia (some Aussie P. subs phenos look EXACTLY like the North American species) , supports the theory, as evidence of the Founder Effect and genetic bottle-necking, what you would expect to see in a distantly translocated species. The crazy range of phenotypes in Australia, combined with the widespread occurrence in wild habitats there provides strong evidence that P. subaeruginosa is indeed indigenous to Australia, at least in my mind. Anyways, sorry for the long post, long story short, nice find! Perhaps they are indeed P. subaeruginosa. Cheers,
D


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Invisiblebreeg89
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Doug295]
    #26345856 - 11/25/19 11:51 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think allenii. Some of those in the 2013 patch do have a prominent umbo though.


Edited by breeg89 (11/25/19 11:57 PM)


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Doug295]
    #26346041 - 11/26/19 04:50 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Doug295 said:
The crazy range of phenotypes in Australia, combined with the widespread occurrence in wild habitats there provides strong evidence that P. subaeruginosa is indeed indigenous to Australia, at least in my mind.





Well, I'm doing a little "arm chair detective work" here. Psilocybe cyanescens was first collected in 1910 at Kew Botanical Gardens
in Surrey UK, but wasn't officially described as species until 1946. But I'm thinking the fact that this was first found in an environment
with a large amount of imported plants and trees, and the fact that P. cyanescens is usually found in man made habitats, speaks
against this being a native species of UK.

If we assume it is an imported species, where then are its origins? In my opinion, we have two contenders that are the most likely.
Either it came from Central Europe in the form of a species in the Psilocybe serbica complex, or it came from Australia as
Psilocybe subaeruginosa.  Both of these species seem to be more prone to growing in the wild than their more urban cousins.

Speculating a bit more though, it seems to me that out of the two, P. subaeruginosa appears to be more adaptable to man made
conditions. I could be wrong here of course, but seeing that P. subaeruginosa is found frequently with wild pine as well as in
wood chip beds, and P. serbica et al seem to stick to wild habitats, I'm inclined to think of P. subaeruginosa as the most
adaptable of the two.

This leaves us with a few possible narratives:

-P. subaeruginosa travels from AUS to UK and "becomes" P. cyanescens, leaving the Central European species out of the story.
-P. serbica travels from Central Europe to both UK and AUS and "becomes" both P. cyanescens and P. subaeruginosa respectively.

So which of the two alternatives are the most likely?

My vote is on the first, although it would help to know what substrate the early Kew finds were growing from.


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Anglerfish]
    #26346312 - 11/26/19 08:56 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure it's been established that Ps. cyanescens is NOT native to the UK.

As for op's specimens,  I'm going with Ps. allenii


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Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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OfflineSk8nshram
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Doc9151]
    #26346360 - 11/26/19 09:15 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I got a message back from Alan, he thinks they look like azurescens. I'll be sending him a sample to sequence as soon as I get more information.


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OfflineAnglerfishM
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Sk8nshram]
    #26346381 - 11/26/19 09:28 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
I'm pretty sure it's been established that Ps. cyanescens is NOT native to the UK.





Yes, I'm just trying to put this into an imagined narrative.

The question then will be - where in the world did it first grow?

Can we also assume that it is neither originally endemic to western USA, due to
its rare occurrence in the wilderness there? And if it originally came from western USA
into Europe/UK, why only that species and not P. azurescens and P. allenii - or even
P. baeocystis and P. stuntzii?

Quote:

Sk8nshram said:
I got a message back from Alan, he thinks they look like azurescens. I'll be sending him a sample to sequence as soon as I get more information.




Hey, that's cool. Exciting to hear the result.

Sorry for hijacking your thread with my Eurocentric musings.


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OfflineSk8nshram
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Re: Possible Psilocybe subaeruginosa [Re: Anglerfish]
    #26346393 - 11/26/19 09:40 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

No worries at all. The origins of some of these psilocybe species is quite the mystery and extremely interesting to chat about.


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