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saved7
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Heaven and Earth 1
#26340656 - 11/23/19 04:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Reality is structured around the Above-Below relationship between Heaven and Earth.
Heaven is the dominion of Meaning and purpose...
Earth is the material realm, which exists as a space to be filled by heavenly meaning from above.
This relationship could be described with a simple visual analogy of the pages of a book. In this analogy, heaven is the immaterial meaning housed within the material ink blots and paper.
The heavenly realm of meaning includes concepts of Love, Goodness, Righetousness, Charity, Patience, Perfection, Justice, Law, Morality.... Heaven ultimately provides the Light that illuminates and orders and makes distinctions between things.
In the abscence of heavenly meaning, there is only darkness and confusion. Distinctions and definitions break down.
The material world would be nothing but meaningless confusion without heavenly meaning to inform it.
I think to some extent, this is self-evidently true. Everyone knows life is full of meaning... we base our entire lives around meaningful ideas and language... yet we like to pretend that meaning is an entirely subjective illusion.
Throughout history there have been many people, philosophies, and religions that have grasped the basic truth of reality outlined above. For example the ancient Greek philosophy of Plato, (Platonism) had a basic grasp on this truth. In Platonism, it was understood that the objects found in the material world, were derived from their more perfect forms originating from a more perfect immaterial realm. The things found on earth were sort of like an imperfect shadow cast from a more perfect but intangible source. Likewise with Eastern systems like Daoism which echo many of the same basic ideas.
... This "architecture" of reality is recorded in the Bible. The Light of the World, the very Word of God, the cornerstone and foundation of all creation. The King of Kings, Lord of all Lords, The Most High... Jesus Christ, the Son of God and savior of the world.
Many spoke of this wisdom, yet Jesus Christ is the only one who came into the world and spoke in true authority as of the very creator of this reality... leaving behind thousands of eyewitnesses to his power and wisdom and authority.
Jesus came here and claimed to be God in the flesh. He defined himself as THE Truth. The Cross of Christ is like a cosmic stake through the heart of history. Jesus said he was the Son of God, come to lay down his life for the sins of the whole world... He died, bloody and nailed to a wooden cross, forgiving his attackers.
Jesus Christ is the anchor of all reality. Anything else falls short. Many other beliefs may grasp aspects of the wisdom of God but fall short of the ultimate truth.
Jesus spoke of heaven, the hidden things of the world. He testified of the majesty of creation. He testified that he would be the ultimate sacrifice for us, that his shed blood would cover all of our transgressions. If you only accept Him into your heart.. call out to Him as your savior.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
To be continued (hopefully)
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Morel Guy
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: saved7]
#26340678 - 11/23/19 04:35 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Glanced it over.
Jesus wasn't the only that spoke with authority. All humans do. It's a good bit of an issue.
Even Jesus gained doubt on the cross, and felt his powers abandoned him.
I think it's important to have concrete scientific understandings of who we are and the material universe we live in.
To go beyond in experience or imagination, we lose authority. It's difficult to prove esoteric dreams.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: saved7] 2
#26340733 - 11/23/19 05:01 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said: Reality is structured around the Above-Below relationship between Heaven and Earth.
It isn't. That's just one religion's framing of it. Other religions have other framings. Above/Below concept ... after-life.. heaven... torment placeholder.. was framed before Christianity even existed. The belief under this framing bled into science and people thought there was a literal ether (heaven outside of our atmosphere).. People then came to believe everything revolved around the earth. The church hid the science that contradicted it for ages... Reality is structured around truth. Whatever it is... it is. Whatever we come to understand about reality simply is the way it is. People have theories and they aren't facts until proven by science.
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saved7 said: Heaven is the dominion of Meaning and purpose...
Earth is the material realm, which exists as a space to be filled by heavenly meaning from above.
This relationship could be described with a simple visual analogy of the pages of a book. In this analogy, heaven is the immaterial meaning housed within the material ink blots and paper.
The heavenly realm of meaning includes concepts of Love, Goodness, Righetousness, Charity, Patience, Perfection, Justice, Law, Morality.... Heaven ultimately provides the Light that illuminates and orders and makes distinctions between things.
Proven by nothing. Just about every religion has a different theory/framing. None are wrong. If it helps you grasp things so be it. But please don't go around proclaiming this as if its the truth that is sensible. If I were to go and burn out some neural patches in your brain, you wouldn't know what any of those things are.
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saved7 said: In the abscence of heavenly meaning, there is only darkness and confusion. Distinctions and definitions break down. The material world would be nothing but meaningless confusion without heavenly meaning to inform it. I think to some extent, this is self-evidently true. Everyone knows life is full of meaning... we base our entire lives around meaningful ideas and language... yet we like to pretend that meaning is an entirely subjective illusion.
If you were born in a remote jungle with no outside contact, you : A.) would know nothing about christianity or the theology your a pronouncing as fact/reality B.) You wouldn't know language and would have to construct it over ages The illusion is the world we paint that isn't factual truth. This is one's subjective and willed experience that is all in their head. Religion is a big one.
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saved7 said: Throughout history there have been many people, philosophies, and religions that have grasped the basic truth of reality outlined above. For example the ancient Greek philosophy of Plato, (Platonism) had a basic grasp on this truth. In Platonism, it was understood that the objects found in the material world, were derived from their more perfect forms originating from a more perfect immaterial realm. The things found on earth were sort of like an imperfect shadow cast from a more perfect but intangible source. Likewise with Eastern systems like Daoism which echo many of the same basic ideas.
Now were getting somewhere.. and before the mentioned schools of thoughts there were civilizations elsewhere with religions, theology, and concepts that were the same that predated Greece/Rome by thousands of years.. Why a common understanding? Because the universe as plainly seen is what it is. If you stare at it and share yout thoughts about it for 1000s of years, eventually you discover and come to a consensus. You interpret the world through your senses. If you were deaf and blind, you wouldn't have anywhere near the understanding you do. Which highlights just how important the physical world is. It isn't an illusion. It's creation. There isn't some special sauce bathing you in understanding/emotions, its in your body.
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saved7 said: ... This "architecture" of reality is recorded in the Bible. The Light of the World, the very Word of God, the cornerstone and foundation of all creation. The King of Kings, Lord of all Lords, The Most High... Jesus Christ, the Son of God and savior of the world.
And here we go circling back to this... Before the bible 'recorded' it, other religions and civilizations did the same. They had their mystical figures just like 'jesus'. They had their Gods. They had their afterlife, spirits, and even a concept of the holy trinity. Monotheism didn't start with Christianity. So, it's clearly almost like philosophy/theology/theories get baked into a religion sometimes and those religions are theories/good framings that build upon old ones. At times when they become obsolete, new ones are created. Jesus is as real as Horus, Ra... They're concepts. Not magic people.
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saved7 said: Many spoke of this wisdom, yet Jesus Christ is the only one who came into the world and spoke in true authority as of the very creator of this reality... leaving behind thousands of eyewitnesses to his power and wisdom and authority.
Writing stories in a book doesn't make it fact. If for your own edification and progress, you need to believe in a particular story, so be it.
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saved7 said: Jesus came here and claimed to be God in the flesh. He defined himself as THE Truth. The Cross of Christ is like a cosmic stake through the heart of history. Jesus said he was the Son of God, come to lay down his life for the sins of the whole world... He died, bloody and nailed to a wooden cross, forgiving his attackers.
Before this dude named Jesus, there were other dudes. Civilizations wrote stories and magical tales about them, about creation, about 'heaven', about 'hell'. about spirits. about 'light'.. about 'the way'... about morality. Just because some civilization decided to make their own version of several of these religions doesn't make it fact. If anything, you should see the similarities and look beyond the characters for the themes and meaning because I can almost certainly tell you no human being has special powers and no one has ever accurately recorded any 'special' things happening on earth.
Quote:
saved7 said: Jesus Christ is the anchor of all reality. Anything else falls short. Many other beliefs may grasp aspects of the wisdom of God but fall short of the ultimate truth.
Jesus spoke of heaven, the hidden things of the world. He testified of the majesty of creation. He testified that he would be the ultimate sacrifice for us, that his shed blood would cover all of our transgressions. If you only accept Him into your heart.. call out to Him as your savior.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
To be continued (hopefully)
And yet another religious rant. Some part of me looks forward to the special mental gymnastics people are going to conduct in the years ahead namely the billions of people who fervently misinterpret and over-extend the metaphors outlined in religions
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340737 - 11/23/19 05:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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You can't conceive of the horror of excommunication if you've never experienced communication.
What is 'concrete scientific understanding' to the uninitiated? A suppositional theory.
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Morel Guy
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: You can't conceive of the horror of excommunication if you've never experienced communication.
What is 'concrete scientific understanding' to the uninitiated? A suppositional theory.
Care to clear that up?
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340747 - 11/23/19 05:05 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Which part are you having trouble with?
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Morel Guy
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The general wording and format with no clear point.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340758 - 11/23/19 05:11 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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A single instance of "communication" undoes "concrete scientific understanding" based on numerous testimonies. "concrete scientific understanding" is a misnomer.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340760 - 11/23/19 05:13 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: Glanced it over.
Jesus wasn't the only that spoke with authority. All humans do. It's a good bit of an issue.
Even Jesus gained doubt on the cross, and felt his powers abandoned him.
I think it's important to have concrete scientific understandings of who we are and the material universe we live in.
To go beyond in experience or imagination, we lose authority. It's difficult to prove esoteric dreams.
Indeed, I center on universal spirituality and scientific understanding. Religions are good when consumed in large quantities and not taken literally.. but metaphorically and old form language/storytelling to convey philosophy/theology.
Jesus in my mind was a metaphor for the truth. People often never see it when its around or recognize it. People try to use it for their own agendas. People get angry and upset and try to attack it when it doesn't fit their comfy world view. People crucify the truth daily only such that it rises higher. God indeed sent the truth and only one truth .. it's called 'creation'. Everything around you is what it is and nothing more. All one has to do is grasp and embrace it for what it is but people fall short namely because of the lies and stories they tell themselves that is apart from reality. Our primary sense is vision. It occupies the bulk of our brain. Without light you can't see.. Even a basic brained philosopher can mold a grand story around this 'thing' called light. It's like Philosophy story telling 101. It is an important thing though ... one the mind should ponder on deeply as we have.
Heaven/hell.. no one knows the nature of what these things are or if they even exist. What is true is that you can create it for yourself at any given moment depending on where you channel your energy.
Christianity and the bible are pretty good material. However, I doubt the point of it or any religion is to take the story-telling as literal. They are meant to convey understanding and thought forms (the end). Which is why I study all religions and cobble together the more pure understanding found in them. There are some pretty low level human reasons why Christianity took off and is so widespread... conquest/colonialism/violence stands out. It puzzles me how people can wrap their head in a pretzel in 2019 in the belief that its literal and real.. As if the tens of thousands of years of religion leading up to it were fake.. or as if other religions are wrong.
I prefer to talk about spirituality and raw truth/understanding. No religion holds a monopoly on that nor has an original story... I litmus test anything of questionable nature with science.
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Morel Guy
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: A single instance of "communication" undoes "concrete scientific understanding" based on numerous testimonies. "concrete scientific understanding" is a misnomer.
I have no idea what you are saying.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340771 - 11/23/19 05:16 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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The scientific understanding in this case is that you just don't get it.
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Morel Guy
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Are you huffing gasoline?
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340783 - 11/23/19 05:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: The general wording and format with no clear point.
Yeah I have no clue where his comment came from or what in the world it means I had a long form reply but deleted it as I was wondering what in the world I was replying to as well

Quote:
Buster_Brown said: The scientific understanding in this case is that you just don't get it.
Dude.. you replied to a particular post. Your key-point was : > Dude, excommunication is horrible. What was this in reply to? You talking about the excommunication of jesus or something? > Rambling about science and understanding .. and the lay Huh? What are you trying to say? An uneducated and uninformed person view science as random theories?
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Morel Guy
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26340788 - 11/23/19 05:23 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Excommunication to me since I have a catholic background is kicked out of the church.
I'm guessing he means meeting god then being sent to hell. Not sure.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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saved7
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26340955 - 11/23/19 06:33 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: Glanced it over.
Jesus wasn't the only that spoke with authority. All humans do. It's a good bit of an issue.
None so striking a figure as Jesus Christ. He has no comparison.
Jesus fulfilled numerous recorded prophecies from centuries before He was born on earth.
Jesus was basically an outcast from the religious authorities, yet spoke casually as a master of that religion, silencing His opponents with only a few words.
Eyewitnesses testified to His many miracles, His death on the cross, and His resurrection. Countless people died preaching His name.
Just as it is foretold in scripture, thousands of years ago, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was spread all over the world.
The teachings and the life of Jesus towers over all of history and literature, and philosophy, ethics, morality, etc. Wise men of the world are all trying to reach up to where He sits atop the holy mountain.
There really is no one else like Jesus.
There is power in His name.
Quote:
Morel Guy said: I think it's important to have concrete scientific understandings of who we are and the material universe we live in.
To go beyond in experience or imagination, we lose authority. It's difficult to prove esoteric dreams.
Having a purely materialistic interpretation of reality is like willingly wearing a blindfold. You have to keep telling yourself that your entire sense of reality (your sense of morality for example) is a delusion.
There is no 'scientific' explanation for the existence of meaning. Materialistic cosmology completely rejects the existence of actual meaning. Yet our entire human experience is based in meaning and meaningful encounters. Reality is infused with meaning. The truth is all around us, yet we suppress it because we know that road leads back to God and we don't want to surrender our own authority.
Jesus Christ is the foundation of all creation, and the anchor of all reality. Jesus is the cornerstone of all order and reason and meaning in the universe, the Logos. Jesus is the Word of God, the informing laws that govern nature. He is the Light that divides good from evil and reveals all things.
He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, for our salvation.
Jesus lives now as the Lord over all the heaven and the earth. If Jesus is who He said He was, then you reading have free access to His salvation right now, if only you call out for it.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
- Romans 10:9
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Morel Guy
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: saved7]
#26340981 - 11/23/19 06:43 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sounds like the usual WASP ate acid.
There are thousands of religions in India alone. What matters is not easy to describe.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: saved7]
#26341520 - 11/24/19 01:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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As within, so without.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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saved7
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: Morel Guy]
#26341686 - 11/24/19 05:09 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said: Sounds like the usual WASP ate acid.
There are thousands of religions in India alone. What matters is not easy to describe.
Who else was prophecied in ancient scripture the way Jesus was?
Who showed up as an outsider, speaking as a master over the very religious authorities that wanted Him destroyed?
Who had countless eyewitnesses testifying of His divine miracles?
Who sacrificed His own life, and foretold of His resurrection from the dead?
Who else was whipped, nailed to a cross, and run through with a spear, only to leave behind an empty tomb.
Who had numerous eyewitnesses testifying that the resurrected man walked among them, the nail-prints still in his hands.
Whose teachings served as the foundation of civilization itself? His very image pointed to as the ultimate symbol of all that is Good.
Go ahead, scour all the world and all of history. You will not find a figure even remotely in the same league as Jesus Christ.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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saved7
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: As within, so without.
As Above So Below
What I've realized is that many teachings considered axioms of wisdom all over the world, are actually presented to us in the Bible.
In the very Lord's Prayer..
Our Father, Who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name, They Kingdom come, Thy will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven...
As Above So Below, reflects the relationship between Heaven and Earth. And this relationship fractally repeats itself in a series of microcosms.
Actually it's all right there in the first two verses of Genesis.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Reality is described in a single picture right there. The Spirit of God(Meaning, Order, Language, Love, Grace, etc.) hovering over The Waters which are a dark undefined void of no meaning... essentially the darkness is like a womb waiting to be filled by God.
And right after this, following the Creation week in Genesis, we find the same pattern repeating itself, fractally within a series of continued microcosms.
Day 1 - Light separated from the Dark Day 2 - Waters Above separated from the Waters Below Day 3 - The Land separated from The Seas...
The Land and the Sea are an interesting microcosm of Heaven and Earth..
The Land is 'rock solid', stable, firm, clearly defined space, providing stability and footing and clear walkways for man. The Land is a place of clearly defined meaning.
The Sea, by contrast, is the opposite of that stability. It is fluid, always changing, and undefined space with no solid foundation. The Sea is a place of darkness and confusion.
The microcosms continue. Man himself, created in the Image of God, is a microcosm of Heaven and Earth. The 'earthy' part of man is in his mechanical limbs, the lower portion of the body, while his 'heavenly' aspect is in the upper portion, the Mind, the consciousness, the eyes that judge good and evil, and the breath that expresses meaning in speech.
And within human civilization we find the same pattern at play, with ancient Israel representing Heaven(Land), while the surrounding pagan nations represent Earth(Water)..
The Bible expresses these patterns throughout. Israel is consistently symbolized by dominion over the dry Land, while the nations that threaten Israel are consistently described as 'Waters' trying to wash them away.
The Exodus image of the parting of the Red Sea, where the Egyptian armies pursued the ancient Israelites... This is an image of the heavenly order of God(Israel/dry Land) passing through the darkness of confusion and chaos.(Egyptian Army/Red Sea)
This is how I've come to be more sure that the Bible is the very Word of God. I do not think dozens of authors over thousands of years could have organized such a cohesive fractal literary masterpiece.
The Bible comes alive to anyone that wants the truth. It is the Living Word.
The words of the Bible are the anchor of all of reality. And Jesus is THE Word of God.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John Ch. 1
When all the philosophers and mystics and alchemsits reach the top of the mountain, they will find Jesus Christ standing there waiting for them.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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saved7
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Re: Heaven and Earth [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26341806 - 11/24/19 06:57 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
r00tcmplx said:
Quote:
saved7 said: Reality is structured around the Above-Below relationship between Heaven and Earth.
It isn't. That's just one religion's framing of it. Other religions have other framings. Above/Below concept ... after-life.. heaven... torment placeholder.. was framed before Christianity even existed.
The other religions you speak of, may present some aspects of the truth (as all men ultimately descend from the same created Image of God, Adam), but none of those religions have the direct witness of a figure like Jesus.
Jesus Christ claimed to be the foundation of all creation, the very Word of God that framed the universe.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him.... ...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John Ch. 1
Jesus said:
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Jesus was there with ancient Israel.. the Manna from heaven in the wilderness, the Most Holy place in the tabernacle, long before He showed up on earth in the flesh of a man over a thousand years later.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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