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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
A case of always improving.
    #26338767 - 11/22/19 06:22 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

How alive is an electric fence if it’s overall more energetic than a worm, like when a fence pulses on a timer.

And to that, is it actually far fetched to suggest a different kind of lifeform? One that straight up is electrical pulses, logistics and logic?

A life form as simple as a jellyfish. No brain, just pulses, a flap flap here and there. Still complex and beautiful, capable of stinging, reproducing and feeding, of a diverse amount of forms; from Irukandji to Lion’s Mane jellyfish.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26338879 - 11/22/19 07:19 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think it could be said that an electric fence is a bottom shelf form of AI.  Like how a jellyfish or some other simple life form is a relative bottom shelf life form.  I don’t think we can start referring to AIs as life forms like you and me until they themselves are capable of it.

Then again you have the notion of ET life that may be vastly different from humanity’s definition of life, so it’s a relative thing.  But in terms of life on earth I figure you have organic life and man made systems that at some arbitrary point may be referred to as life or AI.  An electric fence is definitely basic AI without any “higher” manifestations. 


Edited by Yellow Pants (11/22/19 07:25 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26338916 - 11/22/19 07:36 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I just threw out a flashlight because the solid-state circuitry failed and I couldn't fix it, therefore it wasn't an improvement in design. Same with computerized gimmicks in automobiles, if they're beyond the capability of the average handyman to maintain then they really can't be an improvement.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26338981 - 11/22/19 08:05 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The specialized adaptation of life can be viewed as an improvement of an organism in reference to the conditions it encounters. The condition of computer technology engenders specialized technicians, but can the manipulation of conditions to which technicians have to adapt truly be an 'improvement'?


Rather than adapting humans to the conditions perhaps a real improvement is in adapting the conditions to the human.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26338999 - 11/22/19 08:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

We might equate jellyfish with stimulus/response making it more like an electric fence than a human. We might separate humans from electric fences by suggesting that fences don't feel, aren't conscious, can't think but on a cellular level but jellyfish and humans are much more alike than an electric fence. How do we know that a jellyfish doesn't have some capacity to feel, think, or experience consciousness?

I tend to think of life as manifesting from cells, and perhaps all organisms are doing things that are essentially cellular expressions.

Maybe electric fences are alive in a way. Whether my ideas on cellular expression notably differ from what's happening with an electric fence is hard to say.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26339021 - 11/22/19 08:25 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

In my opinion, the condition an ‘AI’ like an electric fence would encounter is technological development from humans.

It’d be a co-evolution, a sort of symbiotic relationship in my view.

Or adapting to the condition of the humans.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Rahz]
    #26339029 - 11/22/19 08:29 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

If you think a jellyfish is all those things without a brain, aren’t you suggesting that a sole nervous system could be able of all you’ve said?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26339121 - 11/22/19 09:10 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If you think a jellyfish is all those things without a brain, aren’t you suggesting that a sole nervous system could be able of all you’ve said?




I'm not sure what you mean by sole nervous system. The basic gist of my idea is that organs are just higher level functions of things cells were already doing.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26339216 - 11/22/19 09:55 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

A jellyfish has no brain, only a nervous system, and you’re asking if they have some capacity to feel, think, or experience consciousness.

If they do, they can do it without a brain.

And what they can do it with is either their nervous system or some ‘higher force’, like god or undiscovered theories etc.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26339412 - 11/23/19 01:21 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The AI fence is anchored, though. It doesn't wander around using itself to shock prey to consume for nutrition; it's purpose is different. I agree it could be argued as a step to AI, however.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26339473 - 11/23/19 04:18 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

if that electric fence metabolized and reproduced maybe then it would be alive.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26339833 - 11/23/19 10:10 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

And what they can do it with is either their nervous system or some ‘higher force’, like god or undiscovered theories etc.




Chemotaxis could be argued to be a type of feeling. What causes consciousness? What is thought but the interaction of impulses?

Mycelium, not having a nervous system must still have some form of communication, otherwise every fungal cell would try to exhibit it's full genetic potential or just randomly specialize somehow resulting in a mushroom.

So again, specialized organs seem to be doing something at a higher level that cells were already doing.

Insects have brains and we still question whether they think, feel or experience consciousness. We only agree that such things occur when they are anthropomorphic to a degree that seems undeniable.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (11/23/19 10:27 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Posts: 10,798
Re: A case of always improving. [Re: Rahz]
    #26343378 - 11/24/19 08:20 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

What if it’s artificial life, it doesn’t have to be intelligent.

And what if the condition they encounter is technological development from humans.

A sort of Convergent evolution where similar traits develop because of a similar environmental challenge. Suggesting they develop with human advancements.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26343892 - 11/25/19 05:10 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

so far, the Anthropocene has been too short to produce significant evolutionary results, although it has already produced significant environmental impacts which are selective pressures.

what we are seeing is extinctions, and new dependencies on human interventions such that agricultural species are now totally dependent upon large scale industrial farming and fishing, and we are mostly dependent upon the product of that activity.

this aspect of evolution is not too exciting but I think it is what you are talking about.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #26344338 - 11/25/19 10:33 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The standards for "life" are pretty strict, but I don't have a problem seeing life in other aspects of being. Specifically, consciousness is a quality of the living. Some will argue that not all life is conscious. Some will argue that the universe is conscious, or is consciousness, and while I can understand the idea I tend to equate consciousness with organisms displaying exact anthropomorphic qualities, having the ability to not only collect and manipulate data but to also be aware of these functions.

In this sense we could draw basic parallels between an electric fence and a basic life form like bacteria if we assume bacteria isn't conscious. Both have the ability to accept inputs and convert them into outputs. This is not completely dissimilar to a rock absorbing various forms of radiation and releasing them as IR.

But is bacteria conscious? If not, what function between the cellular level and more evolved brains gave consciousness birth? It's a mystery.

We can also draw parallels between the most advanced AI and the fence and the rock. AI can certainly do a better job at providing the perception of being conscious but if it's not actually conscious then it's really no different from the rock except as a matter of complexity. Either we aren't conscious, or rocks are conscious, or there's a difference except we don't know what it is.

In a similar but more reasonable vein, it could be said that all systems are intelligent, the difference being a matter of degree or how much they mirror our own systems. So for me, the question of life is closely tied to the question of consciousness. Rocks can't reproduce but a robot with strong AI could replicate itself. Programming, free thinking and desire, accident. The accidental replication might seem to most closely parallel evolution, avoiding the question/idea of conscious intent. Programmed replication would satisfy one of the requirements for life. To think freely and consciously act on one's desires... do we think freely? Are we even really conscious? There doesn't seem to be enough data to conclude this discussion with reasonable answers. :smile:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (11/26/19 02:55 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: A case of always improving. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26382416 - 12/14/19 11:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Electric fences are like algae to me in context of technology evolving alongside human research and development.

MRI's are more evolved and came later than the electric fence.

There is a 'phylogenetic tree of technological development', from transistor to voltaic piles and dynamos, vacuum tubes and solid state technology; all birthing through galvanism.

I'm talking about the evolution of technology; the history of our invention.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinekitten6
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Re: A case of always improving. [Re: sudly]
    #26393508 - 12/21/19 05:29 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

To answer that question I think, there needs to be a more standard, at least for this thread, definition of life. For me life is something that uses some kind of signalling, and is self sustaining.

A life form that is just straight up electrical pulses, logistics and logic?

If it had to be something that exists, I'm thinking it would have to be something really big, something that always was and will, at least for our dimensional perception. Something that can travel through a vacuum, a large fungus? A fungal system?



Very interesting indeed. What if all energy is part of a conscious body, the soul, the spirit. One big fungus, in fact Paul Stamets has a lot to say about that, it's part of his theory.


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