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 DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
DeepDish said:
Genes are deselected? By what process? The simple act of dying has nothing to do with genes being selected or deselected. What is more important is whether the organism can reproduce or not. In the rest of the natural world, exculding humans, animals are subjected to highly limited resources. The organisms better able to exploit these resources, are more reproductivly successful, allowing there genes to be transferred to offspring. This is not analogous to humans, as almost every human on the planet, regardless of the "quality" of their genes is able to reproduce. For instance, lets assume you have a gene that gives you resistance to carbon monoxide related cancer, and I have one that makes me succeptible. At age 50 I die of cancer, and you live to 90. I, however, am able to pump out 10 children, while you have an only child. In a strictly evolutionary sense, I am more successful, as my genes have propogated more.
first of all, the longer an organism lives, the more children it is likely to have. Also, if an organism is better adapted to surviving, it will have more time to produce and rear offspring. Even though your specific example is contrary to my original point, that example is not typical of the general population. Organisms that live longer and are more proficient at survival in their environment will, on average have more offspring.
Furthermore, if your genetics are not suitable for the environmental conditions, passing them on to multiple offspring is only prolonging the inevitable. There ar more factors than just procreation at play in the process of evolution. Sex is not everything. Environmental conditions and the ways in which animals adapt in order to survive are a big factor. If sex was the only factor in evolution, then sex would be the only thing evolving. If the only determinant of evolutionary success was propagation, then all evolution would be driven towards building a more promiscuous, highly reproductive organism. There would be no need to develop beaks, claws, teeth, or brains capable of concieving abstract concepts.
Survival and reproduction are interrealated. Most females in any species tend to select their mates by assessing how capable that mate is of surviving in his environment. Thats why chix are instinctually attracted to buff guys; their evolved subconscious nueral processes tell them that these men will be good providers, in addition to being virile and fertile.
excessive reproduction might well be the end of our race. I believe that the advent of society and medical technology has made our overdriven urge to reproduce obsolete and possibly destructive. Since we are living longer, we are reproducing more, but we should be reproducing less. Because we are currently limited to just this planet, we need to carefully ration our resources so that we can have the required investment capital it will take to branch out into space. Our technology has allowed us to increase our population exponentially. Because of this effect, we would be wise to compensate by reproducing less. But it appears that our genetically determined instincts have not yet caught up with our technology. Hopefully, we will be able to adapt to this new influence; otherwise, I fear we are doomed.
Edited by DoctorJ (05/03/04 12:18 AM)
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ParabolaChair
newbie
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 29
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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 Re: Evolution  [Re: DoctorJ]
#2630578 - 05/03/04 01:19 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Absolutely my friend...However keep in mind that evolution is both a micro and macro level process...by increasing our productivity and effiency...through the bioengineering of foods such as rice, wheat, etc. we are effectively changing our evolutionary situation...Yes, while we are not dying off to natural diseases and thus not allowing our immune systems to evolve in the way they normally have since the begining of our species, we are also developing vaccinations and medincines to compete with biological threats...We are changing our lives to conform to how we believe the world should be...and in the process we are changing the very characteristics of human evolution that have been moving to this point of change since the begining of our specie...
Malthus argued the same thing in his writings on scarce resources...He believed that subsistence needs would fail to be met within years given a booming population and a lack of agricultural productivity...What he did not account for were leaps in productivity and efficiency...As new technology comes into existence, we are more and more able to increase production and sustain greater populations...In the malthusian model of economics, the only inputs are labor and capital...but the driving force in economic growth and productivity is technology, and as long as we have competition, new technologies will continue to arise that will prolong our subsistence needs...
When will we finally hit a dead end? That is to be seen.
Edited by ParabolaChair (05/03/04 01:23 AM)
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 Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Evolution [Re: Source]
#2630582 - 05/03/04 01:20 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Source said:
All Shroomism said was:
"Experience = Learning = Wisdom = Evolution"
He never said anything about DNA changing.
I believe that the mechanism of evolution is natural selection. With time, natural selection alters allele frequencies. Alleles are found on chromosomes and are made up of DNA. So, if Shroomism mentioned evolution, then I will mention DNA.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Quote:
Strumpling said:
"Light = cellular information/transmutation"
I'm totally losing you here
Perhaps he's saying that UV light is ultimately responsible for most mutations. Mutations are, after all, the ultimate source of new genes.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Evolution [Re: DoctorJ]
#2630600 - 05/03/04 01:23 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said:
Consider this:
Man develops a brain capable of concieving and implementing the combustion engine. As a result, combustion engines are everywhere, pouring noxious carbon monoxide into the air. People who tend to get cancer from overexposure to carbon monoxide begin to die off. Their genes are deselcted. Only those people whose systems are capable of processing the carbon monoxide will have a high likelihood of passing their genes on to the next generation. Thus, the human cardio vascular system continues to get stronger and more robust after many generations.
sometimes effects are causes as well. Everything is inter-related. Evolution is not a straight line, but a vast web of interaction.
A very lucid example. I understand. Thank you.
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ParabolaChair
newbie
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 29
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Not sure if you were implying this...
But the invention of the combustion engine in not some human psycho-evolutionary development, whereby once it has happened, everyone has this new brain capacity...it is spread through the diffusion of technology which is driven largely by economic forces...Just making sure thats clear 
Peace
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Quote:
DeepDish said:
To those who argue the sun is not a catalyst of evolution: think about it for 2 minutes. I'm quite sure you'll come to terms and understand you are a child of the sun. We are all born from it, and I do believe light contains information for our DNA, and I also believe stars are very important message carriers of the Universe. Similiar to Alexander Graham Bell's expirements with light communication.
The sun is a catalyst in evolution, it causes our DNA to mutate, a well studied and documented phenomena. DNA mutations due to electomagentic radiation are almost always bad, it is only the rare one that is actually beneficial. What exactly do you mean by "information", and "message carriers".
Well, I believe the Earth's Schumann Resonance (think of the Earth like a tuning fork) is directly related to the rythms of the Sun. Not only that, but, the oscillations of the human brain and the Earth's Schumann Resonance are directly linked. Well, if thats true for the Sun and Earth (which I believe is), then I'm sure its true for all systems in the Universe including stars.
Imagine this, you have a big tuning fork in a room generating a very low, loud, resounding note. In the room you have a secondary but smaller tuning fork. The smaller tuning fork is affected by the larger fork's reverberation. Well, with this its very possible to develop communication routines to setup information exchange. Now imagine multiple rooms. Well, in order for the tuning forks to keep on resounding, there must be a very large and perpetually vibrating tuning fork to keep all the other ones vibrating. ...The rythm matrix of Universe, and I believe the human brain is affected by it.
Not only that, thoughts themselves generate brain waves that are sent through the air. It is my personal belief that I am very sensitive to these vibrations because I seem to say what others think before they themselves say it at a (sometimes) very alarming frequency. I dont think I'm psychic or anything, I'm just saying rythms are very subtle and very effective in communication.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
Edited by psyka (05/03/04 03:27 AM)
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valour
Swordbearer
Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1,453
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: Evolution [Re: Sterile]
#2630943 - 05/03/04 07:34 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sterile said:
I disagree, I believe that thought AND action has that same power.
If thought and action has the same power, how come you had to "Act" on your keyboard instead of just thinking about what you wanted to type?
Doesn't work that way:
if both cars and planes are valid forms of transportation, why can't your car fly?
Quote:
Learning turns to wisdom, when you actually let it change some of your present ACTIONS, otherwise it just stays a nice theory...
One has to live with one's thoughts most of the time - we live in our heads.
Compare the lives of a depressed person and a happy person.
Thoughts are actions inside one's mind. This is all a silly and false dichotomy.
Quote:
freedom of moovement=freedom of thought
Thought is a great enemy when it comes to returning to the source of our existance.
When we first come to life, we moove, we dont think.THO, we learn by observing mooves and changes in our surroundings, IN FACT we learn in infinite more ways than we do with thought. Thought is one way of learning, there are billions.
By entering a trance state for example and dancing, people have been learning without thinking for thousands of years now.(Tribal tribes, shamans, ravers)
You're redefining "thought" for your own convenience.
Quote:
Evolution has nothing to do with our thinking, just with the pressure applyed on the pre-programmed human ACTIONS 
Mmmm....I love tautologies in the morning.
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"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 6 months, 25 days
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 Re: Evolution [Re: valour]
#2631063 - 05/03/04 08:22 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Without ACTION none of your thoughts or assumptions can be prooven to you as true valour...
Thought is the mother of lies. Nothing is real beyond this moment right now.
Thought requires time to exist. Action does not. Action is happening and nothing can catch up with that.
When we stop moving for a while, 50% of our immune system stops working.(fact)
One has to live with one's thoughts most of the time - we live in our heads.
This is the weakness of humanity, you are not obligated to live in there just because some-people told you thats the way...
The happy person is just happy, he doesnt think about it, the depressed person thinks he is depressed and gets down.Without thought he would easily <<see>> some of the magic around him.
Evolution is like a boat travelling, you can help it go faster, but you re on it anyway..
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The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Evolution [Re: Sterile]
#2631422 - 05/03/04 10:33 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sometimes the wisest action is to do nothing.
But then again, how would you know what to do if you did not think about it before you did it?
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
Edited by psyka (05/03/04 10:34 AM)
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 6 months, 25 days
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Re: Evolution [Re: psyka]
#2631543 - 05/03/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Very interesting point!
As the martial art legend put it.........
(Bruce Lee)
DON'T TRY TO DO IT, JUST DO IT
You don't need to think about it. It happens! Just trust the trance
The information is right here now, compressed between the past and the future, this very moment is both!!!!
You knew what to do before you learn thinking.You did many things.
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Evolution [Re: Sterile]
#2634016 - 05/03/04 07:53 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sterile said:
You don't need to think about it. It happens! Just trust the trance
The information is right here now, compressed between the past and the future, this very moment is both!!!!
You knew what to do before you learn thinking.You did many things.
I dont understand  . Could you possibly give an example or elaborate more?
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
Edited by psyka (05/03/04 07:53 PM)
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Source
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Phencyclidine,
You said, "I believe that the mechanism of evolution is natural selection".
I agree with you - so long as we are talking about biological organisms. But what is the mechanism of the evolution of language, art, music, mathematics, cutlure, literature, or technology?
There is another form of evolution which we are now collectively caught up in. We have pretty much transcended our own biological evolution. Our future now is moving at the speed of memetic evolution and things are building to a cresciendo.
Homo Habilus used the same stone tool design for hundreds of thousands of years! They didn't even think to tie it on a stick! They didn't think about things...they just repeated what they learned. How many hundreds of thousands of years did early man live until he finally figured out how to grow food? How many until he discovered physics? How many until he discovered how to harness and use energy? How many until he discovered the integrated circuit?
Notice how the time frames keep getting shorter before each big turning point for mankind? This is the speed of memetic evolution.
I'm not implying that Shroomism's original post was about this particular form of evolution. I only wanted to point out that there is more to who we are than the "hardware" of our naturally selected bodies.
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What you're searching for is what's searching.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Evolution [Re: Source]
#2635700 - 05/04/04 02:45 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Source said:
I agree with you - so long as we are talking about biological organisms. But what is the mechanism of the evolution of language, art, music, mathematics, cutlure, literature, or technology?
In biology, "evolution" is basically the history of biological development. By extension, in other contexts, "evolution" is gradual developement.
Language: I don't know.
Art: I don't know
Music: I don't know
Mathematics: I would guess progress (building on acquired knowledge)
Culture: I don't know
Literature: I don't know
Technology: I would guess progress (building on acquired knowledge)
Quote:
There is another form of evolution which we are now collectively caught up in. We have pretty much transcended our own biological evolution. Our future now is moving at the speed of memetic evolution and things are building to a cresciendo.
That sounds a little melodramatic, but if you're saying that now we have the ability to alter our genes and thus our biological evolution, then I would agree.
Quote:
I'm not implying that Shroomism's original post was about this particular form of evolution. I only wanted to point out that there is more to who we are than the "hardware" of our naturally selected bodies.
Well, you did a good job. I didn't respond to his post in that way (that 'knowledge = evolution') because that seems so self-evident that it doesn't require a reply. Obviously, one could view scientific progress as a form of evolution. Perhaps his idea was more complex but I had trouble deciphering it until now (if that's what he meant).
If that is what he meant, then I need further elaboration on his point. Was he suggesting that knowledge will also be key in ethically chosing how we can alter our evolution? I'm not sure I can gather what he may've been trying to suggest if your post is an indication of what he meant.
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 6 months, 25 days
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Re: Evolution [Re: psyka]
#2635889 - 05/04/04 04:13 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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When we first start our lives, we start mooving with no real purpose, not aiming to achive something, not thinking before we moove.
In this part of life described above, a person is capable of absorbing knowledge not by comparing events and things, but instead following its own mooves.
Actions-Moves- changes in the surrounded space all talk to our brains, BEFORE we think about them.
We are surrenderd to our actions, which (WTF?) seem to act by using a seperate knowledge base, a system of united timeless response.
We can all travell back to this type of energetic living just by returning to our source, which is this prototype of knowledge use. This is sometimes refered to as:"instant knowledge"
and i can assure you from personal experience that it is like infinite more than the usual memory-based perception.
The fact is that memory requires time when used in the modern fashioned way of searching the past with a purpose.
But as any kind of love, so is with your relationship with YOU, it needs to be .non selfish... if you want it to be real you have to give without waiting for a reply.
So you must give to yourself without a purpose, give all your perception has to offer. without waiting for an outcome.....
Thats when your ego is killed and the availiable memory can dig its way deep in the heart of your existance. All fields are open, cos you dont direct the energy flow anymore, you feel the cosmic unity.
Anything that happens has a direct connection to your memory of things.
It's like transforming your computers HD into RAM
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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come on Shroomism get your ass back in here!
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 3 days
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
Experience = Learning = Wisdom = Evolution
Makes sense. You actually can see it as a never ending cycle.
Experience = Learning = Wisdom = Evolution -> Experience = Learning = Wisdom = Evolution -> Experience = Learning = Wisdom = Evolution -> .....
MAIA
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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Evolution [Re: MAIA]
#2637135 - 05/04/04 02:15 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Makes sense. You actually can see it as a never ending cycle.
Experience = Learning = Wisdom = Evolution
No it doesn't make sense at all. Though it sounds good, there is no logic to it. Learning, experience and wisdom are genetically non-transferable. Some knowledge may be passed on, but that is not evolution.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension 
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Re: Evolution [Re: Swami]
#2637619 - 05/04/04 04:29 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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alright, here's my second formula
Creation x Time/Infinity + Destruction = Evolution
haha 
I think you guys thought I was talking about physical biological evolution. My fault.
I'm talking about mental/emotional/spiritual/psychic evolution.
There are many levels of evolution you know, for we and everything else is multidimensional. Human evolution in terms of spiritual development is but one layer of perception that contributes to the whole of the evolutionary cycle. It is by experiencing physical lives, (in which the purpose of life) is to gain wisdom, through experience. Wisdom from learning based on experience, can be utilized for the purpose of evolution. We are not just physical beings.
Species evolve physically over time, due to their behaviour and environment.
Similarly, human consciousness evolves etherically over time, due to thought patterns and life choices among other things. I am inclined to believe the different levels of evolution are interconnected and influence one another.
Here's a basic scenario for you Swami:
Man touches hot stove - pain - burn
man does not learn lesson, man touches stove again - more pain
this time man decides to not touch hot stove - no pain
man makes connection between touching hot stove and pain
Learning has just taken place after experience
In time, these lessons will accumulate and mature, and form into wisdom. For the etheric body is just as influenced by it's environment as the material form, the wisdom will become fodder for evolution of the soul.
Evolution is not some process that takes millions of years to notice. It is a constant process, that is occuring on every level in many different speeds - physical and non, and it is the nature of the universe - to evolve. Evolution equals perpetual new experience, and thus non-stagnation.
Every cause has an effect and vica versa. And in terms of life and consciousness, you do reap what you sow.
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Evolution [Re: Sterile]
#2638131 - 05/04/04 06:18 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I understand what you're saying (and I agree, but I believe you've misplaced it  ). Buttt, heres a question for you:
What if you wished to do something in your free time. Describe what you would do.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
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