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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars
    #26332857 - 11/20/19 07:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I can think of two ways to proceed after PC-ing jars (I use a SAB). The first is standard practice in canning and also recommended by RR and many other experienced growers.
  • (1) leave PC closed and leave to cool (usually overnight); on the next day, immediately before working on them, remove (room-temperature) jars from PC and place in SAB
  • (2) bring pressure down ASAP in a safe manner (I use the 3-stage valve on my PC to slowly bring to 10psi and then equalize); remove (hot) jars from PC (making sure caps are tight) and place in SAB; remove foil (if any) and leave to cool (usually overnight)
The reasoning behind (1) is that the long cooling process happens in a (quasi) sterile environment inside the PC, so it's gotta be safer. But when I open my PC in the morning it's (obviously) very damp inside. Even though I cover the caps snugly with foil, there are droplets on the polyfil / micropore tape is always wet. At room temperature, filters take a long time to dry and are hospitable to contams in the process.

With (2) the filters are hot and dry quickly. Is there any reason not to prefer (2), incl. any extensive experience with both methods and seeing a clear contam difference in favor of (1)?

I have a feeling (1) might have been handed down as the traditional recommendation for canning (where its main reasoning seems to be safety/fool-proofing) but may not be best for our purposes. OTOH, I may be the fool who is underestimating the safety aspect and wrongly assuming that (2) cannot result jar explosions.


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: curious.psychonaut]
    #26332870 - 11/20/19 07:53 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

You can leave em for a day or two, you can take em out while hot and give em a shake to distribute moisture, you can set em right on the shelf. If the filter is good it doesnt matter. 

I dont recommend to force the pressure down faster than it naturally goes when you turn the PC off as it can be dangerous as well as dry out the grains a bit.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: Psicomb]
    #26332876 - 11/20/19 07:59 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I always pulled jars as soon as the pressure dropped down, which took maybe 30m to an hour in my presto (been a bit). Hot/cold doesn't really matter, in my opinion. Just put them on a towel to prevent heat shock from a cold countertop.

Common misconception is that a PC stays sterile until opened. It does not. Unless you have an autoclave valve (you do not, based on your post), the PC stops being sterile as soon as it is taken off heat and the pressure begins to drop--this means that outside air is being slowly sucked in as the steam condenses. Outside air is not sterile.


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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: Kryptos]
    #26332967 - 11/20/19 08:49 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Common misconception is that a PC stays sterile until opened. It does not. Unless you have an autoclave valve (you do not, based on your post), the PC stops being sterile as soon as it is taken off heat and the pressure begins to drop--this means that outside air is being slowly sucked in as the steam condenses. Outside air is not sterile.




Very good point, thanks! So we have wet filters sitting for hours in a damp environment that is not sterile but at a very good incubating temp. If the filter is thick, like polyfill, maybe it doesn't make a big difference, but it seems to be risky for wet micropore, esp. if it somehow soaked in a bit of nutrients.


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: curious.psychonaut]
    #26332996 - 11/20/19 08:57 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

SFD and polyfil if used properly witll keep moisture and microbes out of the jar no worries. I don't even wait for my PC to air cool. Set it in the sink and run cool water over it. Drops pressure in like 30 seconds. For some reason my water causes galvanic corrosion so I like to get my units open, empty, and dry ASAP. Once I open the lid I dab the jars to dry em off. Before lifting I ensure the lids are secure as often the become slightly loose in the PC. I pull em out dry the bottom off and set on a nice lil drying mat to cool while ai run the next load.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: Failboat]
    #26333369 - 11/20/19 11:51 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

2 puts extra thermal stress on your jars which can weaken them over time and they may become susceptible to cracking. It also wastes energy. You spend a lot of time heating them up why not make the most of it and let the heat continue to do it's work as long as possible after you shut it off. Dropping the pressure suddenly can cause water in the spawn/agar to suddenly vaporize which may or may not cause problems depending on the circumstances.


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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: Kizzle]
    #26333518 - 11/20/19 12:56 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
2 puts extra thermal stress on your jars which can weaken them over time and they may become susceptible to cracking. It also wastes energy.




Ah, maybe the weakening over time is the whole point of the exercise then. It didn't occur to me that it can add up like that, but glass being what it is, I guess it makes sense.

Not sure about the energy waste though, it seems rather small, considering that the pot cools like this:
.
The time spent at useful (very hot) temperatures is rather short. I guess one could wait 30min-1h to make use of it. After that, it quickly becomes more like incubating temperature for baddies, so the energy starts to work against us.


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Offlinesporecap
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: Kryptos]
    #26333561 - 11/20/19 01:17 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Common misconception is that a PC stays sterile until opened. It does not. Unless you have an autoclave valve (you do not, based on your post), the PC stops being sterile as soon as it is taken off heat and the pressure begins to drop--this means that outside air is being slowly sucked in as the steam condenses. Outside air is not sterile.



This is not completely correct. During cooling, as long as there is a positive pressure differential in the PC i.e. the reading on the pressure gauge is larger than zero, steam will continue to escape the PC and absolutely nothing will get sucked in.
Only when the pressure reaches zero, it will start to pull in air from the outside as the inside cools down.
Unless it has an autoclave valve as you said. Before that, the inside is not contaminated by outside air.

Also speeding up the cooling process is not recommended (even stated in the manual), as this can lead to dangerous material fatigue and warping, violent overboiling/delayed boiling/defervescence, bursting of grains, etc. Afterall, it is not needed since the PC will be sterile until it reaches 0psi on its own.
Just take the jars out and let them cool down in your SAB, but don't do anything else at the same time since the hot jars will start air currents flowing around in the SAB.
I even leave them outside to cool. Heck, we let them colonize outside of a SAB and they don't contam, that's what the filter is for.

Edit: This is basically what you are doing to your PC if you put it under cold water to cool down


Edited by sporecap (11/20/19 01:25 PM)


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: curious.psychonaut]
    #26333572 - 11/20/19 01:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The jars contents will cool even more slowly. In any case I would at least wait for the pressure to drop to 0 on it's own and not try to speed it up by releasing it.


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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: sporecap]
    #26333672 - 11/20/19 02:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sporecap said:
Also speeding up the cooling process is not recommended (even stated in the manual)



My PC's (some Spanish brand, stainless steel) manual just lists the three ways to bring the pressure down before opening, without indicating any preference:
  • wait
  • use the 3-stage valve [which takes several minutes per stage]
  • cold water
But yeah, understood that it makes sense to wait until the pressure drops by itself, as Kizzle & you suggest in multiple good points. I believe the cooker can handle it; it's not a can of coke; but why stress the jars? Though, after equalization, it's just sitting in a non-sterile, damp environment with wet filters and (soon) good temperature to grow things. It probably won't happen (valve, filters, foil still make it mechanically unlikely) but seems possible, esp. with a thin, wet filter like micropore tape.

Additionally, taking out hot jars and drying the filters quickly in the SAB seems advantageous. Plus, they will be completely dry when it's time to handle the jars/caps.

This procedure seems best to me, so far:
  • vent 10mins (I do this @ 15psi as well)
  • sterilize @ 15psi for desired amount of time
  • remove heat; after indicator drops by itself, place hot jars in SAB (on plastic/wood/towel); remove any foil
  • next morning: enjoy dry room temp jars with dry filters


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OfflinemeaculpaUIO
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: curious.psychonaut]
    #26333788 - 11/20/19 02:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Is there a cutoff or a "maximum" value for how low celcius temperature you can expose cooling jars to? Difficult question for sure.

I bet people do rapid cooling out of impatience and wanting to get the work out of the way; they arent really acting evil or stupid, they just want to get on with the process.

Such a number would be extremely nice to throw around the Shroomery, as I have been noticing the first cracks in my jars. I've been cooling jars in the refrigerator, which I will stop with from reading this thread, but I'm wondering if regular room temperature also will speed up the detoriation of the jars.

It would also help ending bac practice


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Offlinecurious.psychonaut
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Re: Sterile procedure after PC-ing jars [Re: meaculpaUIO]
    #26333821 - 11/20/19 03:10 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meaculpaUIO said:
Is there a cutoff or a "maximum" value for how low celcius temperature you can expose cooling jars to? Difficult question for sure.





Some lab equipment (and a Chemex glass coffee-maker I have) list max temp differentials (not absolute temp), e.g. +-100C. But jar glass is of much lower quality and I guess there are no values one can rely on, as manufacturers can respec the glass at any time and have probably done so in the past?

However, this is all when exposing the glass to a medium that can rapidly transfer energy to/from it, such as water or a metal plate. If the jar only contacts air and a towel or plastic underneath, you are probably pretty safe as soon as the pressure indicator drops.


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