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OfflineKazoo_bard
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Registered: 09/27/19
Posts: 138
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Avoiding buying anymore spores
    #26338505 - 11/22/19 04:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I just got some 500ml media bottles and a bunch of other agar stuff.  I would like to use one of my last two spore syringes to get 3 mono tubs going. I'm going to start them into agar first. I know that agar to agar transfers will eventually loose steam after a few generations.
Can I just keep cloning fruit to agar and essentially avoid ever buying spores for that variety again?


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Offlinefootpath
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Registered: 07/16/19
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Kazoo_bard]
    #26338511 - 11/22/19 04:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

To an extent. Take spore prints.


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: footpath] * 1
    #26338513 - 11/22/19 04:19 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It takes a long time to lose vigor. I wouldn't worry about that. Repeatedly cloning can get wonky though. Take prints and clone. You can also keep early transfers chilled so, if your need to, you can go back to earlier cultures.


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OfflineKazoo_bard
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Registered: 09/27/19
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Failboat]
    #26338531 - 11/22/19 04:28 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Can anyone describe what happens when you get too many clones deep?  Just shitty degradation and puny shrooms, or do you get some really ugly monatrosities?

Also, what's a good tek to follow for taking prints.  Everything I've seen in the noob teks basically makes it sound like that's one of the hardest things to do with this hobby and keep sterile.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Kazoo_bard]
    #26338539 - 11/22/19 04:31 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Prints are easy just put a cap om some foil and cover with a cup. It doesn't have to be
sterile, that's what agar is for. Try to keep it as clean as possible but it's nowhere near difficult to take a print


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InvisibleDeckardCain
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Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 236
Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Kazoo_bard]
    #26338540 - 11/22/19 04:33 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Your prints will never be sterile. But that is what agar work is for anyways


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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Registered: 10/17/19
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Kazoo_bard]
    #26338571 - 11/22/19 04:56 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kazoo_bard said:
Also, what's a good tek to follow for taking prints.




I intend to follow bod's print TEK when I get shroomies. Seems clean & easy.


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: curious.psychonaut]
    #26338626 - 11/22/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You actually can make pretty sterile spore prints. My favorite way is to let an agar plate pin and then drop spores inside the sealed plate. It makes a small print but a clean print.


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OfflineKazoo_bard
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Registered: 09/27/19
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Smartattack]
    #26338656 - 11/22/19 05:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

That's good to know about them never being truly sterile.  Does anyone have experience with going too many clones deep?


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Offlinechinaman9
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Registered: 11/02/18
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Kazoo_bard]
    #26338852 - 11/22/19 07:08 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I have wondered also about how many generations of clones you can take before it has a negative effect on outcomes. Would like to know more.

I'm also wondering about this: What if I have a colonized grain jar and do G2G to 8 other jars. When they are colonized I spawn 7 of them and use one as a master for 8 more. Repeat. Would that ever lead to senescence or problems?? It seems like it's all just one generation of mycelium spreading itself and would never get old.


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:chinaman:


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Offline99.99
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Smartattack]
    #26338868 - 11/22/19 07:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smartattack said:
You actually can make pretty sterile spore prints. My favorite way is to let an agar plate pin and then drop spores inside the sealed plate. It makes a small print but a clean print.




Like this... i can even put mine in the freezer  because I know the spore will be fine




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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Registered: 10/17/19
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: chinaman9]
    #26338900 - 11/22/19 07:28 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chinaman9 said:
I have wondered also about how many generations of clones you can take before it has a negative effect on outcomes. Would like to know more.

I'm also wondering about this: What if I have a colonized grain jar and do G2G to 8 other jars. When they are colonized I spawn 7 of them and use one as a master for 8 more. Repeat. Would that ever lead to senescence or problems?? It seems like it's all just one generation of mycelium spreading itself and would never get old.




Both cloning and g2g are "just one generation of mycelium" (no new spores involved), so this is exactly where senescence occurs. After some combination of time and volume grown, the mycelium will weaken and die.


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My LAGM2020 grow log



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InvisibleDeckardCain
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Registered: 09/22/12
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: 99.99]
    #26338974 - 11/22/19 08:01 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

99.99 said:
Quote:

Smartattack said:
You actually can make pretty sterile spore prints. My favorite way is to let an agar plate pin and then drop spores inside the sealed plate. It makes a small print but a clean print.




Like this... i can even put mine in the freezer  because I know the spore will be fine







as so basically as long as you freeze it right away and forever until you need it they wont germinate


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: curious.psychonaut]
    #26338983 - 11/22/19 08:05 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The solution is making masters.

Take the initial culture you like to many slants/plates, each of those will be your first expansion. Then, from each of those masters, you make many more of what will be your second expansion.
If, from your original clean culture, you transfer 10 masters, then take 10 transfers from each of those 10, you'll have 100 cultures that are only at their second expansion.
You can make it quite exponential quite quickly without stretching out your culture.


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OfflineKazoo_bard
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Registered: 09/27/19
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: footpath]
    #26339757 - 11/23/19 09:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So, you can stretch a culture quite a ways pretty quickly, but at some point you will need to end up back at spores.  And so you will either need to take prints or buy premade. Either way, at some point, spores are inescapable.


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: Kazoo_bard]
    #26339779 - 11/23/19 09:53 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

At some point.
I imagine it's long stretch to get there.
I've personally only extended a culture G2G ~8 times, I didn't see any noted differences.
I'm sure some of the more prolific members here have gone much further.


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Offlinemushman1017
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: footpath]
    #26339874 - 11/23/19 10:26 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So you guys are saying that if lets say you start with a first generation spore syringe, grow it out, take a clone from that to agar... and use that agar to make more agar from transfers, or doing g2a (after having fully colonized grain)... if you keep taking agar transfers in those manners, eventually it will run out and not produce?

So then you have to make a spore print to create a new "strain" and then that will have to be the new culture you use in the future?  How can you tell if you are getting to the end of usable agar? Will you only know once you fruit and it doesnt produce well?


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OfflineGrimsweeper
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: mushman1017]
    #26339893 - 11/23/19 10:38 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

By the time you'll ever need to be concerned with your culture weakening you'll be bored with it and want to try something new. Clone, take prints, trade in the marketplace.


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: mushman1017]
    #26339896 - 11/23/19 10:39 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You've got the idea.
I don't have any personal experience with a culture that has reached a point in losing vigor,
but you can search for 'senescence' or simply 'loss of vigor' or something along those lines. There's some decent information around, especially pertaining to Agaricus bisporus.


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OfflineKazoo_bard
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Registered: 09/27/19
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Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Avoiding buying anymore spores [Re: footpath]
    #26340288 - 11/23/19 01:30 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Gotcha, plus with careful cloning and management of your "trees" of growth.  You should be able to make A LOT it would seem.  Starting at a spore string, make 10 agar plates, make one into a massive jar of lc, freeze 8, use the other to make 10 more agar plates, inoculate 20 or 30 grain jars with that. Make jars out the ass with the liquid culture, and you still have 8 first or second gen plates depending on how long it took to clean it down.  A bucket of early gen lc and then theres the aspect of taking clones to make another set of plates and more LC. Assuming you keep track of everything. It seems like you could conceivably take a single syringe and stretch it to literally thousands of grain jars within the first 5 or 6 generations, and have gallons of culture on hand. Not to mention tons of preserved early plates to keep stretching g from.  But EVENTUALLY you would need to take your own spore print.  But by that time you should be pretty good with sterile work and agar that it should be a breeze.
This is just my take on it and piecing together what I've seen on different posts on here.  Does that sound about right?


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